[BudFox]

Since I had a traumatic therapy rupture 9 months ago, have tried or interviewed 11 new ones in attempt to find some help. Plus consulted on phone with a few more. Saw latest today for second session.

Even though new T is nonjudgmental, considerate, is not aggressive with interpretations or advice, I still feel demeaned. There is this background presumption, even if very subtle, that ultimately he will know better than I. And if he does not, we will both end up pretending he does. Today he told me a number of things I already knew.

With most of the Ts I have seen, I leave feeling slightly used. I think I need to find other ways to heal.

Who can relate?

[Leah123]

Therapists have expertise, part of the reason we see them, so I consider that an integral facet of the process. But I am the expert on myself, and my therapist respects that, respects my intuition, my judgement, my decisions, etc.

I suppose I can relate as I saw a therapist somewhat like that years ago, and found it demeaning, but that was her, not all. A therapist who thinks they know more about me than I do in general isn't the right therapist for me. Of course, they will have insights, objectivity, I don't, but my therapist's observations have to ring true to me to be valid my therapist says.

If you don't want to see someone who knows more than you about psychology, have you considered a support group or other type of structure, like a class?

[stopdog]

I have found a problem to be they don't just stick to knowing more about psychology or therapy - but that they think they know more about the client. And they refuse to give the info on therapy itself.

[Crescent Moon]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I have found a problem to be they don't just stick to knowing more about psychology or therapy - but that they think they know more about the client. And they refuse to give the info on therapy itself.

I thought the second one was more forthcoming?

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by Crescent Moon

I thought the second one was more forthcoming?

I think she may have been secretly doing that right brain thing at me without telling me.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I think she may have been secretly doing that right brain thing at me without telling me.

Well - you have been presenting yourself to her. I think it would be unethical for her to take your money and do nothing, even if you insist that is what you want. Would you do that with one of your clients? Like when someone wants to represent themself in court, the judge assigns them a lawyer to help them anyway.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by hankster

Well - you have been presenting yourself to her. I think it would be unethical for her to take your money and do nothing, even if you insist that is what you want. Would you do that with one of your clients? Like when someone wants to represent themself in court, the judge assigns them a lawyer to help them anyway.

It is the without telling me that is demeaning.

And as a lawyer - if someone wants to represent themselves but the court orders me to stay - I don't get to do anything they don't want me to do. Indeed, if they do not want my help - I do just sit there quietly.

[Crescent Moon]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I think she may have been secretly doing that right brain thing at me without telling me.

She seems to be the type, though, that if you asked her directly, she would give you a fair answer. I'm sure I missed something along the way - I'm not sure what 'that right brain thing' is?

[stopdog]

I think I should stop participating in hijacking this thread.
OP - feeling demeaned is not good. Have you tried meditation/yoga sorts of things if therapy does not work for you?

[Pennster]

Budfox, I wonder if you've talked to anyone with a slightly more Buddhist focus? My current therapist is a Buddhist and he is extremely respectful and non-hierarchical. I would be very sensitive to issues of power and hierarchy and all that generally, but he has never made me feel that he has any notions of superiority, and he is very explicit about not having any kind of superior knowledge or understanding of my situation. I find him very helpful, not in any way demeaning. I think some part of this attitude is due to the way Buddhism seems to have influenced the field of psychology in recent years - I have read a few books that seem to share his attitude.

[Salmon77]

My impression is that if the therapist is not doing or saying anything in particular that you can point to as demeaning, then the "demeaned" feeling is not caused by their actions but rather by your attitude towards them.

He should know some things better than you, at least within his field of study, assuming that you do not have the same educational background. That's why he gets paid. This does not mean he is smarter than you or that he knows more than you about everything always. But about psychology and therapy, well, I hope he knows more than his clients, otherwise he shouldn't have a degree.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by Salmon77

My impression is that if the therapist is not doing or saying anything in particular that you can point to as demeaning, then the "demeaned" feeling is not caused by their actions but rather by your attitude towards them.

He should know some things better than you, at least within his field of study, assuming that you do not have the same educational background. That's why he gets paid. This does not mean he is smarter than you or that he knows more than you about everything always. But about psychology and therapy, well, I hope he knows more than his clients, otherwise he shouldn't have a degree.

Therapists can also be (and I think should be) consumers of therapy themselves

[Salmon77]

Sure, they can be. I guess what I'm trying to say (and it's possible I'm projecting a bit, because it's something I've thought about for myself) is that, for a pretty smart person, it may feel odd and uncomfortable to feel less informed or less prepared than someone else. But if you are a non-expert paying someone for their knowledge, it is good and proper that this person knows more than you and it's not demeaning for them to show that they do (provided they're not insulting about it). If the two people have the same training that changes the dynamic, I'm sure, but if that's the case here, OP didn't mention it.

[ManOfConstantSorrow]

Today he told me a number of things I already knew. - This seems quite likely to happen from time to time, after all you are not new to therapy and are presumably not an inexperienced youth - were you able to tell him?

I think if a person has been in therapy before, the situation of the therapist telling them something they already know is inevitably going to come up.

I find that I have to participate actively in my therapy by stating directly what is concerning me or what I keep getting stuck on and ask to concentrate on that in the session.

If the therapist starts to concentrate on something that I know like the back of my hand and am having no problems with in my life, then I will ask to talk about something else.

Sometimes, though, going over something I know can be helpful. If it's something that I'm still having a problem with in my life, and the therapist is offering new insight or problem-solving tools, I may realize later that it proved to be helpful, even though I was feeling impatient at the time they were discussing it. (I find this happens more often with group therapy than with individual therapy.)

There is this background presumption, even if very subtle, that ultimately he will know better than I. And if he does not, we will both end up pretending he does.

Can you talk to the therapist about this? The second part, especially, you pretending, seems problematic.

[JaneTennison1]

OP - he may have more knowledge in some areas but you are the expert on you. What's the harm in saying you already know the stuff he's telling you? I see no reason not to be forthright.

[atisketatasket]

No. 1 informed me that she had observed something about me that she regarded as some insight. I bit back the response, "yeah, you know that because I've told you that. TWICE."

I didn't feel demeaned. Irritated, yes. But in response to your question - I don't think you can presume the existence of a very subtle presumption in the other person's mind as well as your own, I don't see why you have to join in any pretense that goes on, and everyone I meet tells me things I already know. Insists on it even.

This new therapist sounds good on screen, maybe you could discuss this?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by Leah123

Therapists have expertise, part of the reason we see them, so I consider that an integral facet of the process. But I am the expert on myself, and my therapist respects that, respects my intuition, my judgement, my decisions, etc.

I agree therapists have theoretical expertise from training, though that is not the same as knowing how to use it clinically, so whether their expertise has any value to the client is not necessarily clear at all. And yea I am the expert on myself, as you say. And my new T acknowledged that. But I can still feel this inexorable drifting of his authority across the line where it begins to intrude on my autonomy. I have felt this with many or most of the other Ts.

Originally Posted by Leah123

If you don't want to see someone who knows more than you about psychology, have you considered a support group or other type of structure, like a class?

It's not the knowing more than I do that is the problem; it's the assumptions that come with it. Have tried some support groups, is a possibly good model.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I have found a problem to be they don't just stick to knowing more about psychology or therapy - but that they think they know more about the client. And they refuse to give the info on therapy itself.

Yep, almost as if this all-knowing is necessary to justify their existence. Or it's just conditioning or habit.

I've asked new T twice to explain the mechanism of therapy and I can't get anything I can hold onto. I think it should be in writing.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I think I should stop participating in hijacking this thread.
OP - feeling demeaned is not good. Have you tried meditation/yoga sorts of things if therapy does not work for you?

I had a daily formal meditation practice a while back, but illness and general emotional/psych distress has made it almost impossible. But I believe it has huge potential for healing.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by Pennster

Budfox, I wonder if you've talked to anyone with a slightly more Buddhist focus? My current therapist is a Buddhist and he is extremely respectful and non-hierarchical. I would be very sensitive to issues of power and hierarchy and all that generally, but he has never made me feel that he has any notions of superiority, and he is very explicit about not having any kind of superior knowledge or understanding of my situation. I find him very helpful, not in any way demeaning. I think some part of this attitude is due to the way Buddhism seems to have influenced the field of psychology in recent years - I have read a few books that seem to share his attitude.

I have in the past. It was actually a major consideration for a while. Thanks for bringing it up, I should keep this in mind more. Although the T with whom I had the destructive experience had some Buddhist orientation, but I think she wasn't very serious about it (Buddhist Lite).

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by Salmon77

My impression is that if the therapist is not doing or saying anything in particular that you can point to as demeaning, then the "demeaned" feeling is not caused by their actions but rather by your attitude towards them.

It's caused by both. Part of it is my wounds and insecurities. Part of it I believe, and this is the point of my post, is built into therapy. That's my experience anyway. Not with all Ts, but most.

With new T, it is non-verbal partly, and subtle.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by BudFox

It's caused by both. Part of it is my wounds and insecurities. Part of it I believe, and this is the point of my post, is built into therapy. That's my experience anyway. Not with all Ts, but most.

With new T, it is non-verbal partly, and subtle.

I had a problem with it too esp with my first longterm female t. I finally got over it with this t. He used to ask me if i knew what any word over three syllables meant. Used to drive me crazy and i found it incredibly insulting. I wasnt there for a freakin vocabulary lesson.

[missbella]

Originally Posted by Salmon77

My impression is that if the therapist is not doing or saying anything in particular that you can point to as demeaning, then the "demeaned" feeling is not caused by their actions but rather by your attitude towards them.

I've seen social hierarchy established in the most subtle ways, a tone of voice, word use, body position, gesture, even how one uses the furniture. I'd feel demeaned, for example, if someone told me that I wasn't perceiving reality correctly, as though he was the one arbiter.

My therapists all behaved as though they had some life knowledge I didn't. Grad school teaches them labels,jargon and procedure. No education confers life knowledge. A couple of therapists I've encountered none-professionally are two of the most posturing, vainglorious human specimens I've had the misfortune of knowing.

[Petra5ed]

Originally Posted by BudFox

Since I had a traumatic therapy rupture 9 months ago, have tried or interviewed 11 new ones in attempt to find some help. Plus consulted on phone with a few more. Saw latest today for second session.

Even though new T is nonjudgmental, considerate, is not aggressive with interpretations or advice, I still feel demeaned. There is this background presumption, even if very subtle, that ultimately he will know better than I. And if he does not, we will both end up pretending he does. Today he told me a number of things I already knew.

With most of the Ts I have seen, I leave feeling slightly used. I think I need to find other ways to heal.

Who can relate?

I haven't read through this whole thread yet, but yes I can definitely relate. My current therapist has done a good job of not letting me feel this way, he actually makes me feel the opposite, i.e. like I ultimately know what's best for me and not him. However, the psychiatrist I saw recently who fired me after telling me the drugs I've been medically prescribed to treat my depression would fry my brain, gave the impression he felt like I was a total scumbag. I have never felt so summed up and judged in literally what was 10 - 15 minutes of conversation. Not only did he know what was best for me, and that how I want to treat my depression is "wrong," he also knew enough about me in no time at all to summarily fire me as a client because "we" wouldn't work out. I'm still pissed about that ****. If you ask me it's the know it alls that have the least clue.