searching for a new T following bad therapy

Quote BudFox: "Yes true that launching directly into a painful area with a new T could be dangerous. But in order to proceed at all, I need to talk about my concerns about therapy and I don't know how I would avoid talking about prior therapy at least some."

Psychodrama, would allow you to re-enact the trauma(s), and maybe give you the relief you need to move on from this, and get you to where you were before therapy, if not farther along. IMO only.

I wonder if you went in with the goal of getting refocused on you (instead of "therapy"). Allowing the hurt and betrayal you endured to come up naturally as you get back to the roots of why you needed help in the first place. Maybe? This whole awful experience with your therapist has so derailed you that I wonder (and realize I could be completely off, so please forgive me for sort of thinking aloud) if going back into therapy with the intent of refocusing on your issues, your original reason for going into therapy, and handling how the trauma of that therapy experience probably reinforced or reinjured (not sure of the right word to use) a part of you.

That was sort of the approach my therapist took with me in dealing with my trauma. Rather than start with the trauma, he started with other things: my beliefs about myself, my current life challenges, etc. We began to discover how the trauma tied into other things about myself by kind of going about it backwards. (Not sure I'm explaining myself well.) In other words, the BIG trauma wasn't the big focus, but we looked at it in small bits as we discovered how it tied into other things. For me, I found it worked better that way because I could see how things tied together in my head and my life and the trauma didn't completely monopolize my thinking and my therapy that way. I kind of learned how to see that there was more to me than that trauma; I had kind of forgotten that about myself.

I saw a new GP last Fall and mentioned it to her. But she didnt seem comfortable with the topic at all, and we had many other things to cover. She suggested seeing a therapist.

I did talk to a body worker whose modality incorporates some level of emotional work, and was a bit helpful. Might see her again.

Not to be a total dweeb here, but do you have a link to what actually happened with your ex-therapist? I want to understand better how you were hurt. Your pain is palpable.

The negative-outcome-is-the-patient's-intrapsychic-problem shtick began with Freud who bent into elaborate contortions including"jealousy of the therapist" to explain why patients failed to improve under his brilliant care. Though psychotherapy moved on from Freud, I see signs in my personal interaction and reading that the blaming the patient lingers in some cases. It certainly did in mine.

I see numerous problems in your (somewhat) exaggerated scenario beyond blame. The therapist is playing the role of the infallible authority, playing omniscient, seizing the narrative and pretending to know--and interpret--a scenario he has never witnessed. My subsequent therapist did something similar after my destructive therapy. "Let's talk about what you did to provoke him."

I was out in the world at a reasonably good job when I went to therapy. I had friends, outside interests and even a sense of adventure. The last thing I needed to return to being a child who needed a parent to supervise, judge, prod me and give me banal life lessons. Therapy actually undermined the sense of competence I sought. It reinforced the demeaning feeling of being inferior in the presence of much wiser, priest-like beings who held mystical secrets I couldn't hope to attain. "Recovering" from the worst of the therapy was the act of pulling back the Wizard of Oz's curtain.

I very much enjoyed body work. I found it calming without the complication of my therapists' neediness.

But the original issues are distant and nebulous and I have no idea how therapy would address them. It hasn't yet in several tries. Whereas the harmful therapy is recent and tangible and agonizing. Like early attachment relationships, this therapy relationship was "paradigmatic". It wasn't just a pointer to other things. It is source material. Recent therapists suggested that the experience was something to look through rather than at. Just made things worse. The other thing is that in order to do therapy, I have to talk about why I do not trust it, do not get it.

I originally went into therapy to get basic support for chronic illness and to try a somatic based trauma therapy. What I got was a twisted form of unrequited love, rejection, more rejection, abandonment, gas lighting, and emotional and psychological torture of a sort. I was too ill to handle any of that, and I am too ill to be running around now trying to navigate this bizarre world of T's and their own fragile selves and their ambiguous and obscure methods and rules. Rather pissed about all this. Ex T left me in a massive hole. Part of me just wants someone from that world to sit quietly while I point out all the hypocrisy and insanity and denials. Maybe a panel consisting of all the T's I have seen, with my main T sitting out front under a bright light. Then I get up and walk out. Just a thought. Sorry, had to vent...

I never even thought of myself has having endured early trauma. Still not sure. No memories of such a thing. Am just assuming certain things based on how I responded to ex T and other things. I sometimes think therapy made me feel sicker about myself than I really am. Not sure anymore. I get where you are coming from, and I know your history is much clearer and more definitive.

Hi, Bud,
Someone mentioned psychodrama might be helpful. It might!

That reminded me that PrevT (the good one) brought out a bataka bat. She sat still in a chair and invited me to hit her- trying to bring up some of my anger. (we were inpatient). This might have worked for me but I couldn't make myself pick one up.

Maybe it could be helpful for you

Bizarre though it is, I think you can get sincere validation and support from a total stranger; isn’t that what we’re all doing on this forum in the first place?

Of course, nobody here is being paid to be nice, and I think your concern there is a natural one. You may never feel that validation and support given in the context of an economic relationship can be real—and that’s a legitimate point of view—but I disagree. The comparison to teaching has been made many times, so I’ll resist the urge to tell you all about how I love my students

Instead I’ll go for an even further-fetched comparison: Customer service (gasp!).

I had this job in a hotel once that paid minimum wage and made me miserable. I cannot possibly convey to you how absolutely horrible it was. I mean, really, really bad.

But sometimes, despite the soul-crushing crushing misery of it, I actually did care about some of the guests. I remember this one old lady was being a total pain in the ***--kept changing rooms, requesting things, nothing was right, completely drove my coworkers up the wall. I finally went to deliver some extra pillows and ended up practically tucking this old woman into bed! Turns out she hadn’t been out of her own home in, like, THIRTY YEARS and was supposed to be flying out to visit her grandson the next morning. Never been on a plane, terrified of being out of her comfort zone, just really, really needing support.

I’m sure this sounds trite, but I loved that lady in that moment. I legitimately cared about her. Yeah, it was my job to be nice, and I would have pretended to be nice no matter what, but I actually meant it that time. She was my guest in my place of business and I treated her like one.

She (tearfully) thanked me and I got a very nice letter from the grandson thanking me for being human.

The point of this long-winded story is that, impossible as it seems, real hospitality and connection can and does exist in the most hostile and unlikely of environments. And that, I think, is an encouraging thought.

Yeah, I feel you for sure. As I said earlier, I really used to resent that type of advice, too (still do, often). Maybe new T will eventually find a way to say those things that doesn’t feel patronizing or throw the relationship into a parent/child, guru/disciple dynamic. Hopefully she’ll respect your wishes and steer clear of it altogether. I maintain, though, that she may help you find some sort of indirect path toward happiness, even if she can’t directly address the wounds left by ex-T.

I really hope it goes well and think it’s pretty brave of you to try again. Good luck!

I find it helpful to understand harmful therapy by setting aside all the theory, all the pathologizing (oh, gee do I have an attachment disorder or abandonment issues, like there's some metric for human normality) and look at the situation in basic human terms.

The folks hung out a shingle promising to help me deal with problems, improve and lessen my burden in life. They lured me into believing that if I listened to them, followed their "program" that I somehow would be transformed into a better woman.

And then (in my case) the folks began to behave presumptuously and rudely. They pretended to know things about me and my life they couldn't possibly know. They behaved like my supervisors, like I was accountable to them, despite my perfectly responsible, productive life. They called me names. They scolded. They tried to manipulate me when I wanted to discontinue their services.

Events were straightforward really. The relationships were plain domineering, rude and power struggles. They turned me into their sycophant in service of pretending to teach me "healthier" relationships. It was a con job, though I think the folks sincerely see themselves as the purest of saviors and healers. I was confused believing I'd embarked on some mystical ritual and that I somehow owed these jokers my allegiance and obedience.

It helps me to brush aside therapy-think to see the situation as it really was. We were all flawed humans. They believed their own publicity and far too much baseless theory. And because of their professional status, I humanly was reeled into the shared delusion. Yeah, whatever my "issues," the events here are two separate working parts.

Thanks for asking. Not sure. I'd have to go back and look at old posts. I wrote up a sort of outline a while back for another T. Kinda captures it:

appearance of trust/safety -> attunement -> T self-disclosures -> emotional seduction -> exposure/vulnerability -> enmeshment -> infatuation/idealization -> rejection -> dependence -> infantilization -> humiliation -> disempowerment -> chaos -> abandonment -> betrayal -> pathologizing -> blaming -> gaslighting -> punishment -> despair, longing, hopelessness

In essence as I mentioned earlier it was a twisted form of unrequited love followed by abandonment with everything exposed and nothing resolved.

I'm curious about the assumption here that the primary issue is actually me and not the therapy experience itself. That strikes me as a very therapist-like notion. And in fact it's default the position some T's took with me. It had no real basis in reality, given that they knew very little of what occurred. It was a self-preservation move and a manifestation of institutionalized denial and bias.

What if the issues a client brings to therapy are actually overshadowed by the particular horrors of bad therapy?

Not what I was getting at at all. I was responding to your statement "I don't know even know that trying to address it is prudent or healthy or realistic." Since you were questioning how to go about this or whether to even go there at all, I was simply offering an idea that might be an alternative approach. I was absolutely not making the assumption that you were to blame for what happened to you; simply offering an idea about maybe how to find some relief in a different way since that seems to be what you are trying to figure out here. It was just a perspective, Budfox; not an assumption of any kind, and I think I stated several times that I was just thinking aloud and not sure I was on target or not. Sure wish you could get past assuming I always have some sinister ulterior motive. I don't. I just wish for you some peace in your situation. Your pain and the long-term effect of what you went through is so palpable. I just wish the best for you.

I was questioning the idea of trying to address root issues in therapy. I guess the suggestion that I need not focus on what happened to me in therapy, and just look at my issues, is waaaay too close to what therapists tried to pull. Namely, suggesting that therapy couldn't possibly have been harmful, must be you dear client.

I don't think you have an ulterior motive. But sometimes your posts do seem to be channeling therapists, with some of the same content and tone, and that can be difficult for me to take. But that is my perception and not objective reality. No offense meant.

In the five years my one-entry blog has been posted, only a hand full of professionals have approached me specifically about the points I raise--the effect that an engineered, role playing, sometimes regressive, sometimes subordinating relationship has on some clients. A few professionals have agreed or described my story as a cautionary tale. But more have approached me antagonistically or condescendingly, like a wounded tyrants demanding submission. It's been interesting to see what my blog triggers in practitioners. Some of them apparently don't want to consider and appear quite angered by the points I raised.

And you know, unfortunately, this an all too frequent occurrence . I'm so sorry it happened to you.

I agree it's possible to get validation from a stranger, but therapy in particular seems a confusing and sketchy way to get it, though not impossible.

As for this forum, yea I see many parallels between a forum like this and therapy. One difference though is that here you get a diversity of perspectives, whereas in therapy you are confined in an isolated relationship with just one person and everything becomes so intensified and bewildering with their strange evasions and sleights of hand.

I would also add that I have transferred to this forum some of the same compulsive and addictive behaviors that manifested in therapy. And it has become unhealthy in similar ways. It perpetuates my preoccupation with therapy and with my problems. There is also the potential for getting ambushed by someone whose defenses or vulnerabilities have been threatened, as happened to me in therapy. But it has also been very helpful at times too.

You seem smart and aware so I'm surprised you don't tell T to skip the advice and coaching stuff. I actually have no plans to see the T I talked to last week. She said so little that was meaningful that I'm not even sure we spoke.

Yes exactly dammit! I had to keep reminding myself of that. In any other context the experience would have been considered a strange sort of emotional and psychological abuse.

Therapy is set up to run everything that happens through the therapy filter, and what comes out the other side is always just fodder for more therapy, and never a reflection of the insanity of the process or the therapist's own neuroses.

Where else in life could you wind up paying someone to reject and abandon you? And then be told that if you would just do more therapy you'd see it was a good experience? Enquiring minds want to know...

This thread came up in my therapy today. I basically accused my t of acting like Bud's t. T said x, and i heard x plus a, where a is my own stuff. He didnt say anything about a AT ALL. But that was totally how i interpreted it. I look at the world thru crap-colored glasses. As if he were the authority, like my parents were. He said it made our relationship feel very tenuous. It was good that we were able to talk about it. I thought it would be difficult, but it really wasnt. Impy, my doll that he holds who uncannily shows my feelings, had her face buried in the crook of his rlbow, like she couldnt stand to watch it happen - she's so good!

Therapists are so arrogant and think they are god to people (in my opinion). I am not at all surprised that most of them cannot admit to the horrible damage the profession can do to people.

Looking at (some) therapy against the yardstick of ordinary human relationships, it can defy common sense. When I raise questions in my blog and in internet discussions, professionals talk in circles or worse, launch ad hominem attacks. I'd think it again --common sense--that the engineered relationship of therapy, as well as the variations of modalities and practitioners, can harm some people.

Only 1 or 2 of the 12 that I consulted with or tried really wanted to go there, and even then in only the most general way.

What most of them did was withhold comment, emanating a sort of oppressive and invalidating silence.

It might help to clarify your expectations . I can relate to what you expressed about the seemingly one sided nature of therapy . I've struggled with this in the relationship with my own therapist . ( I spill my guts /let you into the depths of my soul - but I can't know you - ( whenever I ask a question related to his life or feelings - that question becomes a reflective question back to me ) ex: What did you think about Robin Williams suicide ? " More important I think is what did you think about Robin Williams suicide ? ) Trust is important in this relationship - it's the foundation for the work . I think I've come to feel somewhat exploited by my therapist / or maybe it's just not working anymore .

This is devastatingly succinct.


Well, sure, I seem smart and aware until I back my car into a pole or get into an argument with the self-checkout machine at the grocery store!

But in all seriousness…I wonder what the assumption here is. That smart, aware people don’t need advice and coaching? That giving advice presumes the receiver is not smart or aware? Is this a therapy-specific thing, or more general? There’s something I’m missing here—that I think I’ve always missed in these dialogues—about advice and power in the therapy relationship.

I think you mentioned that life advice possibly makes more sense if the client is relatively young and the T a generation older, and maybe that’s where my blind spot is—that I AM relatively young and my T the next generation up. I’m pretty accustomed to relationships where I am in a position to be instructed by the other person. I'm not inherently threatened by being on the receiving end of a teacher/student, parent/child, advisor/advisee dichotomy.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve certainly received coaching that made me feel admonished and condescended (not so much in therapy, but certainly elsewhere) and I can see that advisor/advisee dynamic being very, very open to abuse, especially in a situation as insular and unsupervised as therapy.

But is life advice in therapy inherently condescending, admonishing, or indicative of an unhealthy power dynamic? Serious question. And I won’t be offended if you think the answer here is “Yes” or “Most of the time,” I’m just curious about the reason.

PS: Sorry about the misunderstanding. I somehow thought you were planning on seeing this T. Glad you're not, if you had a twenty-minute non-conversation. Those are irritating.

I was in very intensive individual therapy, and struggling with past trauma that was being fueled in the present by parents behaving badly. My, then therapist, suggested psychodrama to speed up the process, so as to not have my progress be derailed. It would have taken much longer to work on in individual therapy. She referred me to a group, I did 10 weeks, and it moved me out of the trauma so that I could work with it. When I am able to read your threads I see shades of my past self. They were mostly all charlatans in my book, too.

I know previously you said you would check into it, and I was wondering if you did, and what would or wouldn't have you give it a go. No guarantees it will work, but it might move you out of this quagmire you're in, and get you back to dealing with your original issues, either by continuing psychodrama, individual therapy or both together,...or something totally different.

I'm glad that you get some of your needs met here.