[Invisibl3]

i am not sure why i keep on going back to the same T....when i feel he doesnt want me there.

i feel like he treats me like a 2nd class citizen.

very present in the session...but here and there..he will say something completely invalidating. just one sentence...i will email him for the last min. cancellation...he will reply 2 days later...saying dont worry about it???? huh...it would have made sense if u replied the same day...but 2 days later you acknowledge my email. now he doesnt even bother replying...to non therapy emails...once he told me if u have any questions on what we discussed today...u can email me...i said okay...great..i will !!! i emailed him the same day...and no response. next session he goes i thought it would be better we discuss it in session...(6 days later?) which is fine...but atleast aknowledge my email...its like he treats me like a nobody....he has never discussed email policy etc. as such. i rarely email.

anyway...last session was very off...i let him know ...and he apologized.
i cancelled the later sessions as i was upset that he clearly hates me...why do i keep on going back to him again and again.
i looked for another T..who was very similiar to this one in everything..but his timing doesnt work for me at all.
i feel like going back to him again. i am just not sure...what to do?
i know he will say he wants to work with me..but his action speak otherwise.
apart of me is like no no...have some self respect...get the message in ur head...and move on...besides he hasnt reached out to me either after 2 cancelled appts.
another part is like...i miss him...he is better than nothing...i had a safe place...whatever he says take it with a grain of salt. his hours are convenient..his office is close by...

someone decide for me...i just can not decide for myself....

lets just vote...

You deserve to have a therapist that you feel comfortable with. You're paying them for their service so shop around a bit! I think you will find a good fit with someone else.

[atisketatasket]

I'm not voting on someone else's life decision.

But if you want an opinion, I don't quite see anything in your post that suggests he hates you and doesn't want to work with you. He allows emails, you feel safe, he's very present in session, he apologized when a session went badly. An example of his invalidating comments would make the picture clearer. You two do need to have a talk about email, it sounds like. And why would he reach out to you over canceled appointments - did you give the real reason? Many therapists don't chase down clients who cancel appointments.

[AllHeart]

Has cancelling appointments become a habit for you? Could t not be reaching out to you after cancelling your last 2 appointments because you cancel so often? Have you considered discussing his email policy with him directly? When your t makes the invalidating statement here and there, do you tell him you feel that way?

I think you should communicate with this t to find out what his cancellation email policy is, his regular email policy is, and to see what he says about his sometimes invalidating statements before deciding what to do. It does sound like he has done plenty of good for you. Hope you can talk to t about all of this before just walking out.

I don't really see in what you've written that he dislikes you or doesn't want to work with you. I do understand, however, that it can feel that way when he doesn't respond to emails that he offered. As someone else mentioned, it might be helpful to have a conversation about email "rules". Let him know that you aren't asking him to conduct therapy via email, but when he gets an email from you, please send an email back stating that he got the email and the two of you will talk about the issues in the next session. One of the great things all of us can get out of going to therapy is learning how to state what we NEED to be comfortable in the relationship. Even though I or someone else might understand a person's need to have his/her email acknowledged, your therapist might need that spelled out for him.

If you cancel a session, it isn't something that all professionals will call you about. They simply consider the appointment cancelled and they'll wait until you call to reschedule another one. Most therapists will NOT under any circumstances chase down a client that cancels appointments. The therapist will probably address the issue in session if it becomes a habit, but they're not going to call or email you and ask, "Hey, where are you? Are you coming back?" Why? Because going to therapy has to be YOUR decision. If you call and return then the therapist is banking on you wanting to be there because you made the appointment and came in. Not calling and checking up on you doesn't mean he doesn't like you or doesn't want to work with you. He's actually allowing you the freedom to decide if you like him and want to work with him.

I do understand the pain and worry about whether or not someone wants to talk to you about your emotional pain. We're pretty vulnerable when we go in and talk to a virtual stranger about very personal things. But if you can, give him a call back and schedule another appointment. You mention that you feel safe when you're in his office. That feeling of safeness is a beginning. Good luck with whatever you decide!

[BudFox]

Why is everyone giving the therapist a pass for the obvious blunders that he has committed?

If a therapist is saying invalidating things, waiting days to respond to emails, not replying at all to some emails… these are serious problems. And if he has not made clear his email policy, even though the client is communicating via email, then the therapist might well be a dips**t.

I can see that a therapist would be bothered by late cancellations, but he should be mature and talk about it. Clients should not have to initiate conversations about boundaries and rules. Alll these games and power struggles in therapy, how is this healthy?

Invisibl3: Based on what you wrote, I would drop the guy. But that is the logical answer. If you have formed an attachment then it becomes more difficult, even if you know he is not good for you.

[nottrustin]

I won't vote as this has to be your decision...I will give my opinions though.

First, I think you do need to discuss emails with him. What I have found with my t when it comes to emails and everything else is unless I tell her what my expectations are she will never know. She can't read my mind and know what I think should happen. Also, there quite possibly could be a reason for their response or lack of response that I have not considered and is valid.

Secondly, when it comes to be feeling invalidated it is best to assert yourself and question the response. It can be an issue of difference of opinions or just difference in word usage. Recently, there have been a couple of times that T's response REALLY pissed me off. In the past I would have been angry and moved on without speaking up. However, I have started to question t and given her the opportunity to explain. At my last appointment we had of these issues arise. And so I changed my wording to which she responded by stating she now understood where I was coming from and agreed with what I was saying.

I don't know of any T who will chase down a client that cancelled appointments. I have worked with a few both for myself and my children at one time or another. All of them say up front that they will not chase a client who cancels appointments or stops coming. They may be concerned and all that but they respect the clients decisions on whether to come or not. If I tell t I don't want to come because of being in a bad space she responds with that she understands me not wanting to come and will support it. However, she does encourage me to come....

[QUOTE=BudFox;4896795]Why is everyone giving the therapist a pass for the obvious blunders that he has committed?. . . QUOTE]

Why are you assuming that "everyone" is giving the therapist a pass on anything? You don't like how the therapist acted and you suggested that the OP dump him. That's a choice. Others thought that the OP was expressing confusion about the reasons the therapist was treating her in a particular manner and people suggested she might want to go back and check things out before dumping him or not. . . Her choice. No one is telling or dictating what the OP should or should not do. More like people are encouraging her to make her own informed decision on the course of her treatment choices.

[stopdog]

I have never found talking to a therapist about their flaws or failings to be a useful endeavor - it just gives them a chance to further treat the client badly. The therapist has not been enlightening about their bad behavior. IF the therapist has some use, I would reduce my encounters with them to emphasize that use. If the therapist has no other use, I would find a new one. I voted to leave.

[pbutton]

I have found that talking to my therapist about the way I perceive his behavior has made positive changes in my therapy, as well as helping me develop a skill that I use in outside relationships as well. I have been able to learn polite ways of becoming more direct.

My T is open to feedback, and typically thanks me for helping him better understand where I am coming from. He says it gives him the opportunity to better explain and expand upon whatever is bothering me. It's actually realllllly neat to have someone respond without getting defensive or attempting to retaliate. I highly recommend it, even if only for the novelty of the experience.

Examples from my own therapy:
-He had no idea that not receiving an email response was driving me bananas. I asked few questions & he took that to mean that I was dropping off information for my next session. We worked out that I would tell him in the email when I felt very anxious and in need of a response.

-We established that when I email him about my anxiety or other feelings, I do not need to be provided with a rational approach to the situation. I already KNOW how to see the reality int he situation; my goal is working on acknowledging my feelings.

-He no longer tells me "it will be ok", because I already know that too. Well... for this one, he tries, but he's admitted that it is a standard comfort response for him. So he has said it a few times and caught and corrected himself... which is somehow even more reassuring than if he hadn't said it at all. He pays attention and he tries, even if he can't continuously remember all 4,562 of the benign things that drive me nuts.

[stopdog]

After five years, the woman still forgets and comes at me as I leave -she did it this past week.She has mocked me and blamed me for it, she says she will,do things then never does them, she does not apologize when she obviously screws up nor does she willingly admit or even acknowledge she has screwed up until confronted with evidence of it, and so forth. I have told the woman to no avail. She responds defensively. They are assuredly not all open to feedback. Giving it a go if one feels lucky is one way to go, but it is not guaranteed to work out well just because the person is a therapist.

[Invisibl3]

Thats my fear...if i openly discuss his shortcomings and how it has effected me...he will not like me anymore...consider me too sensitive..or asking too much of him...or even ask...after all this has happened why have you decided to come back to me again and again? i go back...willingly...letting him treat me the way he does. pushing anything negative under the rug...

example: it was the 2nd time T came to get me 10 min.s late, he was with another client...he apologized and i was still upset and reserved . T asks me what would u like to discuss today. ( i was totally caught off guard, as he has NEVER asked me this..we start very naturally with how the week went. i felt pressured) so i told him i want to discuss XYZ ! we discuss it whole session...no problem.

next session: he starts by saying he feels last session was not a good use of our time and he hopes current session is spent on something that is useful and important to me ???????? then he asks what would you like to talk about today?

ahhh..wow...i found last session quiet useful. u let me choose what i wanna talk about then u turn around and say it was a wrong choice? when i am not even complaining?

I felt punished for letting him know that his lateness was NOT okay with me. but it doesnt end there.
(i worked it out by myself why i got so triggered by his lateness, he never bothered asking me)
next session..he again comes 10 mins. late with a prev. client...this time NO apology.
i did not make a big deal out of it at all. It is what it is. and i accepted.

From them on. he has not been late.

ex. 2. i told him i downsized ...and threw out a lot of things from clothes, shoes, toys etc. his response only if we knew how some people dont have these things and we should be greatful etc. i was like huh?????? (he said it intentionally, he is not a stupid T to say such a thing)

Emails: its just common courtesy. when i email my kids school that they will be late or not come at all...by the end of the day i get an email back ...thanks for informing us. its just professional. like any other business...if u get in touch with them...they will reply back...just one sentence. At times, he has said...i read you email, but did not get a chance to reply...because it moved way down in the inbox...and he forgot about it? well ..how do u remember it now IN SESSION about my email?

it just feels like a mind/control game.
or somehow i am his client but not really.
i am easily forgotten to be informed of some changes.

In session, as i said he is present, i have learnt better communication skills from him.
but he gets defensive. i sense his ego in the room.

If i take a big leap of faith...and just tell him everything...upfront and directly...every little thing that bothered me...he may get defensive...and say these are all MY problems...or we have a big rupture...then how do i go back to him after that...?

i feel like a child...who is not wanted..but keeps on going back to its parents...stroking their ego...that they are doing a great job...accept me/notice me already !!!!
except i am NOT a child...i know better...but his rejection will hurt me...and i want to avoid it.

Well heck, SD. Nothing is guaranteed. But many of us have had good and effective experience is communicating what we need with our therapists, having them be receptive, and working together to find a place that worked well for us in our therapy. It doesn't sound, from what the OP said, that there is anything hugely irreparable going on, so a bit of communication about those concerns might be all it takes and could make the OP's therapy much more effective. If not, the OP will know and then have the option to move on. Yes, the OP can dump the therapist now if that's what is wanted, but I seems this is more about needs and boundaries not being clarified earlier, and perhaps a discussion is all that is needed.

[pbutton]

I think a big part of my healing process has been the chance to talk about ways in which I perceive the actions of others, and the effect that it has on me. There is a lot of opportunity for growth in evaluating the ways in which I assign meaning to the behaviors of other people.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by Jaybird57

Why are you assuming that "everyone" is giving the therapist a pass on anything? You don't like how the therapist acted and you suggested that the OP dump him. That's a choice. Others thought that the OP was expressing confusion about the reasons the therapist was treating her in a particular manner and people suggested she might want to go back and check things out before dumping him or not. . . Her choice. No one is telling or dictating what the OP should or should not do. More like people are encouraging her to make her own informed decision on the course of her treatment choices.

I said if it were me I would drop the guy but qualified that because I know it is often not so simple.

Anyway that was not my point. I don't like giving advice and should have left that part out entirely. My point was that I saw multiple responses that gave the T the benefit of the doubt, but did not extend the same to the OP.

The T does not respond to emails, or responds after days. That is just plain stupid. And to not make clear in the first place what policy is, that is lazy and unprofessional. Anyone who knows anything about therapy knows consistency and predictability are paramount, especially for vulnerable clients. Why does the client have to instruct the T on such a basic thing?

So the best way I can support the OP is to zero in on this apparently stupid behavior from the T, and to defend the OP from what I see as reflexive client blaming in the case of problems, which seems to be a core tenet of therapy. And I see it manifesting in this thread, if subtly. I prefer to give benefit of doubt to the paying client, the one in the vulnerable position.

IF a T treats you like a 2nd class citizen, ignores your emails, does not explain him/herself, I don't see going back for more of the same treatment. If they were upfront with you and explained policies or any other questions you had my response might be different. Of course they are willing to take you back but is he/she willing to change? You could talk to a stranger on the street for free who would treat you with more respect than the therapist you were paying for. Weigh your decision carefully.

[ListenMoreTalkLess]

Originally Posted by Invisibl3

i feel like he treats me like a 2nd class citizen.

very present in the session..

It seems to me like there are some contradictory statements by you about your therapist, and/or some behaviors that you are engaging in that may be contributing to a dynamic, or some unreasonable expectations that you have.

In reverse in your post:

1. Therapists don't typically reach out to clients, even when they cancel appointments. The idea behind therapy is that people are allowed to just cancel or disappear without explanation. The other idea is that if you want to speak to him, you have to initiate the contact if it is out of session.

2. A client who routinely or often cancels appointments may create the impression in the therapist that they do not want to go or be in therapy. That may cause the therapist to back off, because he does not want to be coercive or controlling the client into T. Therapists aren't supposed to solicit business or force people into sessions they don't want. The control is supposed to be in the client's hands. Not contacting you is what he should be doing, and the fact that you think he *should* or you are canceling appointments to "test" him is where the problem lies.

3. He apologized for an "off" session but you conclude that he hates you? In my experience, a therapist who apologizes communicates that he wants to work with you, wants to make it better for you. I don't see how it's logical to conclude he hates you.

4. If you want a response to your email, it is up to you to ask. Again with the unsolicited contact, a T would not know that a client WANTS a response. Some clients just want to send it out, others want a response. If you asked him to respond and he replied "I hate you and I refuse to respond," well then I understand why you would conclude what you do. Expecting someone to behave in a certain way, therapist or not, is usually a pathway to be disappointed.

5. The last thing I left in quotes, this seems contradictory to me. How can a therapist be very present in session and yet treat you like a second class citizen? This seems like a reaction that is generated from you internally, not from what he is doing.

You can leave this therapist and hope it works out better with another. It might be that it does. But how you feel is an opportunity to understand your reactions to other people better, not just your therapist. Are there other people in your life who you think treat you this way sometimes, or do you have long term, healthy, satisfying relationships with others?

If you are able to work out these issues-- whether you stay with this therapist or not-- you may be on the road towards something better in your life. But just pointing your finger at your therapist and saying he makes you feel bad, I'm not sure that leads anywhere that productive. In my experience, anyway.

[atisketatasket]

My opinion was based on the fact that in the OP there are just no examples of second-class citizen treatment. The only stated problems are that the therapist doesn't follow up on cancellations, which appears to be standard practice, and the rules about email are hazy, which should not be but judging from posts on PC is quite common - hence the repeated suggestion by posters to discuss it with the therapist. Since the therapist responded well to a complaint about a bad session, there is no reason to assume he would respond badly to a conversation about email.

Mention is made of invalidating comments but no examples are given. Which would be helpful.

And on the other hand, this therapist is very present in session and apologizes when they screw up. There are people on PC who would dearly love for their therapist to do those things.

Now, maybe the OP should leave. I cannot say based on the information given. In my opinion it seems worth a conversation with the therapist, as he has been open to criticism before and the OP clearly values him. There is nothing unsupportive in saying this.

[ListenMoreTalkLess]

Originally Posted by Invisibl3

Emails: its just common courtesy. when i email my kids school that they will be late or not come at all...by the end of the day i get an email back ...thanks for informing us. its just professional. like any other business...if u get in touch with them...they will reply back...just one sentence. At times, he has said...i read you email, but did not get a chance to reply...because it moved way down in the inbox...and he forgot about it? well ..how do u remember it now IN SESSION about my email?

"Common courtesy" means different things to different people. I think common courtesy is not cutting me off in traffic yet it happens on a regular basis.

Has no one in your life ever said that they didn't have time to reply to your email? This isn't really something to get worked up over.

This feels to me like you are really picking at him, and making big pronouncements about how you feel and the related behavior is really quite small, and you fail to think or imagine any responsibility you might have for both how you feel and how you may have created whatever might have happened in session. And rather than trying to address it with him it has festered, molehill to mountain, until it feels so big you're afraid to raise it as an issue at all.

I suggested this in another thread, and it's really quite easy to talk to your therapist in a way that is likely to make someone less defensive, and that's to own your reaction, i.e. "feeling like a child" and asking for help with making sense of it. You can start with one issue and then branch out from there if it seems like it goes well. As in:

"T, I noticed that I had a negative reaction when you said last session that you wanted to focus on something important, yet I felt that we had been focusing on something important to me. I was [confused, distressed, whatever] and I would like some help from you exploring how to make sense of what you mean."

In particular, I've found my T is not very defensive when I say that I was confused by something she said, or that something didn't make sense to me. It seems to go better than when I say "you said X. That sucked." Usually what I thought she said didn't really hit the mark and my interpretations got it distorted. It has really been so useful to me to learn and understand how I can get it wrong-- what people say, what they mean, how they feel. I have found that often times I have it completely backwards-- and other people are really the experts on what they say and how they feel. I'm my own expert, and in my own relationships now I do not tolerate other people telling me what I meant or what I feel. I'm like, I'm the one who knows what I meant and I'm the one who knows what I feel. If you believe otherwise, that's your issue.

My advice is to stick with trying to understand yourself and your reactions and how other people impact that, rather than trying to interpret what they mean. And be straight with other people, and T is a great place to start with that. You can't fail to communicate what's going on with you and then blame them for not meeting your needs.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by ListenMoreTalkLess

It seems to me like there are some contradictory statements by you about your therapist, and/or some behaviors that you are engaging in that may be contributing to a dynamic, or some unreasonable expectations that you have.

In reverse in your post:

1. Therapists don't typically reach out to clients, even when they cancel appointments. The idea behind therapy is that people are allowed to just cancel or disappear without explanation. The other idea is that if you want to speak to him, you have to initiate the contact if it is out of session.

2. A client who routinely or often cancels appointments may create the impression in the therapist that they do not want to go or be in therapy. That may cause the therapist to back off, because he does not want to be coercive or controlling the client into T. Therapists aren't supposed to solicit business or force people into sessions they don't want. The control is supposed to be in the client's hands. Not contacting you is what he should be doing, and the fact that you think he *should* or you are canceling appointments to "test" him is where the problem lies.

3. He apologized for an "off" session but you conclude that he hates you? In my experience, a therapist who apologizes communicates that he wants to work with you, wants to make it better for you. I don't see how it's logical to conclude he hates you.

4. If you want a response to your email, it is up to you to ask. Again with the unsolicited contact, a T would not know that a client WANTS a response. Some clients just want to send it out, others want a response. If you asked him to respond and he replied "I hate you and I refuse to respond," well then I understand why you would conclude what you do. Expecting someone to behave in a certain way, therapist or not, is usually a pathway to be disappointed.

5. The last thing I left in quotes, this seems contradictory to me. How can a therapist be very present in session and yet treat you like a second class citizen? This seems like a reaction that is generated from you internally, not from what he is doing.

You can leave this therapist and hope it works out better with another. It might be that it does. But how you feel is an opportunity to understand your reactions to other people better, not just your therapist. Are there other people in your life who you think treat you this way sometimes, or do you have long term, healthy, satisfying relationships with others?

If you are able to work out these issues-- whether you stay with this therapist or not-- you may be on the road towards something better in your life. But just pointing your finger at your therapist and saying he makes you feel bad, I'm not sure that leads anywhere that productive. In my experience, anyway.

Wow I feel sorry for the OP. Feeling invalidated in therapy and then coming here for support and getting another big dose of it. I find the above lecture rather patronizing and shaming.

No matter what T does it's ok and can be explained away by some therapy concept. The T is infallible, and the client is child-like and confused.

Reminds me of Orwell's concept of doublethink. If the T does something it is because he cares and wants to help you. If he does the exact opposite it is also because he cares and wants to help you.

Just my view...

[ruh roh]

Originally Posted by Invisibl3

someone decide for me...i just can not decide for myself....

lets just vote...

Is he helping you with the reason you're in therapy? Are you worse than when you started?