[Chimney]

My confusing heading confuses even me. Please help me either understand the logic or sense where I cannot see it, or suggest alternatives. I'm very grateful for any wisdom or experience you can share.

I've got the most awful concrete block feeling in my stomach as I try to understand what several professionals have advised for a very close friend's 13yr old daughter.

I regularly look after this 13yr each school holidays and I always try my utmost to keep to her mother's rules and preferences. The last couple of years have been very rough on this young girl and all of us who care for her. There has been self harming for over a year and then just 2 months ago an apparent overdose while at school (I don't know with what) which led to her being taken into our youth mental health services here. She had twice been to them before this at the request of her mum who was concerned and frustrated with behaviour that seemed excessive compared to other children. Our 13yr old has since been prescribed 25mg quitiapine to help her sleep.

My confusion and feeling of going completely against the grain is this. ..... Apparently both the psych team and school counselor have said that "to keep her safe we should not withhold her electronic devices" !!!!!!???????

My brain, heart, morals, basically the grown up in me (I'm 42) is fighting this.....hard. I'm losing sleep about this. I truly do have a deep understanding for mental health. Myself, my sister, mum, cousins, grandmother, and friends. ...we all have our battles and I have learnt many tools from a couple of excellent therapists, and I believe that medication plays its parts when we find the right one or ones. ......But as well as therapy and drugs and self awareness there is what we learn from others. ....... especially when we're still growing and developing emotionally and mentally. That includes how we raise our kids and how we impact on the young lives of those we care for.

I understand that a cellphone feels like a limb to our younger generation. I feel much the same way, which is why I know it's healthy to learn to have time away from said cellphone. If her mum and I (she feels equally bothered by this new suggestion), if we to not confiscate a phone as a consequence of unacceptable behaviour, if we were not to limit internet access, or grant more as a reward for good behaviour, if we didn't have rules about where phones are overnight and when they can be used. .....I mean if we didn't have these rules in place then what are we teaching? That a 13yr girl can be trusted to self monitor how she uses her phone, and who she's talking to, when and for how long? This just does not sit right at all with me, and her mum is feeling the same way. If her mum was adament that she feels OK about it then I would (with teeth clenched) go along with her wishes and her rules. But neither of feel OK about this.

I can think of variations. Phone allowed in room at night but household Internet turned off. All Internet use in family room only. But It not being "safe" to take her phone away from her?

I would never wish any more harm to come to this beautiful girl, especially not by her own hand, but this seems so wrong to me.

Please help me get my head around this situation. Many thanks.

I would tell the staff what to do with their suggestion. A compromise would be a cell phone with limited minutes and no internet access if the cell phone is too much of a distraction/escape/source of drama for her. She would still be able to contact people but in a much more limited way. Sounds like the staff is giving this teenager far too much power over the rules, particularly in regards to technology that can come fraught with truly significant problems of social media, bullying, arguments, general teenage drama. Sometimes counselors/therapists of teenagers are the worst culprits of enabling behaviors. We ran into this problem with our own son's treatment team when he was in the hospital. We were glad to get him home and into therapy with a therapist who was on the same page as we were.

[BlessedRhiannon]

Just about the only reason I can think of for not denying electronics would be to ensure that someone has a way to reach out if they need help. I know that for me, there are times when the only way I'm able to ask for help is to text my friends or therapist. Granted, I'm an adult and don't need my electronic device usage monitored.

Perhaps this is a question that needs to be asked of the treatment team...why are they advocating this approach. It's possible that something was lost in the message. If it's because the teen needs to be able to reach out and ask for help, then perhaps something can be worked out to allow text or phone calls but not internet.

[Merecat]

She may be using the phone to access online or helpline support. I worked for a 24 hour support service and a lot of young people used the forums for immediate support (much like this place) or for playing mindless games that help keep them grounded. She could be using an online blog to cope with her feelings or online art apps to help express how she's doing. There's a lot of good stuff out there for young people who struggle, as well as lots of risks or dangers.

Could you talk to her about what she uses and how, maybe agree that she keeps her electronics but that you have access to her browser history?

[glitches]

Why are we with holding the electronics? I am missing something...

[Argonautomobile]

I'm a little confused about what the case is for withholding electronics? Is she being cyber-bullied? Talking to creeps? Needing it withheld as punishment? I can think of appropriate reasons, I'm just not entirely sure what they are in this case.

I wouldn't personally want a 13yr old in my life to be without a cellphone when out of the house. I'm twenty-six and I barely have any idea what to do if there's an emergency and I don't have my cell...find a payphone? Borrow someone else's? I'm not saying it's not doable or anything, I just think it's good to be able to reach someone I care about and vice versa.

I did all sorts of questionable **** with electronics as a pre-teen and teen. Porn, talking to creeps, getting cyber-bullied, you name it. I'm fairly certain my mom was aware of at least some of this, and she'd start hypothetical conversations about how to deal with various complications inherent in our plugged-in age. This was helpful. I'm not sure that denying me access to said electronics would have been. This was a reality I was going to have to negotiate for the rest of my life. I don't think I would have learned how to deal with sticky situations if I hadn't been given the opportunity to encounter them in the first place. I may have been so pissed off with my mom for the denial that I wouldn't have come to her for help when something in my life went wrong.

Just my two cents. Your friend is the parent; it's ultimately up to her how she wants to go about it.

I don't necessarily agree with denying them, but I do believe in controlling them. It takes a heck of a lot of time filled with anger and exasperation on the parent to stay ahead of the game. Your house, most likely you bought it, and families are not a democracy. Kids are not an adult's equal.

[Chimney]

Thank you for your thoughts. Some really valid points. I forget who said it but about learning to deal with the complications of our plugged in world instead of having the opportunity to deal with it. .... That one got through. You had a clever mum. I do definitely realize that the mum and not me needs to make the ultimate decision. She works full time and also has a 3 year old. She had to sleep. I was able to stay up worrying for her as well. She was really rattled by the psych team suggestion. This forum and your replies will be read out to her on the phone when she finishes work and the kids are in bed.

The reason her mum (and me when staying with me for holidays) would take away privileges re phone and internet use was because it was the one thing madam 13 seemed to want desperately therefore worked as the best leverage for behaviour and language tweaking. I take on board about being safe and able to contact help lines, therapists etc.

From what we understand the overdose at school took place the day after a run of having her phone taken off her at 8pm each night as sleep was getting less and less and the thought was that the light and stimulation from the phone was not helping this (although I am myself shocking for playing those mindless games with no time limit or pressure to put me out when I can't sleep - I use night filters as much as possible and am desperately trying to wean myself off night phone use - and when young 13yr old is hear I go cold turkey to role model good habits).

So I'm guessing the psych team are not wanting a repeat apparent suicide attempt as a result of restrictions being put in place. I get that but it seems too open ended. I have encouraged my friend to contact both the psych team and the school counselor to clarify what they mean. She's been having to take so much time off work already she's worrying for her job too. Plus it's an open office so difficult to make private phone calls about personal family matters.

What variations on incentives/punishment/education/good habit building around phone and internet access can you suggest?

I too agree about access to a simple phone always with limited calls but lots of texts, a few games and some music. That way she can always ring someone or text someone, and has some distraction through the night if the quitiapine hasn't done it's job (early days so may need something different). It's the social media part that is all consuming for her. There has been so many episodes of deceit when it comes to her use of social media that there is a huge trust issue at stake here. Another issue altogether but deeply intertwined in all this.

Sadly money is an issue. The current psych team is state funded. A new psychologist of her mum's choosing is simply not an option. Sadly.

Please keep on replying with your thoughts and experiences. Sincerely thank you.

[Favorite Jeans]

What bugs me is the idea of how do we threaten/punish/bribe/reward her if we can't take away her phone? Maybe I'll be singing a different tune when I've been humbled by my own children's adolescence but it really upsets me to think that your major concern in all this is "how are we going to find a meaningful punishment?"

I agree with Lola though that you don't have to obey her treatment team. Your values, observations and ideas are important.

[Nammu]

I agree with limited phones, phones that can only be used as phone without access to the Internet. Internet can be accessed on a computer in a main room. Allowing a self destructive 13 yr old free access to the Internet sounds dangerous.

Frankly I'd ask the treatment team to clarify and give alternative discipline examples.

[PinkFlamingo99]

I'd be a little worried about the idea of punishment for SH as "unacceptable behaviour." An overdose is a serious psychiatric issue and maybe more energy should be put into trying to raise her self-esteem and discover the cause rather than punish her.

Even as an adult, being referred to higher level psych services and such sometimes feels like a punishment to me and makes me want to hurt myself more.

I think for a teenager with low self-esteem, the idea of using any form of punishment as a way of deterring self-harm is confusing and could actually make the problem worse. I don't see anything wrong with limiting internet use as a constant rule, but the idea of witholding it as punishment for a psych issue or response to self-punishing behaviour seems kind of problematic since the idea of being "bad" or "shameful" seems to fuel so much SH.

[Chimney]

Oh gosh no. No one is punishing her for self harming. I mentioned that to give an idea of what has been going on prior to her apparent overdose.

The kind of unacceptable behaviour is the raging at her mother, petty stealing but still stealing, mouthing off and back chatting, getting too pysically violent with her mother, lying, persistently getting her boobs out on display (yup we're getting to that stage ...sigh). Mostly very common behaviour from many teenagers. The self harm was not in any way punished. .....nor was it encouraged either. That was the second time her mother approached our mental health service for help.

[Chimney]

That said I really appreciate that mention of being seen by psych services as seeming to be a punishment. That's definitely something to bring up in conversation. Thank you.

Every single parenting course, whether I payed for it or it was free, basically state "the discipline needs to fit the crime." What does taking a phone away have to do with you tell him/her to stack the dishwasher. You are to let the dishes stay dirty, and eventually they will all be dirty(a natural consequence), and then the little bugger will fill the dishwasher. The kid eats cereal, and doesnt put the milk back in the fridge; dont you the parent remind them, nag them or do it yourself. Leave it, let it spoil, and they have no milk for the next day. Next time there is milk in the house, the bugger will happily put the milk away.

Skip the parenting classes. I'm with Lolagrace, find a professional who is on the same page with you.

[Chimney]

To favorite jeans, I respect what you're saying. The main reason for ME, and her mum has experienced the same often, for me I use the phone and internet as the pivot point (can't think how to refer to it) because it is very often the source of young 13yr old's distraction and focus that when someone (namely us adults) interrupts or insists that the reply she is waiting for from xyz can wait until after dinner or homework etc. ...she will sometimes take it calmly with minimal fuss and sometimes make a song and dance about it. The warnings are given. If the drama continues a few times then the phone access is limited but not removed. More serious is when outright lies and deceit occur around the use of the internet, social media mostly. For example at my house 2 years ago she lost all use for a week. We had discussed her mother disapproving of fb. Twice I gave her the oppotunity to tell the truth and twice she lied to me outright saying her mum said she WAS now allowed on fb. I had confirmed with her mother just an hour earlier. Because she had lied about what she was allowed to access on the Internet, I took away the Internet privilege. Because I did not trust her not to sneakily use fb on her phone in her bedroom, she was only allowed to use her phone in the lounge where I could see her. Over the course of that week I asked young madam IF she got to choose a single app what would it be and she chose instagram. I said I would speak with her mother but IF she agreed there would need to be rules and her mother would likely want to be able to check every now and then to make sure privacy was tight. We then went through her instagram account and deleted all those who she didn't actually KNOW IN PERSON, and I showed her how easy it was to look into someone else's business if they privacy settings were too lax. On her last day we closed her fb page, changed her password so I could delete the friends lists, and then gave her half an hour before the bus to get I touch with friends to arrange the next week of the holidays with them. I found out just 2 hours later. .. TWO. ....that in that half hour period she had opened a new fb account and started recruiting friends again. Dishonest. Deceitful. Not acceptable. The punishment for this behaviour, or deterrent for repeat further behaviour, was that when she returned to me in the following school holidays she had phone taken off her completely, and given access to the Internet on our laptop only, in the lounge only, for a maximum of 2 hours for the entire day. She hated it but saw that she had really overstepped my trust in her regarding the INTERNET. On the next 3 school holidays she very slowly crawled back her privileges and ended up with unlimited use of the Internet when in the lounge (but phone to be put down if someone is talking to her, meal times, and when watching a film with others or playing scrabble etc). She was allowed her phone in her bedroom for an hour before dinner so she could have a bit of privacy on facetime or the like. She would automatically leave her phone on the kitchen shelf when she went back to bed to sleep. None of this seemed to push her over the edge in any way. She would arrive at mine and simply ask what my rules were this time about use of phone.

It's all very different for me. I'm not the mum who gets her all the time. She keeps some degree of manners (most of the time) around me and my husband. Her single working mum of a 13yr old and a 3yr old son does not get that courtesy. She should, but that's not how it goes. Her mother has had numerous, countless similar episodes with her daughter, but the result is raging, hitting, "running away" for a few worrying hours, damaging furniture. The mum is up against the same "social media/inappropriate websites etc" but it comes down to the BEHAVIOUR that is the flow on affect when she is told "no" and "now".

There is a lot of healing that needs to go on between this mum and daughter. It got to the stage where they spent a school term apart. This is when the overdose took place. They are starting again fresh this coming school term. .....hence the "suggestion" about not taking away the electronic devices.

Does that make sense? But truly I do respect what you're saying, and the GOOD behaviour, even when done grudgingly, is rewarded.

Hope that helps make sense. If some of you don't think it makes sense please tell me. I'm here to get some ideas and experience.

[Chimney]

Walkedthatroad..... awesome awesome ideas.

[RedSun]

I've come out of exile to respond to this cos there are big alarm bells!
Apologies if I've missed something, or made assumptions because your post does not give the whole picture....
But, same as Pink and Jeans, I'm unsure what the unacceptable behaviour is here. Certainly, self harm, overdose, sleep issues and behavioural problems are a cry for help, not something to be punished in any way. From what you've said, this child is suffering, really suffering. Enough to consider taking her own life. And, if I worked with adolescents with mental health difficulties/experience of abuse (oh, hang on, I do!) I would not for one moment advocate removing a source of access to a helpful community and support network.

I'm, again, making the assumption that the issue is not with anything online, - cyber bullying, grooming etc, and that the disturbance is not linked to social media with friends. If it is, of course it makes sense to monitor her media use, not deny it, but show her safe ways to use it and check she is not engaging with dangerous sites and people. If this is not the issue, then it lies elsewhere, and she possibly needs all the support from peers outside the home that she can get.

[RedSun]

Chimney, all your responses hadn't loaded for some reason, when I replied.
It's great that the SH wasn't punished, that's important.
Getting her boobs out all the time is not necessarily normal teenage behaviour, I'd be very concerned for this girl.

[kecanoe]

One thing that worked for us with our troubled adopted/foster children was to assign chores for misbehavior. Then said chore had to be completed before "fun" could begin. That way the child had some control over how long the punishment lasted, how long they were required to stay home and off the phone.

[Chimney]

Red sun, thank you for that. Yes she definitely is a troubled girl and I worry lots, and give as much support to her concerned mum who just doesn't know how best to move forward. Reading all these posts will help. There have been some really helpful and sensible suggestions. I wanted to say thank you caring so much that you came out of exile for this. Thank you. Xx

KeCanoe, I like that idea. Using the internet as the "fun" incentive instead of the punishment. Although what walkedthatroad said about "discipline suiting the crime". That really hit home. Lots of food for thought.

I'm really glad I found this forum. I'll definitely stick around. I suspect now that is why my replies didn't show for a while. ...so the moderators could check them first. Awful timing but understandable.

[PinkFlamingo99]

Has anyone looked into the root of all this?

[Nammu]

Originally Posted by Chimney

To favorite jeans, I respect what you're saying. The main reason for ME, and her mum has experienced the same often, for me I use the phone and internet as the pivot point (can't think how to refer to it) because it is very often the source of young 13yr old's distraction and focus that when someone (namely us adults) interrupts or insists that the reply she is waiting for from xyz can wait until after dinner or homework etc. ...she will sometimes take it calmly with minimal fuss and sometimes make a song and dance about it. The warnings are given. If the drama continues a few times then the phone access is limited but not removed. More serious is when outright lies and deceit occur around the use of the internet, social media mostly. For example at my house 2 years ago she lost all use for a week. We had discussed her mother disapproving of fb. Twice I gave her the oppotunity to tell the truth and twice she lied to me outright saying her mum said she WAS now allowed on fb. I had confirmed with her mother just an hour earlier. Because she had lied about what she was allowed to access on the Internet, I took away the Internet privilege. Because I did not trust her not to sneakily use fb on her phone in her bedroom, she was only allowed to use her phone in the lounge where I could see her. Over the course of that week I asked young madam IF she got to choose a single app what would it be and she chose instagram. I said I would speak with her mother but IF she agreed there would need to be rules and her mother would likely want to be able to check every now and then to make sure privacy was tight. We then went through her instagram account and deleted all those who she didn't actually KNOW IN PERSON, and I showed her how easy it was to look into someone else's business if they privacy settings were too lax. On her last day we closed her fb page, changed her password so I could delete the friends lists, and then gave her half an hour before the bus to get I touch with friends to arrange the next week of the holidays with them. I found out just 2 hours later. .. TWO. ....that in that half hour period she had opened a new fb account and started recruiting friends again. Dishonest. Deceitful. Not acceptable. The punishment for this behaviour, or deterrent for repeat further behaviour, was that when she returned to me in the following school holidays she had phone taken off her completely, and given access to the Internet on our laptop only, in the lounge only, for a maximum of 2 hours for the entire day. She hated it but saw that she had really overstepped my trust in her regarding the INTERNET. On the next 3 school holidays she very slowly crawled back her privileges and ended up with unlimited use of the Internet when in the lounge (but phone to be put down if someone is talking to her, meal times, and when watching a film with others or playing scrabble etc). She was allowed her phone in her bedroom for an hour before dinner so she could have a bit of privacy on facetime or the like. She would automatically leave her phone on the kitchen shelf when she went back to bed to sleep. None of this seemed to push her over the edge in any way. She would arrive at mine and simply ask what my rules were this time about use of phone.

It's all very different for me. I'm not the mum who gets her all the time. She keeps some degree of manners (most of the time) around me and my husband. Her single working mum of a 13yr old and a 3yr old son does not get that courtesy. She should, but that's not how it goes. Her mother has had numerous, countless similar episodes with her daughter, but the result is raging, hitting, "running away" for a few worrying hours, damaging furniture. The mum is up against the same "social media/inappropriate websites etc" but it comes down to the BEHAVIOUR that is the flow on affect when she is told "no" and "now".

There is a lot of healing that needs to go on between this mum and daughter. It got to the stage where they spent a school term apart. This is when the overdose took place. They are starting again fresh this coming school term. .....hence the "suggestion" about not taking away the electronic devices.

Does that make sense? But truly I do respect what you're saying, and the GOOD behaviour, even when done grudgingly, is rewarded.

Hope that helps make sense. If some of you don't think it makes sense please tell me. I'm here to get some ideas and experience.

Sounds to me like you are doing all the right things and quite appropriately too. For the mental health team to suggest not taking the electronic access away when she is misusing it is rediculous. Sounds more like they want to be her friend than help establish healthy bounties for her.

[Chimney]

PinkFlamingo, this is why her mum kept asking for help. .....to find out exactly that but after a few counseling sessions they'd be flicked out of the system and back in their own again. Now that things have escalated to an apparent overdose I truly hope the youth mental health services who stopped helping them before don't do the same thing this time. As my friend says "it's all very well having an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, but there needs to be one at the top of the cliff too". All the feedback we're getting is that this 13yr old girl "wants a loving mother". She is loved. I guess it is difficult to see that from a 13yr old's perspective when the two of them keep clashing over so much. When she stays with me I'm lucky as have a husband who backs me up and reinforces what I say, but also who is able to lighten the mood if he sees his wife getting to the "needing breathing room" stage. I'm certainly no way near perfect and have to work daily at controlling and releasing my emotions appropriately. The mum doesn't have that luxury. She works full time. I don't. She has 3yr son and all that that entails. I don't. I don't know how she keeps her head above water sometimes. She can't be "good cop" at the same time as "bad cop", and although she would praise and reward the good behaviour with her daughter, all that seems to be remembered is the "unfairness" and "arguments" . How does a mum get around that to ensure her daughter knows she is loved? I'd personally spend a set time every day in the evening with just her. .......but how does that happen if your 3yr old is testing your patience and not going to sleep?

[unaluna]

It kinda sounds to me like the mom has reasons / excuses for not having time for her daughter, but the mom feels guilty about it, and doesnt really want to see her daughter become independent. The phone is a symbol of that independence, so the mother tries to control the phone / growing independence. Its not really about the phone, just like marriage fights arent really about money; they are about control.

This isnt going to be solved by anyone coming up with an ideal phone usage plan. Its about other stuff going on in the teen's life.

[Nammu]

Anyone who's been a single parent knows how tough it is and wouldn't assume the mum is negligent.