[UglyDucky]

I don't suppose most of us would know the answer to my question unless we were/are therapists, but there could be information out there somewhere on the topic. Since ruptures and repair are considered opportunities for growth and discovery, it seems possible. If anyone knows, one way or the other, please give the source of how you know.

[stopdog]

I don't put it past them. Books they have written talk about making the client angry or uncomfortable on purpose. I do not remember which specific books.
Here is a short list of some of the books I have read that I believe the most likely to contain such info:

Psychoanalytic Diagnosis - McWilliams
Being a Brainwise Therapist - Badenoch
Ariadne’s Thread -Cowan
Psychodynamic Psychotherapy - Ursono

The Talking Cure - Vaughan

How Psychotherapy Really Works - Gaylin

Psychodynamic Techniques – Maroda
Psychodynamic Therapy – Summers and Barber
Attachment in Psychotherapy-Wallin
Trauma and the Avoidant Client – Muller
Will I Ever Be Good Enough – McBride
Affect Intolerance in Patient and Analyst - Coen
Modes of Therapeutic Action – M. Stark
The Gift of Therapy – Yalom
Between Therapist and Client: The New Relationship – Kahn

In Session: The Bond Between Women and Their Therapists- Lott

Doing Psychotherapy Effectively - Weissmark and Giacomo, 101 Trauma Informed Interventions - Linda Curran, Advanced Techniques for Counseling and Psychotherapy - Conte, Psychoanalytic Technique Expanded - Volkan, Attachment Based Practice with Adults - Baim and Morrison, Language and Narratives in Counseling and Psychotherapy - Meier, Overcoming Resistance - Ellis

[stopdog]

Dr. Kathy, Ink.: When a Clients Get Angry at their Therapist

https://therapyandstuff.com/2013/10/...er-in-therapy/

I've never really had ruptures with any of my therapists. I'm sure there are some that do, but as in all things therapy, I'm sure there is a wide variety of approaches and I doubt they all agree on the therapeutic value of that kind of approach. It isn't something I could see any of my therapists doing intentionally; they were always pretty respectful and I never found them to play games like that. It would not fly well with me if they did.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by UglyDucky

I don't suppose most of us would know the answer to my question unless we were/are therapists, but there could be information out there somewhere on the topic. Since ruptures and repair are considered opportunities for growth and discovery, it seems possible. If anyone knows, one way or the other, please give the source of how you know.

The first page of Chapter 25 in this book appears to suggest yes when it notes that a therapist may deliberately cross transactions.

I wouldn't be at all surprised, but I think such a theory also needs to take into account that all relationships have natural ruptures, and that the therapeutic relationship is especially likely to invite ruptures without any planning because of its emotional and one-sided nature.

[justdesserts]

I don't know if my therapist has deliberately caused a rupture, but he has done something that he knew would affect me a lot and stir up feelings of betrayal and abandonment that we would have to work through. He was doing it for my own good and the good of the relationship, and he was committed to seeing me through my frustration and hurt.

[brillskep]

I have read and learned about ruptures and repair, but I have never read or been taught anything about causing ruptures on purpose and personally would consider that unethical. You are not the first person who asks the question though. But I wouldn't see the point of a therapist trying to cause it on purpose (unless they're really awful at managing sadistic impulses). Yes, rupture and repair are key in relational psychotherapy, but ruptures happen a lot. They happen naturally in any long-term relationship where there are strong emotions, attachment, intimacy, etc. Such as therapy. Why try to bring about ruptures if they will occur whether the therapist wants it or not? In my view, the focus is, or should be, on repair.

[brillskep]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

The first page of Chapter 25 in this book appears to suggest yes when it notes that a therapist may deliberately cross transactions.

I wouldn't be at all surprised, but I think such a theory also needs to take into account that all relationships have natural ruptures, and that the therapeutic relationship is especially likely to invite ruptures without any planning because of its emotional and one-sided nature.

I just want to point out that crossing a transaction isn't necessarily a rupture in the relationship. It can be used in order to bring a client back to the here-and-now and mostly just to point out patterns. There are many uses to it. My interpretation of that page is that there were two different ideas referring to crossed transactions:
1. A crossed transaction may (or may not) suggest that there is a rupture in the relationship (a crossed transaction may mean a client pretending not to understand a question so as to evade a painful answer and give a more logical answer instead or an unattuned therapist giving an unattuned answer, just to give a couple examples).
2. The therapist can use a crossed transaction when it seems appropriate (so then it will be a chosen technique so it doesn't imply there is any rupture). A crossed transaction may be used to stop unproductive communication or acting out and to look at what's happening.

[CantExplain]

I don't think Ts deliberately cause ruptures, but it's completely plausible that they do nothing to avoid them.

Madame T always seemed to be taken by surprise.

I think they are deliberately provoking but I don't think they intend to cause a complete break. At which point I am certain their main reaction is to observe.

[seoultous]

I am not sure what a rupture would look like. How are we defining rupture here? Is it simply getting so upset with your t that you want to quit?

Anyway, I think it may depend on the type of therapy one might be undergoing. With CBT there is a relationship with the therapist but I would be hard pressed to think of an instance where a therapist would intentionally initiate a rupture. I can think of a time when I was so angry with my therapist that I wanted to quit but it was more of an internal struggle than anything she did.

[musinglizzy]

Yes, I think my T caused a rupture on purpose over a year ago, and I'm still paying for it. The reason I think she deliberately caused it is because of how unethical her decision seemed to feel for me, and because she kept saying she sensed that something would happen around that time to cause a shift in our relationship. I said "so you had to cause it?" She said she thought it was going to happen regardless.

[PinkFlamingo99]

Originally Posted by musinglizzy

Yes, I think my T caused a rupture on purpose over a year ago, and I'm still paying for it. The reason I think she deliberately caused it is because of how unethical her decision seemed to feel for me, and because she kept saying she sensed that something would happen around that time to cause a shift in our relationship. I said "so you had to cause it?" She said she thought it was going to happen regardless.

You know what's weird? Mine said something similar. Something along the lines of "if you are obsessively terrified of being abandoned, you will probably cause it. I think your fear of me leaving you will end this relationship." Then she hurt me really soon after. I wonder if it's a way to protect themselves after they realize they effed up. I never really thought she caused it for the hell of it though,, more like she changed her mind and knew I would not be able to handle it.

Did she kind of imply that *you* would cause it, or just that it would happen?

[musinglizzy]

She didn't put anyone at fault. I just remember her saying "I had a feeling that something would happen to cause a shift in our relationship that we would have to work through."

But maybe I'm just crazy, but I swear, T1 sometimes does (or doesn't do) something JUST to see how I will react to it. Seriously. That's crazymaking in itself...lol

Wait....am I crazy? I wasn't until therapy.....

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by UglyDucky

I don't suppose most of us would know the answer to my question unless we were/are therapists, but there could be information out there somewhere on the topic. Since ruptures and repair are considered opportunities for growth and discovery, it seems possible. If anyone knows, one way or the other, please give the source of how you know.

Absolutely.

How I know is this: a former therapist of mine, around the time of the last presidential election, told me that if I was going to vote for Barack Obama I shouldn't bother ever coming back. I had not made any indication previously as to how I might intend to vote (her outspokenness about being a party-line Republican had always inspired me to leave the topic of politics well alone), and I can say that she certainly understood my moral compass well enough to know that I would take especially deep offense to her making that threat.

So, in all actuality, I don't know for sure that she willfully caused the rupture, but the only other possibility is that she was willing to bully me into voting her way, which I'm fairly sure is a crime of civil rights -- considering all that prior generations have gone through in order to secure my right to vote. Or, third possibility, she was gaming for either outcome -- passive aggressively creating a hostile environment for me to return to, or in lieu of that stealing my vote. Certainly none of these possibilities speak to an amount of good character on her part which would seem requisite for the job of caring for persons in vulnerable mental and emotional states. I never did go back, not for any of her reasons, but because I don't want to put myself in the path of any person who comfortable doing something like that.

But as I said, I suspect that was the outcome she was going for all along.

[UglyDucky]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I don't put it past them. Books they have written talk about making the client angry or uncomfortable on purpose. I do not remember which specific books.
Here is a short list of some of the books I have read that I believe the most likely to contain such info:

Psychoanalytic Diagnosis - McWilliams
Being a Brainwise Therapist - Badenoch
Ariadne’s Thread -Cowan
Psychodynamic Psychotherapy - Ursono

The Talking Cure - Vaughan

How Psychotherapy Really Works - Gaylin

Psychodynamic Techniques – Maroda
Psychodynamic Therapy – Summers and Barber
Attachment in Psychotherapy-Wallin
Trauma and the Avoidant Client – Muller
Will I Ever Be Good Enough – McBride
Affect Intolerance in Patient and Analyst - Coen
Modes of Therapeutic Action – M. Stark
The Gift of Therapy – Yalom
Between Therapist and Client: The New Relationship – Kahn

In Session: The Bond Between Women and Their Therapists- Lott

Doing Psychotherapy Effectively - Weissmark and Giacomo, 101 Trauma Informed Interventions - Linda Curran, Advanced Techniques for Counseling and Psychotherapy - Conte, Psychoanalytic Technique Expanded - Volkan, Attachment Based Practice with Adults - Baim and Morrison, Language and Narratives in Counseling and Psychotherapy - Meier, Overcoming Resistance - Ellis

Thanks for being so thorough on your sources; I've read several on your list. I've requested others from our library ILL. (One would think I'd get enough of this stuff in therapy...)

[UglyDucky]

Originally Posted by justdesserts

I don't know if my therapist has deliberately caused a rupture, but he has done something that he knew would affect me a lot and stir up feelings of betrayal and abandonment that we would have to work through. He was doing it for my own good and the good of the relationship, and he was committed to seeing me through my frustration and hurt.

I think my T does the same...

[UglyDucky]

Originally Posted by brillskep

I have read and learned about ruptures and repair, but I have never read or been taught anything about causing ruptures on purpose and personally would consider that unethical. You are not the first person who asks the question though. But I wouldn't see the point of a therapist trying to cause it on purpose (unless they're really awful at managing sadistic impulses). Yes, rupture and repair are key in relational psychotherapy, but ruptures happen a lot. They happen naturally in any long-term relationship where there are strong emotions, attachment, intimacy, etc. Such as therapy. Why try to bring about ruptures if they will occur whether the therapist wants it or not? In my view, the focus is, or should be, on repair.

Re: your question, "Why try to bring about ruptures..." I was thinking in terms of the T seeing the need to get to the core of an issue happening right then and caused a rupture to focus on that issue - to get the client to a specific place. I agree the focus should be on repair, and I wouldn't condone a T orchestrating ruptures for kicks, but ruptures and proper repair when they happen for a reason are necessary for therapy to move forward (or so I've read - sounds terribly painful to me).

[ruh roh]

I think some of them do whatever they want to do. Early on, my current therapist asked me if I would leave if I thought it wasn't working and I said probably not. Then I had this sudden horrible idea that she would cause me to leave in order to have the experience of being the one to leave, so I asked her if she was going to do that. She said no, but that there are some who would.

It doesn't seem to me that many of them really care about the client as a person, so much as a project (I even had one tell me she cared, but not personally). Although I have to say that this doesn't interfere with my appreciation for my therapist. I just try to keep it all in perspective.

[ruh roh]

Originally Posted by vonmoxie

Absolutely.

How I know is this: a former therapist of mine, around the time of the last presidential election, told me that if I was going to vote for Barack Obama I shouldn't bother ever coming back. I had not made any indication previously as to how I might intend to vote (her outspokenness about being a party-line Republican had always inspired me to leave the topic of politics well alone), and I can say that she certainly understood my moral compass well enough to know that I would take especially deep offense to her making that threat.

So, in all actuality, I don't know for sure that she willfully caused the rupture, but the only other possibility is that she was willing to bully me into voting her way, which I'm fairly sure is a crime of civil rights -- considering all that prior generations have gone through in order to secure my right to vote. Or, third possibility, she was gaming for either outcome -- passive aggressively creating a hostile environment for me to return to, or in lieu of that stealing my vote. Certainly none of these possibilities speak to an amount of good character on her part which would seem requisite for the job of caring for persons in vulnerable mental and emotional states. I never did go back, not for any of her reasons, but because I don't want to put myself in the path of any person who comfortable doing something like that.

But as I said, I suspect that was the outcome she was going for all along.

She did you a favor.

[PinkFlamingo99]

Originally Posted by musinglizzy

She didn't put anyone at fault. I just remember her saying "I had a feeling that something would happen to cause a shift in our relationship that we would have to work through."

But maybe I'm just crazy, but I swear, T1 sometimes does (or doesn't do) something JUST to see how I will react to it. Seriously. That's crazymaking in itself...lol

Wait....am I crazy? I wasn't until therapy.....

That seems so cruel though.

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

She did you a favor.

True that.

[runlola72]

I have wondered this myself. Occasionally I get caught up wondering if he is trying to elicit a reaction from me by responding to an email with a one-word answer. Then I realize that it's probably just him being busy, or trying to keep the boundaries intact. I still get mad as heck. The child in me is pretty angry.

I believe my t does this all of the damn time! It is an actual theory in Gestalt. Look up Fritz Perls on you tube with Gloria.
She does it to get my anger out, although it does work because I feel angry at her all of the time it also feels unnesscary. I feel like a puppet, she pulls my strings and I respond!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[musinglizzy]

Originally Posted by PinkFlamingo99

That seems so cruel though.

Thanks. I feel that way too. But she just doesn't get it. I'm really struggling right now..... and it sucks that I long so much to hear from her. I hate attachment. I hate therapy. But I'm kinda stuck with her right now....I can't seem to quit. I just know, based on her words and her behavior, that this was intended to stir up a reaction. What she didn't know, was that I would still be suffering from it over a year later. She was surprised it affected me as badly as it did. I'm afraid I'll never get over it....