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  #26  
Old Aug 06, 2016, 12:07 PM
BudFox BudFox is offline
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Originally Posted by Lauliza View Post
Rainbow's T isn't telling her how to love her life, she is discouraging behavior as it relates to her therapy and how she relates to her T. Ts certainly can be qualified to advise clients on how to live their lives if certain behavior patterns are interfering with their happiness. Ts shouldn't tell clients where to work or go to school or what to eat, of course. But if a client is, say, obsessing over T (or someone else) to the extent that it interferes with real life, I think it's fair to offer real life advice. Ts aren't designated life experts of course, but they are usually advising on the basics, mostly around self care. It's simple, but things are sometimes clearer to someone on the outside looking in than to the people involved.
I was referring to this part:
"The more you can sit with some of the triggers and sort through it and get yourself back on track....the better and healthier for you."

I'm not clear what in a therapist's training equips them to declare such a thing. A therapist's opinion or insight is no more valid than anyone else's, and in fact might be less reliable, since they are more invested in how it is received and because their training and indoctrination encourages them to believe that they possess powers of clairvoyance and omniscience that they likely do not possess. I understand that everyone has blind spots, and sometimes external feedback can be helpful, but giving advice is a very very tricky and perilous thing in my opinion. I experienced this kind of dynamic in therapy as instantly infantilizing and also aggressive and intrusive.

Also, to be honest I find this disturbing:
"Ts certainly can be qualified to advise clients on how to live their lives if certain behavior patterns are interfering with their happiness."
Thanks for this!
rainbow8

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  #27  
Old Aug 06, 2016, 03:28 PM
Anonymous37872
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Rainbow,

I don't really have advice for you. And I haven't kept up on all your posts (in fact, I was not logging onto this forum for a few years there). However, I felt like I needed to let you know this: so much of what you write here reminds me of myself and my own challenges. You might hear that all the time. But every time I read one of your posts, I am continually thinking, "woah, we have that in common too?" I don't share a whole lot of specifics here, but it seems like we must be feeling some of the same intense pain, especially about T. I just wanted you to know that you are not alone in this struggle. Reading your posts sometimes helps me articulate my own challenges as well, so I thank you for being brave enough to share.

I agree DBT skills can be helpful. I have also recently been having a lot of difficulty remembering both what those skills are and how to use them when I am in emotion mind. T suggested two things. One, a DBT app, to be able to access skills any time. The other was to list a few particularly helpful skills on a bulletin board in my home. It sounds so simple, but I think this will help me a lot.

I wish you the absolute best, and I wholeheartedly believe it will not always hurt this much. Keep pushing through!:
Thanks for this!
kecanoe, rainbow8
  #28  
Old Aug 06, 2016, 05:49 PM
Luce Luce is offline
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Originally Posted by BudFox View Post

I'm not clear what in a therapist's training equips them to declare such a thing.
I'll take a guess and say that's because you are not a trained therapist.
Thanks for this!
AllHeart, Ellahmae, justdesserts, LonesomeTonight, rainbow8, skysblue, Trippin2.0
  #29  
Old Aug 06, 2016, 08:24 PM
BudFox BudFox is offline
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Originally Posted by Luce View Post
I'll take a guess and say that's because you are not a trained therapist.
So you're saying therapists are indeed somehow qualified by their training to know what is best or healthiest for other people? Would love to know how that is possible, if you or a trained therapist can clarify.
Thanks for this!
rainbow8
  #30  
Old Aug 06, 2016, 08:35 PM
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Rainbow, sorry your thread is trying to get derailed rather than staying focused on your concerns.

You have a good therapist who understands your challenges with attachment. You know you will talk about this situation when you meet again and I suspect you will come away feeling a bit more settled. This is a hard time of year for you, particularly coming around the anniversary of your husband's passing. Take care of yourself and give yourself time.
Thanks for this!
1stepatatime, AllHeart, Ellahmae, Gavinandnikki, kecanoe, Lauliza, LonesomeTonight, rainbow8, ScarletPimpernel, Trippin2.0
  #31  
Old Aug 06, 2016, 11:47 PM
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Lauliza Lauliza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudFox View Post


Also, to be honest I find this disturbing:
"Ts certainly can be qualified to advise clients on how to live their lives if certain behavior patterns are interfering with their happiness."
I didn't word this well. Ts can be as qualified to give generic, common sense advice based on what the client has already expressed or shown. Advice along the lines of : "texting so and so may not be a good idea if you feel depressed afterward". A therapist isn't more knowledgable about these things, it's just that the conversations tend to come up in therapy.

In Rainbow's case, the T told her what she thought would be best based on what Rainbpw herself has expressed. She's not telling her what to do in her life, she's advising Rainbow to relate to her in a way that might be more helpful as it relates to her therapy.

No where in their training is a future therapist told they are better at life than anyone else. In fact, I'm confident many therapists think otherwise. They aren't told that their clients are helpless and they certainly aren't taught to treat them as such. What therapists are trained in is psych theory and how interpret and apply them in the real world. T's are taught coping methods that are shown to be useful, not to think they actually know what's "best" for others. They just know what might be helpful based on research and their experience.

I think in Rainbows case, her T's advice stems from their relationship. Rainbow, I'm sorry you're hurting but I'm glad you have a T that seems to get you and knows what can help in situations such as yours.

Last edited by Lauliza; Aug 07, 2016 at 12:26 AM.
Thanks for this!
brillskep, CentralPark, divine1966, Luce, rainbow8, skysblue, Trippin2.0, Yours_Truly
  #32  
Old Aug 06, 2016, 11:55 PM
Luce Luce is offline
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Originally Posted by BudFox View Post
So you're saying therapists are indeed somehow qualified by their training to know what is best or healthiest for other people? Would love to know how that is possible, if you or a trained therapist can clarify.
I am saying what I said: I guess the reason you don't know the content of their training is because you are not a trained therapist.
Thanks for this!
AllHeart, rainbow8, skysblue
  #33  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 12:20 AM
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velcro003 velcro003 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lauliza View Post

No where in their training is a future therapist told they are better at life than anyone else. In fact, I'm confident many therapists think otherwise. They aren't told that their clients are helpless and they certainly aren't taught to treat them as such. What therapists are trained in is psych theory and how interpret and apply them in the real world. T's are taught coping methods that are shown to be useful, not to think they actually know what's "best" for others. They just know what might be helpful, that's all. The two are not the same thing.
I will say, my T usually says "I have listened to many stories over my years, and this sounds like X, but I am no expert." I will maybe agree with what she is saying, or maybe I roll my eyes at her...but she remains open-minded, and okay with whatever it is I bring her.
Thanks for this!
justdesserts, Lauliza, LonesomeTonight, rainbow8, Yours_Truly
  #34  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 12:37 AM
brillskep brillskep is offline
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I'm sorry you're so affected. I think your therapist's response is quite gracious, even though she does indeed really "get real" talking about sitting with your feelings before sending them away. Still, I think she combines that with empathy and good wishes for you. I say this because I know that, when I am feeling triggered or otherwise affected by something my therapist does, everything he says to me starts feeling much worse than I would otherwise think (and I perceive it as being okay after a while).

Did your therapist usually respond in a detailed manner before? As far as I understood your situation with what she was wearing, this was about your feeling triggered, not about a therapeutic mistake she made or a misunderstanding to be clarified. I think the different clothes in and out of session sound like a symbol as well as a path to exploring your fantasies about her role in your life, the needs that are fulfilled by this fantasy, the rejection and grief you feel. It seems to me that all this is way too complex for an email. It is deep therapy work. So perhaps her not acknowledging it might have to do with the need to explore more. At least this is how I think about it.

I hope you can clarify this the next time you meet and have a good session.
Thanks for this!
Lauliza, LonesomeTonight, rainbow8, Yours_Truly
  #35  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 08:20 AM
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BayBrony BayBrony is offline
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Originally Posted by brillskep View Post
I'm sorry you're so affected. I think your therapist's response is quite gracious, even though she does indeed really "get real" talking about sitting with your feelings before sending them away. Still, I think she combines that with empathy and good wishes for you. I say this because I know that, when I am feeling triggered or otherwise affected by something my therapist does, everything he says to me starts feeling much worse than I would otherwise think (and I perceive it as being okay after a while).

Did your therapist usually respond in a detailed manner before? As far as I understood your situation with what she was wearing, this was about your feeling triggered, not about a therapeutic mistake she made or a misunderstanding to be clarified. I think the different clothes in and out of session sound like a symbol as well as a path to exploring your fantasies about her role in your life, the needs that are fulfilled by this fantasy, the rejection and grief you feel. It seems to me that all this is way too complex for an email. It is deep therapy work. So perhaps her not acknowledging it might have to do with the need to explore more. At least this is how I think about it.

I hope you can clarify this the next time you meet and have a good session.


I agree with this. My T won't touch anything deep/triggering in an email. If something actually triggered me she will encourage me to support myself but she won't discuss the trigger with me until session

Also I've found it very helpful to imagine my T reading her messages to me outloud. They often sound much more caring and supportive in her voice than in my own
Thanks for this!
brillskep, CentralPark, kecanoe, rainbow8, Yours_Truly
  #36  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 08:21 AM
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rainbow8 rainbow8 is offline
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Originally Posted by atisketatasket View Post
At the risk of putting my foot in it again - and I want to say it because this clearly hurts you so much - I am wondering whether it is a desire for friendship only?

It occurred to me, driving down the Mass Pike this afternoon (great place for thinking, the Mass Pike), that there's the desire for friendship with yoir therapist, there's the child desire for maternal security, and then there's maybe a maternal attitude towards your therapist (I was thinking about the clothing issue there). With each of those, there would be individual triggers unique to that aspect of your relationship. With this situation all three are triggered - the child feels abandoned by a mother figure, the friend feels rejected, the mother feels pushed away by her child's independence. That might be why your normal coping mechanisms are not working.

I am glad to hear she's taught you coping mechanisms, by the way, it's just they don't seem to work very well by what you post on here.

And also...is she trying to assert stronger boundaries generally, not just email? Maybe that's her way of trying to force you into stronger coping skills? (A counterproductive move, if so.)
Thank you! That's a good analysis and I agree that 3 parts were triggered. No, my T has not wanted to change anything other than the emailing.
Thanks for this!
atisketatasket
  #37  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 08:30 AM
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rainbow8 rainbow8 is offline
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Originally Posted by JaneTennison1 View Post
Email doesn't seem to be helping you. My current T is a fan of doing only what helps me. You get triggered and fire off a response quickly, then think about whether she will answer, then ruminate about the answer and then it will be Tuesday again. I just wonder how this helps you (as the client) I understand being defensive of T, I certainly would not have left a T on advice of others, but you sound a little stuck in this pattern. Maybe there is a different way to go about this? I'm not saying you are not progressing just that there may be a different way to help you "unstick"
I agree that email isn't helping me but it's hard to give up. I've emailed my T for the 6 years I've been seeing her. We've changed the rules a few times. She used to answer in detail but I also used to write less. I never emailed more than a couple times a week, though. For a long time, I could email but she didn't answer. That was a mutual decision but when my husband got sick, she answered again because I needed more support.

A couple of months ago she suggested journaling and not emailing. I tried but it's hard. I am going to try again because she is getting firmer about it. It is a big deal for me because it reinforces the reality of our relationship. It feels like a stab to my heart but I have to accept it. I don't know how but I have to. Thank you, Jane.
  #38  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 08:41 AM
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rainbow8 rainbow8 is offline
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Originally Posted by ruh roh View Post
Hi Rainbow. It's hard to see you in so much pain. I can't remember if you've answered this before, but is this only an issue with therapists and no one else in your life? What would happen if you were not in therapy, would you struggle with any other relationship or personal situation? Because that would be something to work on as a way to focus on something other than a therapist.

I don't know much about IFS, but it sounds like it's not a good fit for whatever you need, which is maybe why your therapist doesn't put a big focus on it as much as the SE. From what you've written in the past, it seems you did not really separate from your mother, not that you did not form an attachment. You seem to be really good at the attaching part. I hope you and she can figure out an approach that works. You should not have to suffer so much from therapy.
Thanks, ruh roh. I've always attached to unavailable people in my life and gotten hurt by them and when I began therapy, I used my Ts the same way. I'm not sure if I would act that way now. I still get hurt when people seemingly reject me, and I want a lot of attention. I'm getting better at being aware of my triggers in real life. It seems with T, all h---- breaks loose though!

I like IFS better than any other technique but a lot of sessions we just talk and do SE. All my Ts knew I had trouble separating from my mother so maybe that's what they meant that my needs weren't met. It does make more sense to me.
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ruh roh
Thanks for this!
ruh roh
  #39  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 09:00 AM
Anonymous55498
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I have struggled with emails between sessions with both of my Ts. The first one handled it really poorly I think, in a very inconsistent and messy way. He would go through cycles of telling me no email communication, then other times inviting it and getting engaged in it in ways that were far beyond a therapist's role. It really did not help me and often would drive me nuts.

Current T allows emails as much as I want to send them, and encourages it somewhat, but he keeps a minimalistic and practical stance in a very consistent, predictable way in the quantity and quality of responses. However I desire more interaction with him, I like this much better in the context of therapy. I also find it much more helpful than previous T's messy ways to foster positive change in my habits. Of course it is not always pleasant and far from linear, I go through cycles of writing lots to him about random stuff and then tempering it and keeping it focused and minimalistic myself. The key element for me that, I feel, facilitates progress, is his consistent behavior. I think that if he fed my desire for more (and more varied) email interaction, that would do more harm than keeping it low key and practical. The way it works for me, I think, is that it allows me myself to regulate my emotions and expression rather than trying to influence me externally. So I get to examine my feelings, reactions, desires etc on my own most of the time and we can discuss anything in sessions. But my T is not there to provide constant attention and companionship, is more a guide and a person who maintains a certain kind of relationship with me in order for me to discover stuff about myself using the relationship. Of course sometimes the maintenance of the relationship involves that he purposefully triggers me with some words or gestures. One thing I've noticed is that I am much less reactive to these things than I used to be, not only in my expression and contact but also internally. I feel that I have become more stable and less affected by my environment and events, or at least do not project my feelings into those so often. It often takes white knuckling but after a while it has become much more even and manageable.
Thanks for this!
rainbow8, Trippin2.0, Yours_Truly
  #40  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 09:22 AM
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divine1966 divine1966 is offline
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I think it's common to misinterpret or misunderstand things in texts and emails so it is a wise suggestion to limit emails to emergency and wait until the session. If emailing and reading responses is triggering and not as productive as a session it's wise to limit it. I think this t has wise suggestions.

Now what if you type but not send and kind of keep it as a journal but not like journal she suggested but more like in a form or email? And what if you post on
Here when you get tempted to email?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for this!
LonesomeTonight, rainbow8, Trippin2.0
  #41  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 09:38 AM
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PinkFlamingo99 PinkFlamingo99 is offline
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I think it's hurtful when a T's responses to emails start to change. First 4 yrs, I got paragraphs which then dwindled into sentences. Ouch. It's all about the consistency. You give emails, you take them away, you give them back... It's all triggering.
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atisketatasket, LonesomeTonight, ruh roh
Thanks for this!
1stepatatime, kecanoe, LonesomeTonight, rainbow8
  #42  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 09:41 AM
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ruh roh ruh roh is offline
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Emails can work great when both people see the value in them and they don't cause misunderstandings--so it is possible. In rainbow's case, it looks like her therapist is deciding that emails aren't helpful, so she doesn't make her email responses very useful--it's almost like negative conditioning. The messages have been mixed. At first, r8's therapist said she did not have to stop, and now she is encouraging it. I find it troubling, but I'm not there to know the in person dynamic.

It's worth being curious about--trying to sit with feelings--but this email is more directive and parental. So it has the opposite effect of empowerment, placing r8 in the child role. Seems confusing to me. Maybe I'm reading it all wrong. I just hope you work it out with her, rainbow.
Thanks for this!
atisketatasket, LonesomeTonight, rainbow8
  #43  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 10:06 AM
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atisketatasket atisketatasket is offline
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Originally Posted by ruh roh View Post
Emails can work great when both people see the value in them and they don't cause misunderstandings--so it is possible.
And also when both take care over their words. I've only really emailed one therapist - No. 3, for support during the 5 weeks between seeing her in-person and seeing No. 2 in-person. She's thorough, clear, and obviously doesn't dash them off. In fact she might be one of the best email correspondents I've ever had.

But I think if our emailing had been a long-term thing, eventually it would lose its usefulness and also both of us would stop taking so much care with them.
Thanks for this!
rainbow8
  #44  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 10:12 AM
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rainbow8 rainbow8 is offline
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My T never wanted to allow email in the first place. It was mutual to change the rules about it. She always said she didn't want to do therapy via email. I understand why so emailed what she did this time. That's what she's been saying for a few months now in session too. I thought emailing was the greatest thing about therapy. But it's not the email per se that's the problem!! It's the reality of the relationship. It's what email meant to me, and now I have to accept that my T is a professional, not someone to email like a friend, and that therapy stays in the session. The core stuff is what my problem is. Email is the manifestation of that. Am I making sense? I'm kind of depressed about it all right now but living my life.
Hugs from:
CentralPark, Gavinandnikki, kecanoe, Lauliza, LonesomeTonight, unaluna
Thanks for this!
Trippin2.0
  #45  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 10:13 AM
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BayBrony BayBrony is offline
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Originally Posted by atisketatasket View Post
And also when both take care over their words. I've only really emailed one therapist - No. 3, for support during the 5 weeks between seeing her in-person and seeing No. 2 in-person. She's thorough, clear, and obviously doesn't dash them off. In fact she might be one of the best email correspondents I've ever had.

But I think if our emailing had been a long-term thing, eventually it would lose its usefulness and also both of us would stop taking so much care with them.
My T is so careful with words that she sort of phased out most email replies. I am difficult to read and rarely ask for help ( for example if thinking about suicide I.might say "my thoughts are a bit dark")
I also tend to read between the lines of what people say/don't say.
My T decided the emailing was valuable but she thought it was too challenging to write a helpful response on her side. She felt she couldn't really tell where I was for sure through my writing. So now we discuss my emails in session, and I tend to reserve emails for questions about HOW to do something rather than feelings.
At first I was hurt but I've come to recognize it spares a lot of hurt feelings on my side. I miss my email responses sometimes but I see the wisdom.
Thanks for this!
Lauliza, LonesomeTonight, rainbow8, Trippin2.0
  #46  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 11:43 AM
BudFox BudFox is offline
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Originally Posted by Lauliza View Post
I didn't word this well. Ts can be as qualified to give generic, common sense advice based on what the client has already expressed or shown. Advice along the lines of : "texting so and so may not be a good idea if you feel depressed afterward".
If it's common sense, why pay a therapist to give it? When I wondered out loud about how a T is qualified to do this, I was asking a rhetorical question. There is no answer. A person cannot be trained to have more common sense or wisdom about life.

Also, the hypothetical example you give above, as well as the real examples given by Rainbow, sound to me very much like an adult talking to a child. Adults in healthy relationship just do not say such things. Her T did not acknowledge the original difficulty that prompted Rainbow to write, which is also patronizing.

If Rainbow feels hurt and rejected, that speaks for itself. Why rationalize this as a necessary step to some future enlightenment? I've been talked to this way in therapy a little, and it felt quite damaging to self-respect and autonomy, unless I protested.

If I were the T, I'd say -- pay no more attention to the horses**t coming out of my mouth than you do your own inner wisdom. Trust your gut first. Of course that would be giving advice...
Thanks for this!
rainbow8
  #47  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 12:50 PM
Anonymous37903
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My T never wanted to allow email in the first place. It was mutual to change the rules about it. She always said she didn't want to do therapy via email. I understand why so emailed what she did this time. That's what she's been saying for a few months now in session too. I thought emailing was the greatest thing about therapy. But it's not the email per se that's the problem!! It's the reality of the relationship. It's what email meant to me, and now I have to accept that my T is a professional, not someone to email like a friend, and that therapy stays in the session. The core stuff is what my problem is. Email is the manifestation of that. Am I making sense? I'm kind of depressed about it all right now but living my life.
Years ago I'd email T from my mind, and then in the reality I get a reply and it's like the 2worlds collide. The real ams the fantasy didn't fit.
Is better now. I'm emailing her the real person.
Thanks for this!
rainbow8
  #48  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 02:08 PM
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rainbow8 rainbow8 is offline
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Originally Posted by divine1966 View Post
I think it's common to misinterpret or misunderstand things in texts and emails so it is a wise suggestion to limit emails to emergency and wait until the session. If emailing and reading responses is triggering and not as productive as a session it's wise to limit it. I think this t has wise suggestions.

Now what if you type but not send and kind of keep it as a journal but not like journal she suggested but more like in a form or email? And what if you post on
Here when you get tempted to email?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote:
Originally Posted by divine1966 View Post
I understand. I just think that maybe constant contact with t isn't working as much . What if you email your friends when you feel upset? Just a suggestion

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for all of your posts, divine. I call and email friends when upset but it's kind of embarrassing to say, " I'm falling apart because my T went for a walk after my session and I was triggered by seeing her." I actually did tell 2 friends: one listened and the other said to quit therapy. I have 2 friends who understand me, and I have a friend I met online who I email. As you can see, I also start a lot of threads when I feel this way! I don't have constant contact with T. Email is one after my session, and she replies once. That used to work fine but then she told me processing my session in an email with her isn't heading in the direction we want. Similar to what she just emailed. The email from her I posted didn't come out if the clear blue! There's a history behind it.
  #49  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 02:17 PM
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rainbow8 rainbow8 is offline
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Originally Posted by healinghippo38 View Post
Rainbow,

I don't really have advice for you. And I haven't kept up on all your posts (in fact, I was not logging onto this forum for a few years there). However, I felt like I needed to let you know this: so much of what you write here reminds me of myself and my own challenges. You might hear that all the time. But every time I read one of your posts, I am continually thinking, "woah, we have that in common too?" I don't share a whole lot of specifics here, but it seems like we must be feeling some of the same intense pain, especially about T. I just wanted you to know that you are not alone in this struggle. Reading your posts sometimes helps me articulate my own challenges as well, so I thank you for being brave enough to share.

I agree DBT skills can be helpful. I have also recently been having a lot of difficulty remembering both what those skills are and how to use them when I am in emotion mind. T suggested two things. One, a DBT app, to be able to access skills any time. The other was to list a few particularly helpful skills on a bulletin board in my home. It sounds so simple, but I think this will help me a lot.

I wish you the absolute best, and I wholeheartedly believe it will not always hurt this much. Keep pushing through!:
Thank you very much, HH. I read some of your threads. I want to send you a PM when I get a chance. Yes, I need to look at my DBT notes.

Last edited by rainbow8; Aug 07, 2016 at 03:01 PM. Reason: Typo
  #50  
Old Aug 07, 2016, 02:23 PM
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atisketatasket atisketatasket is offline
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Originally Posted by BudFox View Post
If it's common sense, why pay a therapist to give it? When I wondered out loud about how a T is qualified to do this, I was asking a rhetorical question. There is no answer. A person cannot be trained to have more common sense or wisdom about life.

Actually I think it's not a rhetorical question, and does have an answer - which is that the qualification comes not from any intellectual merit, but from the authority invested in therapists by society, by clients, and by therapists themselves.

It's kind of like whoever gets elected president has by virtue of being voted in access to nuclear codes, however qualified that person might or might not be objectively.

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Thanks for this!
awkwardlyyours, rainbow8, unaluna
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My Support Forums is the online community that was originally begun as the Psych Central Forums in 2001. It now runs as an independent self-help support group community for mental health, personality, and psychological issues and is overseen by a group of dedicated, caring volunteers from around the world.

 

Helplines and Lifelines

The material on this site is for informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment provided by a qualified health care provider.

Always consult your doctor or mental health professional before trying anything you read here.