[Waterbear]

I am still having real problems with this talking stuff. Had a session today where I just didn't have any words. I am normally very self aware but with this one I just don't get it. Can't talk or won't talk I just don't really know. I have lots of reasons but I don't know what to do with them all. My T said something and in it were the words 'when you choose not to talk' and it got me thinking. Is it always a choice that I have?

She was talking about changing and she was questioning whether we want me to change, she said 'do we really want to change -----, the person that you are?'

I wrote that I wanted to be able to talk and as I was doing so I became really sad. I could feel the tears welling up, though as usual I shoved it back down as quick as it came.

She asked if I was in any way using not taking as punishment. She went on to talk about the fact that I may be not talking as a way to punish those around me, that she felt punished at the beginning of the session when I wouldn't talk. She knows that T isn't about her but me, and she didn't mean to be horrible. I get what she was saying but I don't realise that I am doing it for these reasons, if indeed I am. I said that if I was punishing anyone it would be me, and that I certainly do punish myself after the event when I can't talk.

This isn't only a problem in T, it has always been a part of who I am. I don't express how I am feeling or what I am thinking to other people. I often just don't see the point. It isn't like anyone would care about what I have to say anyway.

I feel like no matter what I say is never going to be able to express correctly how I think or feel and that if I do say how it is for me then it opens me to being hurt. Best all round not to say anything at all.

I was doing OK at getting better at this with T before she went on holiday but since it has been really hard. My H returned from deployment when she was away too and I do OK for the first week at opening up to him but after that I just feel like I have shut down with everyone again.

I can talk normally out of session when it isn't deep stuff so much and when the focus isn't all on me but doing it in T is so hard.

I am doing some internal digging on this so any thoughts welcome.

When I have no words, my T has suggested it may relate to preverbal trauma (ie infanthood) and a time when I literally didn't have words to describe my feelings. I'm not sure if it applies to you, but it certainly resonated with me.

[dancinglady]

That is true. When I could not talk he would read toddler books that I picked out from the library about feelings. That was a great breakthrough.

[Waterbear]

I kept looking at the kids books in Ts office today and wanted to ask her to read to me but I couldn't. Maybe it would be an idea worth voicing if I can.

I think maybe T could let the silence 'be' in the room for a while. That in itself is communication.

When my daughter was around the age of 5, she would refuse to speak to me when I picked her up, and I felt that she was angry and was 'punishing me'. Like you, I also tend to think that others may not be interested in my thoughts and feelings. I am trying to think whether I hid my thoughts and feelings as a child out of punishment or self preservation. I think the latter. I might be annoyed if a T suggested to me that I was doing to punish ish her. How do you feel? I would however, be delighted if a T shared how she felt about it, like your T is doing.

[Waterbear]

Originally Posted by _Mouse

I think maybe T could let the silence 'be' in the room for a while. That in itself is communication.

She does Mouse. For longer than I think a lot of Ts could bear. Problem has always been that I do need a bit of help in talking and sometime trying to get that balance right is difficult. I want her to help but not push. Tough stuff.

[Waterbear]

Originally Posted by Brown Owl

When my daughter was around the age of 5, she would refuse to speak to me when I picked her up, and I felt that she was angry and was 'punishing me'. Like you, I also tend to think that others may not be interested in my thoughts and feelings. I am trying to think whether I hid my thoughts and feelings as a child out of punishment or self preservation. I think the latter. I might be annoyed if a T suggested to me that I was doing to punish ish her. How do you feel? I would however, be delighted if a T shared how she felt about it, like your T is doing.

Yeah, its a tough one. I never really feel like my T brings her stuff into the room really. She brings her emotions to help me learn but not her stuff, but today it felt a little bit like this was something of hers, not mine. I agree with you that I feel it is more self preservation than punishment. I punish myself afterwards but at the time it doesn't enter my head. I could be doing it subconsciously but I don't think I am.

Thing is, I think maybe it annoyed her today. I don't know. She didn't say so and she didn't let it show really but it is so hard to tell with people sometimes. I might end up asking her and if it did then I don't know how that would make me feel.

[Soccer mom]

Be gentle to yourself. I also had a hard time talking with ex-T. and she didn't handle it well. She said she always had to prompt me so one time she said she wasn't going to talk the entire session. I used to talk and talk but once the transference started I got very quiet. As my current T says, I did talk a lot but a lot of it was in body language.

With current T, it has helped greatly to be able to email her. Has that been offered?

[Waterbear]

Originally Posted by Soccer mom

Be gentle to yourself. I also had a hard time talking with ex-T. and she didn't handle it well. She said she always had to prompt me so one time she said she wasn't going to talk the entire session. I used to talk and talk but once the transference started I got very quiet. As my current T says, I did talk a lot but a lot of it was in body language.

With current T, it has helped greatly to be able to email her. Has that been offered?

Thank you. Being gentle with myself isn't something I have ever been any good at, but I am trying. We do email, though I haven't done so for several weeks now which may be adding yo the problem. I asked her today if I could email this week and she said "you know that it is always OK, right"

I emailed her last night and text to say that I had. She text back to explain that she was working tonight but would read tomorrow lunch time.

A part of me wants to email and take back what I said which had never happened before. I just don't know what is going on between us. I have never felt that I really connected with her. It is as if I just can't 'see' her. Like I want to really look at her and see her but can't. I want to feel with her what I did with old T but I don't. Working with her was definitely helping though.

She asked where I felt she was today and I said that she was there, but what I didn't say was that it felt that she was just sitting on the other side of my walls waiting for me to come out. I want her to sit on the top of the wall with me.

[dancinglady]

Originally Posted by Waterbear

I kept looking at the kids books in Ts office today and wanted to ask her to read to me but I couldn't. Maybe it would be an idea worth voicing if I can.

I just handed a book to my T and he read it.

[Soccer mom]

Originally Posted by Waterbear

Thank you. Being gentle with myself isn't something I have ever been any good at, but I am trying. We do email, though I haven't done so for several weeks now which may be adding yo the problem. I asked her today if I could email this week and she said "you know that it is always OK, right"


I emailed her last night and text to say that I had. She text back to explain that she was working tonight but would read tomorrow lunch time.


A part of me wants to email and take back what I said which had never happened before. I just don't know what is going on between us. I have never felt that I really connected with her. It is as if I just can't 'see' her. Like I want to really look at her and see her but can't. I want to feel with her what I did with old T but I don't. Working with her was definitely helping though.


She asked where I felt she was today and I said that she was there, but what I didn't say was that it felt that she was just sitting on the other side of my walls waiting for me to come out. I want her to sit on the top of the wall with me.

I can't believe you brought up the wall!!! My ex told me that her side of the wall looked like mine. I told her I didn't want her to wait for me to come over. I wanted her to make the effort to come to my side. The first thing new T asked was what my side of the wall looked like. It was so interesting to discuss.

Originally Posted by Waterbear

She does Mouse. For longer than I think a lot of Ts could bear. Problem has always been that I do need a bit of help in talking and sometime trying to get that balance right is difficult. I want her to help but not push. Tough stuff.

How long you been with this T?

[Waterbear]

Six months of twice a week.

Originally Posted by Waterbear

Six months of twice a week.

Early days. Things change.

[Waterbear]

Time, I know.

[Waterbear]

Originally Posted by Soccer mom

I can't believe you brought up the wall!!! My ex told me that her side of the wall looked like mine. I told her I didn't want her to wait for me to come over. I wanted her to make the effort to come to my side. The first thing new T asked was what my side of the wall looked like. It was so interesting to discuss.

I bet it was. I wish I had brought it up with her but I couldn't. Maybe another day. I think I have just been going through an 'I can't be bothered' phase and hope it will pass. The other thing that really stood out is that I just feel lost inside when it comes to talking. Overwhelmed maybe but just really, really unsure.

'Can't be bothered' is a defence

[Waterbear]

Is it or is it just possible that I am tired and needed to take a break from trying so hard to do something that really doesn't come easy for me?

Hi Waterbear,
This happens all of the time with me and t. If you have read any of my threads t always says that when I don't talk to her I am punishing her, I don't feel that I did that I was punishing her but the more I thought about what was happening between us was a rupture or misattunement. I had heard her say something that made me angry and then I would just silence myself and refuse to speak to her anymore. For me it was a choice not to speak to her and it was a procedural learning that I have carried into now. I learned when I was very young that if I fought back I would get punished and if I disagreed I also would be punished so the best thing I could do was be quiet and not speak. My t always asks how to support me when this happens, truth is I don't know yet and I get mad that she doesn't know. I agree with echos that this is pre verbal.

[Waterbear]

Thanks Mona, I appreciate the insight but it just doesn't resonate with me unfortunately. My T mentioned that I appeared as a teenager to her and that is a time of my life where I was largely silent. I had people trying to make me talk but I couldn't or wouldn't then either. It was as if I was saying I didnt need anyone else when the reality was that I desperately wanted someone to help me. I didn't know how to start telling anyone what had happened to me, I didn't even know what it was. Maybe this is a part of it for me?

I don't know, it could in reality be absolutely anything, everything or nothing.

[Waterbear]

To add to the mix my T thinks there is a possibility that I am on the autism spectrum and as far as I know this can cause communication issues. It literally just doesn't feel normal for me to talk to people about stuff. I likened it to my T having been born as someone who walks on legs into a world of people who walk on their hands. Sometimes you give it a go, to fit in, but other times you just go 'sod it this is too much effort. I am gonna walk on my legs for a bit'.

Originally Posted by Waterbear

To add to the mix my T thinks there is a possibility that I am on the autism spectrum and as far as I know this can cause communication issues. It literally just doesn't feel normal for me to talk to people about stuff. I likened it to my T having been born as someone who walks on legs into a world of people who walk on their hands. Sometimes you give it a go, to fit in, but other times you just go 'sod it this is too much effort. I am gonna walk on my legs for a bit'.

How do you feel about your ts thoughts on being on the autism spectrum, does this fit for you?
I have known a lot of people in the autism spectrum and it's like you describe very articulately that they are on a different wavelength and it's hard to communicate with them.
I often heard Rainbow talking about her mutism when she was younger? I often considered that I was somewhere in the spectrum too or had issues with selective mutism.
Just because we can talk doesn't mean we have to, perhaps you are more comfortable communicating in other ways. What about talking to others doesn't feel normal? I am curious because we are here communicating with each other but not verbally.

[Waterbear]

I had often wondered whether I may have been and was actually considering raising it the session that she mentioned it in. I don't know, I just often feel that I see things that others don't, pay attention to things others don't. I was always being told off for staring as a child and still do it now when I am not paying attention. There are several things that have made me think over the years, and still do.

It is several things that just don't feel right about communicating. Firstly it is the actual voicing of things. I can write to my T in the session but the actual speaking bit is so much harder. This is the same out of session but without the opportunity to write to those I am trying to communicate with. I sometimes just switch off from the conversation if I am not interested in it. I find it much easier to talk if I am looking away and doing something else at the same time so will often tap or fidget. This to others may seem like I am not paying attention but this is when I am most engaged. I sent my T an email yesterday and she replied saying there was a lot for her to respond to but I saw very little for her to respond to, like it didn't need a response, it was just me writing my thoughts.

I have often found it easier to communicate if I am having more than one conversation at the same time. I try not to do this though because most people just seem to be able to handle this one. It doesn't matter whether it is two conversations with the same person or one with two people. My Dad sees this most and can sometimes keep up because he is pretty switched on but as he gets older he can do this less and less. It's like my brain finds it easier to communicate verbally if it is engaged elsewhere as well.

In session when we work creatively I find it much easier and this is always a possibility. I find it easier when we are talking about a picture we are looking at or when I am fiddling with stones. It's just that last session I didn't even feel like doing any of these things even when T offered so I didn't help myself, that I know now.

Sometimes it feels dangerous to talk because I open myself up to criticism and attack and sometimes there are so many thoughts I can't quite figure out what to pluck out, what to choose to try to say. Other times there is nothing up there at all, like it has all flown out for the time I am in the company of another person. Sometimes the situation just seems so overwhelming that I can't possibly even think of speaking.

It just really frustrates me that it doesn't come naturally for me because I want to be someone who talks easily and normally. I want to have friends and be able to go out in groups. My family have always seen me as someone odd, someone sullen but then there was a lot going on for me that they had no idea about.

People often see people who don't talk as odd because talking is supposed to be enjoyable, social a way of expressing ourselves. You are right though the minute we open our mouths we open ourselves up to criticism, judgement and being misinterpreted and misunderstood. All of these will stop us from talking freely if we have been exposed to these reactions regularly. There are surprising amounts of people who are afraid to talk.
There is a lot going on in your head and perhaps some help in learning to manage which thoughts are important and which are not helpful could help.
A lot of people with autism have trouble with eye contact too, you say you find it easier to talk when looking at something else. Is eye contact something you struggle with?