[here today]

I agree with unaluna in another thread that the link below originally posted by Skies might be a good topic for its own thread:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3330499/

Lots of interesting stuff here, I think. One thing I liked was the discussion of ego deficits and defenses. I believe that's been a factor in my case, but I think it needs a social environment for "repair". Understanding helps, but for me doesn't "heal".

[Argonautomobile]

I wonder if spending so much time reading this type of **** is, itself, a kind of reenactment.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Argonautomobile

I wonder if spending so much time reading this type of **** is, itself, a kind of reenactment.

Very interesting point of view!! Would you be willing to explain some more about how you it?

[Argonautomobile]

Originally Posted by here today

Very interesting point of view!! Would you be willing to explain some more about how you it?

I (and I don't think I'm the only one, either) seem to spend an awful lot of time reading about therapy for trauma. Or trauma in therapy. Or any number of topics that have to do with the intersection of psychotherapy and trauma.

Even when I don't actively seek out this information (and I've done plenty of that), I find myself drawn to it. I mean, I clicked on this link and read this article, right?

At a certain point it feels sort of like re-infecting oneself with familiar negative emotions and experiences. Revisiting the same thing again, and again, and again, without getting anywhere. Like running on a treadmill.

Isn't that a kind of reenactment? It doesn't seem very healthy

Sort of depressing. Not your fault, though. The article was interesting.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Argonautomobile

. . .
At a certain point it feels sort of like re-infecting oneself with familiar negative emotions and experiences. Revisiting the same thing again, and again, and again, without getting anywhere. Like running on a treadmill. . .

Or picking at a scab. Yeah.

But, for me, the "infection" inside remained. The scab didn't heal into healthy skin. Therapy seemed to offer "promise" which it didn't fulfill. I have the "ideal" out there of me as a healthy person, but it doesn't "happen". "Faking till I make it" just made me fake. I don't like that "infection" inside of me. I can cut it off, or pretend it isn't there, but still it is.

Maybe going to therapy, reading these kinds of articles, reinforces the notion of me as defective, as if by examining the situation I can get "better"? But still, to many people, I AM defective.

What would help that situation, in my view, is a healthy (social) environment. Maybe like people with TB went to supposedly "healthy places" before antibiotics. But day programs haven't helped me much either. Maybe they're not that "healthy" for everybody?

What's the psychological equivalent of an antibiotic? All the scab-picking and then examining the exposed, underlying, inflamed tissue has resulted in some objective knowledge, I think. Certainly at a price. And, I think the article points to some things that could become part of some objective (collective) knowledge about psychology. Someday, maybe, we're not there yet. But giving up doesn't seem like such a good idea. Though if what I'm doing currently isn't working, giving up might be an option.

[Ididitmyway]

Argo and here today, you both have a point. I just feel I can relate to both visions because they both have been my experience.

On one hand, yes, I used to get automatically drawn to those types of articles because I felt that any information related to my trauma would give me additional insight that would help me in my healing..never ending healing.

Then, at some point, I realized that the problem with all that info is that it's purely intellectual and that most of the insights come as a result of perpetual mental exercises, as oppose to inner knowing that comes from within, from being fully present, fully being here and now and being completely engaged with life at each given moment. And one thing I know about trauma is that it makes many traumatized individuals get stuck in their heads and become ungrounded. It has been my problem for decades and it still is to a large extent but I am aware of it and actively working to change that.

Eventually I found it more helpful to push myself into directly engaging with life in a meaningful way as much as I can through all kinds of activities that make me feel fresher and more alive than to spend hours contemplating intellectually about causes and dynamics of my trauma. A brisk nature walk makes me feel healthier whereas reading yet another article on trauma reinforces the idea on the back of my mind that I am sick.

That's not to say that all that information isn't helpful and that people should never read it. Of course, not. But, I think, balance is crucial here, just like it's crucial everywhere. I think, it's important to keep in mind that there is a certain point in trying to learn more and more beyond which the learning turns into an addiction and becomes unhealthy. I found it most helpful to process this kind of information after spending much time doing things I enjoy that bring me closer to earth and makes me feel healthier and alive. This allows me to read while being in the clearest state of mind possible that can easily separate the weeds from the chaff. When that happens, all information goes through my natural body filter that gives me signals about what is real and what is, excuse me my French, intellectual masturbation. Because it's the body who really knows not the mind. The mind is a trickster and should be watched at all times. It's useful when you need to come with practical daily solutions, but it's not equipped to advise us on big things that have to do with how we live our lives. Anyway, that's what my life lessons have been...

[Argonautomobile]

I think you both have very good points. Here Today, the importance of a healthy (social) environment cannot be overstated. I think therapy can help with a wide variety of issues in many ways. I've personally found it helpful. But it's a poor substitute for total environment. The TB analogy was interesting. Thanks for that.

Ididitmyway, I think you have excellent points about mental exercises vs inner knowing, I just wish I knew what the **** the latter was.

When I'm feeling particularly maudlin and sorry for myself, I remember that quote from the Vonnegut book about how the book is small and jumbled and stupid because there is nothing intelligent to say about a massacre. Maybe there's nothing intelligent to say about any other kind of trauma and that's why reading about it feels like intellectual masturbation.

Your first post made me laugh.

I think what you are talking about is intellectualizing. It can keep you stuck, for sure, when used as a defense mechanism to avoid pain or dealing with things, but it's also not exclusive to psychology material. So i suppose re-enactments and intellectualizing could have something in common-keeping one stuck.

Intellectualizing was something i used to do a lot, not so much anymore. At the time, it served a purpose of protection for me. It's one of the more healthy defense mechanisms, so I'd say intellectualizing away is al ot better than acting out (drugs, unprotected sex, ect) reaction formations, dissociation, etc. Plus you learn something out of it to, so it's a productive defense.

Now, i think i use intellectualization around the holidays and in times of distress. I am much more of a 'feeling' type person, so it is just a small component of behavior.

Originally Posted by Argonautomobile

I (and I don't think I'm the only one, either) seem to spend an awful lot of time reading about therapy for trauma. Or trauma in therapy. Or any number of topics that have to do with the intersection of psychotherapy and trauma.

Even when I don't actively seek out this information (and I've done plenty of that), I find myself drawn to it. I mean, I clicked on this link and read this article, right?

At a certain point it feels sort of like re-infecting oneself with familiar negative emotions and experiences. Revisiting the same thing again, and again, and again, without getting anywhere. Like running on a treadmill.

Isn't that a kind of reenactment? It doesn't seem very healthy

Sort of depressing. Not your fault, though. The article was interesting.

Then, at some point, I realized that the problem with all that info is that it's purely intellectual and that most of the insights come as a result of perpetual mental exercises, as oppose to inner knowing that comes from within, from being fully present, fully being here and now and being completely engaged with life at each given moment.

For me, it's not so black and white as I can have both. I can be engaged and grounded and in my body for some of the time and still satisfy my curiosity for knowledge and learning at other times. And those 2 poles can be dynamic or even multiplicative Intellectual knowledge can help get me to that 'knowing' state, and that 'knowing state' helps me get to a place where i can use intellectualizatoin to better myself, to learn a new hobby, express myself, engage in a career, or simply satisfy my curiousity.

I think the article is meant for therapists though, to help identify patterns in clients to help them get unstuck and be safer, rather than for clients to intellectualize about the theories.

[stopdog]

I do think it should be pointed out that the therapist is part of it. Sometimes they are acting like others the client has dealt with. It is not always the client who is at fault.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I do think it should be pointed out that the therapist is part of it. Sometimes they are acting like others the client has dealt with. It is not always the client who is at fault.

The "in therapy" has been added by the OP of the thread. The original article referred to reenactments in life. I posit that a t acting like others a client has dealt with is often intentional.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I do think it should be pointed out that the therapist is part of it. Sometimes they are acting like others the client has dealt with. It is not always the client who is at fault.

I think that happens more often than not, too. It's a common pitfall in dynamic therapy. I just had a HUGE rupture with my therapist about this, insisting he had a role in it. Things finally did settle, he is much better now. He only admitted a small part of it, but he did change afterwards. I am thankful he tries to figure things out; he told me not too long ago that he was reading a book on reenactments.

They do use a very broad definition of re-enactment in this article, and I don't really agree with their definition, but still thought the information was useful. The object relations type psychodynamic therapy seems to be continual re-enactments (transference re-enactments?), and some therapists look at it that way too.

I have considered careers that would fulfill a big re-enactment as described in the article, but never did pursue them.

It also happens a lot that people choose partners who are like their parents, especially unavailable ones. It seems so common.

There is one really dysfunctional one pointed out in that article, the maladaptive one, that can cause a lot of harm and self-destruction.

[here today]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I do think it should be pointed out that the therapist is part of it. Sometimes they are acting like others the client has dealt with. It is not always the client who is at fault.

Like a folie a deaux. Except (horror of helpless horrors) the client is paying for it.

And I, for one, am still sleep-walking in the delusion! Arghh!

Well, no, I've quit therapy, but here I am still therap-izing myself. Sooner or later, guys, I'm going to tell you all good-bye? But for right now, I'm grateful to have the chance to vent and get your input.

Originally Posted by unaluna

The "in therapy" has been added by the OP of the thread. The original article referred to reenactments in life. I posit that a t acting like others a client has dealt with is often intentional.

Give us examples!

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Skies

Give us examples!

I believe i wrote quite extensively on this subject in the past, as i worked out family holiday obligations in the transference. That sounds like a good title for a paper, dunnit? Fifty Shades of Gelt

Originally Posted by unaluna

The "in therapy" has been added by the OP of the thread. The original article referred to reenactments in life. I posit that a t acting like others a client has dealt with is often intentional.

Oh yeah, that's why it's missing. Was confused too until you pointed that out. Usually the online books talk about the therapists role in keeping it alive too, but also sometimes observing the client trying to re-enact and discussing it to help stop the pattern.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Skies

Oh yeah, that's why it's missing. Was confused too until you pointed that out. Usually the online books talk about the therapists role in keeping it alive too, but also sometimes observing the client trying to re-enact and discussing it to help stop the pattern.

Sorry for misleading anybody. The article was referenced originally with what seemed to me to be the suggestion that somebody was re-enacting some early life experience in her therapies.

Which struck a nerve with me because I believe that I have, too. But when therapists acted like people in my early life, in no way has it ever been intentional, or "designed" to help me, that I can tell. Nor did they call me on anything. Gee golly whiz! I'm THAT good! But, if so, it definitely wasn't conscious.

You didn't do anything. Well a lot of it already applies to therapy. I don't think it matters, but that explains with the therapist part is missing from the article.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Skies

You didn't do anything. Well a lot of it already applies to therapy. I don't think it matters, but that explains with the therapist part is missing from the article.

Huh? I'm confused. I posted the same link you did. Was something missing from that article that you had seen before?

But -- I still think the concept of reenactments -- wherever! -- is interesting. :-)