In Session Today : Part III

Sorry. That sucks.

A couple of thoughts (and if my replies to your posts bother you, let me know and i'll stop)...
I am not sure if it is co-dependency on MC part, but something seems not quite right with all of the out of session contact he provides solely for you--and most of the time it isn't about your marriage. Has any of this changed since his wife died, or do you think he's always provided this amount of extra time?

Also, in terms of your T's boundaries around emails; it seems she has pretty strict boundaries, and she probably was concerned your emails would always be lengthy and your expectation of her responses may increase, and even if she doesn't have many clients emailing her...it would still give more time to you? I don't know, but I just think she is strict about these sort of things. She has always seem to have been there for you through any sort of crisis, though.

What felt pointless about it?

Your comments are fine--they make me think! It's not like you're attacking me (or T or MC). If I feel like you are, then I'll say something.

He seems to generally provide the outside contact connected to the transference stuff, though it's also been, say, if I've been upset by something he said or how he was acting during session. I intentionally try to keep marriage-related stuff out of outside contact and inside session. I think he's trying to help me with the transference as best he can while sort of being within the bounds of marriage counseling (as in, he won't allow any individual sessions beyond the two I had initially to deal with the transference...yet we've had phone calls bordering on session length).

Since his wife died, I do feel like his e-mail responses have been a bit longer (used to be a sentence or two, now more like a paragraph or two at times) or more frequent (he often didn't respond before) or at odder times--like a couple have been at midnight or 1 a.m. But I also figured that either he was having trouble sleeping as a result of the loss, so did work stuff, or else just doesn't have as strict of a schedule now. I don't feel like there has been any sort of inappropriate content on his part, if that's what you're wondering about.

The thing is, in some ways she does have strict boundaries, like around session time and stuff like that (though I've managed to get her to go a few minutes over--MC, meanwhile, will often go 10-15 minutes over). She has been there for me in a few crisis situations, which I've appreciated. It's just confusing when she chooses to respond to e-mails sometimes--like she'll respond to one that's lighter, but then not respond to one where I'm upset about something (even just to say "let's address this in session," for example).

I still think part of my issue with her regarding that is how she didn't come out and tell me that the e-mail length/frequency was bothering her--it was only after I got upset with her for not responding to a particular one where I was really struggling. Since then, I've gradually gone back to e-mailing her at times, and she does tend to respond now--but I don't know what the limits are, and I find that to be difficult. I tend to put "short e-mail" or something like that in the title. But I keep worrying I'll overdo it, and that she wouldn't say anything until she was really frustrated (yeah, there's some negative maternal transference at play here...) I mean, her whole comment about equal time made me feel like I couldn't reach out to her about the stuff with MC I was upset about tonight--like I should save that text/e-mail opportunity for the next week or so when he's away.

That was intense. I began by admitting to R that I have been a bit of a mess. She simply said ‘I’m sorry to hear that’, and I then explained about Moana and Spirit. When it came to talking about what happened, I could hardly say the word, and she said:

‘Did you cry?’
I told her that I had, and then about the experience outside the Co-Op. She told me that she was pleased when I said that I had cried, and released some of that emotion. I asked her where we left off, and she thought we were approaching January 2011, which would explain the flashbacks.
I began to talk about January 2011, starting with Kim’s New Year message, and we had a conversation about nuance and my sense that Kim was not planning on seeing it out. I then began to talk about not hearing from her for a while.
After that, I told R about Lynn’s email, or tried to. I thought I could handle it, so I began quoting the message.
‘I didn’t want to have to tell you this, but...’ ‘I didn’t want to have to tell you this, but.’
I felt weird about it, but I then asked R ‘Can I grab your hand?’
‘Of course.’ I put my left hand in hers, and continued talking. ‘I didn’t want to have to tell you this, but Kim passed away last weekend.’ R covered my hand with her free hand, and squeezed. ‘I’m here.’

I went off on something of a rant about how the first sentence would have been enough. R has always said that the issue is with the fact that I can’t ‘unknow’ the information that was shared with me, so I relive it every night. I berated myself for being unable to access emotions, but R told me that she could feel today that I wasn’t trying to hold it together.

So she was secretly resentful of your e-mails? What was her response to you being upset she didn't respond that one time? Are you inferring she was annoyed, but maybe that isn't the actual truth? (I don't remember hearing about this)

Today's session wasn't as intense as they have been recently, which is nice. I have a tendency to disconnect from my emotions when I'm ill, which probably aided in that, because we talked about some pretty deep stuff.

Started with how this year at work is going to be miserable. He said my schedule did sound difficult.

Then I was like, "but what I really want to talk about is the conversation I had last night with H."

So the session was incredibly awkward, and even RoboT acknowledged that he was mildly uncomfortable (because of how uncomfortable I was). He said at one point that I might benefit from practicing yoga, as it's helpful for people who have been abused to feel more connected to their body.

At one point I was talking about how the relationship between H and I has improved recently. And I realized that it's improving because of changes that I'm making.

This part of the conversation stood out to me because RoboT looked genuinely happy for me. It was nice.

Most of the session felt like I was talking about sex with my dad. I even said "eww" at a few points, which made him laugh.

He said I did a good job in session twice. Maybe because I allowed myself to sit in the discomfort.

Weird session with current T tonight.

It was going mostly okay until we neared the end.

I told her about my going on a road trip to CA and she had some weird responses.

First, she jokingly said it's possible that she's having some maternal counter-transference but she's worried about my doing it.

I thought she was mostly joking and so, didn't take her seriously -- I just said that's sweet and moved on.

She then asked what am I fleeing from and I was like "Really, lady, is there any one specific thing?".

Then I think time was up and as she took out her receipt book, she said that she was wondering if I was trying to make her worry about me or have anxiety about me because my parents hadn't cared about me? And, given how worried I am about my Mom's health, she wondered if I was trying to shift that anxiety on to her by making her worry about me?

I told her then that I didn't really think she'd get worried (I really hadn't) because I thought road trips were quintessentially American (I quoted Jack Kerouac) -- it's honestly, one of the things that I absolutely love about the US (the highway system). She said it's not normal for a single woman to go across the country by herself and that she'd really worry about my physical safety.

End result -- I'm touched (that she could be worried about me and that too too to this extent rather than a generic "Take care" kinda thing) and super pissed that she could lay it all on me and somehow blame me for her feelings (blame is a strong word but for lack of a better one).

Is be pissed that she accused you of trying to make her feel things too, awk. It sounds a bit like part of my recent rupture with my my therapist. The therapists' feelings are on them, and not our responsibility.

Nothing wrong with a single woman driving cross country alone. I did it (well partially) back in 1986, drove from St Louis, MO to the north rim of the Grand Canyon. Twas a fer bit, but a great experience!

I think I'm now convinced of something I've always only suspected -- current T and I not only inhabit different worlds but also different eras.

Sigh.

I dunno...last time I did it less than two years ago I got a lot of "by yourself?" reactions from other people. It was definitely gendered too.

I actually think current t has the more common attitude, even today.

When I was younger I went for 3 weeks to Vancouver to meet a friend I had made online. My therapist at the time had the same response. I think it just demonstrates that sexism is alive and well.

So..I really don't know how I feel about my session tonight. C leaves me in silence a lot, which I don't like. I didn't really feel any sort of connection tonight either. I did cry. silently, behind my hand, but I definitely cried. He didn't acknowledge it, which I appreciated - I prefer everyone act like it's not happening.

We talked about what I would want from S if I contacted him right now. I said "to know that he's here. That he's still here for me." And, this is the one point where C really spoke, and I knew he at least understood - even if we weren't connecting. He said "You want to know that he's still there, that he still cares about you, that he still thinks about you, that he isn't gone and isn't going anywhere, that you'll see him again." I just nodded, because, yes. All of that.

We wound up talking about what I would want with S now -- talking about how I want a friendship -- how I just want it to not be so emotionally charged, but how I know that he can never "unknow" everything about me, which means we will always be on different level playing fields really. Talked about how I didn't get termination sessions and why - and I finally admitted that I was upset that his other clients got them and that I feel that I didn't because I was "bad" and they were "good." I told him about kicking the wall, banging my head, throwing an empty milk carton... he still doesn't think it warrants not getting termination sessions, but it doesn't matter. This is a really big deal for me: I didn't get closure, I didn't get termination sessions, and S blamed me for it - I feel I was bad. And, meanwhile, his other clients got their closure. (I'm sure that's not wholly true - that others were hurt too, but this is what's in my head.)

Honestly, this session just... I guess the one thing I wanted to hear that I didn't was that he was sorry I was in pain, that he cared and was there. But, he did not say anything comforting or connecting whatsoever - even when I asked him what he was thinking. He was stonefaced the whole time.

So, tonight, I come away not sure I should be seeing him. Scared to terminate with J, because J had empathy. Considering texting him, or emailing? And telling him that I felt he was stonefaced and, while I don't expect overt comfort, C has told me that he wants to be a person of comfort to me... and I didn't get that at all from tonight. I felt very alone with my pain.

I'm seeing him Friday, because I just can't wait until next Friday. I'm having too hard of a week.

Session went well.

I said I wanted to talk about my familial (parental, sibling) and erotic transferences towards her.

But first she wanted to talk about my homework of trying to listen to my partner make valid criticisms of my parents.

Then we talked about she'd like me to be assertive towards my father, even if it escalates things, rather than taking his criticism and blaming myself. She said several times that my father is "toxic".

Then we circled back to how I need to acknowledge, without minimising that the parents have hurt me, let me down.

It was difficult starting to talk about transference. I'd written down increasingly vulnerable thoughts I had been having for a long time outside session into my notebook. Now was the time to read them aloud, but the vulnerability made me afraid.

I eventually did start and shed some tears as I read the increasingly vulnerable phrases. Especially when I said I know she cares about me but she doesn't love me (in parental or romantic ways). Wishing I made an impact on her, that she won't forget me, that I will have a place in her heart. Me being just a client out of 40+ and not loved by her like how she loves the people in her real life.

We talked about what do I truly desire which is being brought up by therapy? Hoe it's not truly her even though it feels like it, but a reflection of what I long for in my life. Desires to be loved and to matter by parent(s), older sister. Therapist feeling safer than my partner because I sometimes am in a child headspace needing safe parental comfort while partner wants sex. How even if my parents miraculously changed, I'd still have the many years of them not caring for me, not loving me, which would colour things.

She said these things are very sad and it must hurt for me. I wanted to know if she could understand the pain, if she'd been through the same pain, so I asked her "have you ever felt your parents didn't love you?" She wanted to know why I felt she had to have experienced the same pain in order to understand. I said I didn't want just an intellectual understanding, but an emotional one as well. She said she does not have the same pain, but she has had felt different pains, some of which are quite big, as big as the pain I felt maybe. I pointed out that I had never said she didn't have pains of her own, and never said those pains didn't mean anything. Asked her again if she ever felt her parents didn't love her. She said she always knew they loved her, even when there were issues, disagreements etc. She said that she understood my pain because we've spent many hours talking about the pain of my parents not loving me, she has seen the pain I carry as I express the hurt. That she feels some (like a quarter, she said?) of what I feel. That she's not a robot (I've stated that sometimes I feel she's a robot because of how unaffected she comes across...) She said she has felt angry and frustrated with my parents about their poor treatment of me. That I didn't deserve the pain. I felt better and said I'm glad she can "at least imagine the pain".

I cried more about how she cares about me as a client but doesn't love me like a parent. That I'm an adult now, top old to be adopted by anyone, no one would want to love me as a parent. I am too old, too damaged, too broken. Unworthy. Even my partner's unofficial step father doesn't want to adopt him as an adult.

I said I know she dislikes it whenever I bring up "You only care because it's your job." but I grew up with a series of hired caretakers who made it clear caring for me was just a job, that they didn't love me. They loved their own children, and other people in their real life.

Like my therapist loving the people in her real life but caring for clients because it's her job to care. Caring for me because I'm a client, not because I'm truly worthy of care. Caring about me but not loving me because I'm just part of her job and unlovable. She brought up that she does take on a caring and guiding "parental role" in our therapy (as "limited reparenting" is the heart of schema therapy). I brought up the similarities to how I grew up: She cares because of her job, not because I'm worthy of care. She cares but doesn't love me like a parent. She said she can't do her work without caring for each client as persons.

Growing up knowing I am difficult to care for, difficult to be around, difficult to raise, difficult...because I've been told that many times from parents, sister, adults in my life. She said "everyone is difficult, because everyone is different". I said I want to know if she will still care when I am being difficult, that I fear I scare her. That I've heard stories of therapists being unable to handle client transference well. She said "it'd take a lot more for you to scare me away".

She kept emphasising that transference feelings are a reflection of my unmet needs in life - familial love because my family of origin isn't caring or loving, romantic love because of issues with my partner. That she's just a stand-in on what I seek to have from real people in my life.

I said intellectually I know that, hence me bringing it up last session and starting the discussion today using the word "transference". We talked about working through transference, linking it back to what I need and desire in my real life relationships. She said I am insightful and thanked me for my courage in bringing up and discussing transference.

She said transference isn't common. I said according to what I've researched, it actually is, especially when people have abuse histories. She disagreed and said "just because one has been abused, doesn't necessarily mean one will inevitably experience transference". Agree to disagree I guess?

She circled back to how I'm going to stay stuck if I don't acknowledge and accept without minimising things, that my parents have hurt me and let me down. That I have to be willing to express anger towards them in sessions. That she's safer for me to get angry with, but I need to take a step back and realize my anger is really towards my parents and not her. I told her I know that, yet I get angry with her because I'm angry she cares more than my family. I told her sometimes I am indeed angry at her because "Why do you care?"

We talked about my trust in her, that she is safe, that the therapy relationship will continue even if I say angry things and hurtful things. I told her I didn't take that for granted and I do fear she'd discharge me.

We talked about doing self care because one deserves it, rather than the mindset I have of "I must self care / self love because no one else wants to care for me or love me". That I'm not a robot like I see myself. She pointed out that I have progressed to being able to feel sad and frustrated about not having care in my life, when initially I simply accepted lack of care as a fact in my life.

She said that if symptom relief was our only goal, she could have discharged me long ago. (I regularly tell her that she should just discharge me as my symptoms are well controlled and I am high functioning so who cares about my inner pain) I agreed and said knowing that she wanted to do deeper work on the underlying issues, enduring personality change rather than mere symptom relief is one of the main reasons I continue to work with her.

We were at 1 hour 40 minutes, 40 minutes overtime. She said she'd charge the longer "psychological therapy (complex)" session code (almost double the cost) rather than the usual "standard" (1 hour) psychotherapy code. I hugged her. She said she was glad I got today off work.

I asked her if we could talk further about transference if warranted, I might want to continue talking about it next session, could transference be an open topic for discussion? She said of course it can, especially as its hindering therapy (last session, i had said we needed to discuss transference due to that). I told her I don't think transference is the problem, but my self disgust and shame over having transference. Because it's me feeling bad over having transference that's hindering therapy, not transference itself. She agreed.

She didn't take away my 12 Sept appointment (in 2 weeks as originally agreed), and she booked me in for another appointment 2 weeks after that, because otherwise I'd have to wait a month again due to her large caseload again. I asked what did I do to deserve the slot in advance, is it because I work hard? (Because for almost a year I saw her just once a month due to her caseload and she adopted a "first come, first serve" approach towards scheduling patients.) She said its because I "just deserve it".

I hugged her again and bid her goodbye.

Well done, QM. What an amazing session... You were so brave.

Wow QM. That's really moving. It's so great that you are so open and honest with your T and you could have these discussions.

It's really helpful to me actually, to read about your T's description of your anger being "transference" in the sense that you are not able to express anger towards your parents. I think my T said a similar thing to me, but not so clearly. This helps me to understand it better.

I totally get what you say about being angry with T because they care more than the family and that makes you angry. I think I feel that way too.

I opened up the can of worms that is erotic transference. At the start I mentioned previously that before I went home- I would cry that I wanted my mother to comfort me when I was upset- but that I now wanted him to comfort me. That I didn't feel like I could go to my parents for any sort of emotional support and that I only had my younger brother to lean who was struggling as well. That I wanted more than he could give me. That I wanted to still feel connected to him over the weekends. He mentioned did I want something more physical?

I denied it. Then again when we were talking about self harm.



He commented the word dirty had sexual connotations.

I said I felt dirty because I wanted him so badly.

"in a sexual way? "

I denied it because I honestly just wanted him to comfort me like a child.

Before our session ended he said that I didn't need to feel embarrassed or ashamed of saying anything and that we had time to discuss things.

But if I'm being honest- I always found him attractive from the start. He is around 10 years older than me, but I still saw him mainly as a father figure. I started having sexual thoughts about him which started pretty much since he went away. Thinking about him in this way made me feel dirty and I was cutting more because it felt wrong to think of him this way and I felt like I needed to be punished.

I bullet pointed the above and messaged it to him mentioning notes for our next session and that I didn't want an acknowledgement. It was a very hard message to write, even admitting it was difficult- but I'm glad I sent it. I know I'm not in love with him. I could have denied it for another 6-7 sessions but what would be the point? I'd still feel awkward regardless. I just hope it doesn't make him feel uncomfortable- but I doubt that I would be the first girl to feel this way. He's just the first man that I actually feel safe with who hasn't abused me and only shown me kindness.

So just waiting till our next session on thursday.

((Lemoncake)) looks like QM isn't the only one being brave.

Lemoncake, that is so, so, brave of you. I, too, have regularly cut myself to punish myself for my ET, for thinking of T in erotic ways though most of my transference is parental.

Good luck for your next session <3

Thank you both for the replies I just needed to get it out.

<3