I am not sure what I need from posting but I just need to express my feelings.
I woke up this morning and had terrible negative transference towards my t.
I think I am starting to realise slowly what has been happening between t and I.
I am ready to acknowledge that what has happened is not normal or productive and that t has crossed my boundaries and been very unethical.
I swung from denying to acknowledging. To wanting to run away to cant do without her. These feelings terrify me. I don’t ever want to go back to her again. You can’t unlearn what you have learned, t hasn’t changed but I have.
I have this gut feeling all day that t is evil and wicked and I don’t know why.

[unaluna]

Why are you afraid of your feelings? They are just feelings. You dont have to act on them. Are they feelings of attraction? We dont have to act on every feeling of attraction. We CAN feel soothed by them, however; we can enjoy them, why not? Plus, i think the more you fight feelings, the more they fight back! Accept and LISTEN to what your feelings are saying. SIT with them.

[Elio]

Quick

I guess you have to try to figure out if this is about you and your T or about someone else/something else from your past. What does the "wise one" say inside you? From what you have posted here, you know many of us are unhappy with how this T leaves you feeling. We are not there with you, so we don't see the full picture. Only you do.

It is your therapy, you'll have to determine if it is going in the path/direction you want it to go in and if not, how are you going to deal with it.

As an aside, even with my T, I have small bursts of negative transference of hating her. Sometimes they will come out of no where - completely, I'll be walking and thinking about something we've done or just of her with warmth and love, then the thought of "I hate you" will pop in. So it is possible even in good working relationships that these types of thoughts occur.

[satsuma]

Hi Monalisa. It's good to see you posting and I hope you're doing ok.

I think it's very good and constructive that you're coming to this realisation, even though it's a very difficult thing because you have been very attached to this T.

I really wish there was someone to help you with all of this because it seems quite complicated. I know people say it seems ridiculous to need therapy to talk about therapy (and it wouldn't be necessary in this case if the T had been helpful ... but you already know that), anyway I do wish you could find a really competent and well trained T who could help you with sorting through your feelings and extricating yourself from this unhelpful relationship as and when you feel ready.

Those are just my thoughts but I don't want to be bossy and hope it didn't come across that way. I hope you are ok, anyway.

Originally Posted by unaluna

Why are you afraid of your feelings? They are just feelings. You dont have to act on them. Are they feelings of attraction? We dont have to act on every feeling of attraction. We CAN feel soothed by them, however; we can enjoy them, why not? Plus, i think the more you fight feelings, the more they fight back! Accept and LISTEN to what your feelings are saying. SIT with them.

I really needed to hear that.
I forget sometimes that I don’t need to act on them just now!
My feelings are saying “No, this is all wrong”. I can’t accept them sometimes but now I can’t ignore them.
They are feelings of attraction and since my dream they have been really confusing and I feel like I am going crazy.
I just need to calm myself- thank you Unaluna

Originally Posted by Elio

Quick


I guess you have to try to figure out if this is about you and your T or about someone else/something else from your past. What does the "wise one" say inside you? From what you have posted here, you know many of us are unhappy with how this T leaves you feeling. We are not there with you, so we don't see the full picture. Only you do.


It is your therapy, you'll have to determine if it is going in the path/direction you want it to go in and if not, how are you going to deal with it.


As an aside, even with my T, I have small bursts of negative transference of hating her. Sometimes they will come out of no where - completely, I'll be walking and thinking about something we've done or just of her with warmth and love, then the thought of "I hate you" will pop in. So it is possible even in good working relationships that these types of thoughts occur.

Thank you Elio for telling me that this happens with your t too. These feelings are not coming from nowhere though. Things have lead up to this negative transference for a long time.
Just before Christmas I gave t a gift and I know logically she can’t give me a gift back and it didn’t bother me but then I heard that she gave someone else in the Centre where I work a really lovely gift and it made me really angry.
There have been lots of little things building up.
The dream, the gift, the abuse and misuse of power. Sometimes it’s too much!

Originally Posted by satsuma

Hi Monalisa. It's good to see you posting and I hope you're doing ok.


I think it's very good and constructive that you're coming to this realisation, even though it's a very difficult thing because you have been very attached to this T.


I really wish there was someone to help you with all of this because it seems quite complicated. I know people say it seems ridiculous to need therapy to talk about therapy (and it wouldn't be necessary in this case if the T had been helpful ... but you already know that), anyway I do wish you could find a really competent and well trained T who could help you with sorting through your feelings and extricating yourself from this unhelpful relationship as and when you feel ready.


Those are just my thoughts but I don't want to be bossy and hope it didn't come across that way. I hope you are ok, anyway.

Thank you Satsuma,
You don’t come across as bossy at all.
I really appreciated your post.
I have looked for other ts and recently a supervisor was very concerned and wanted to support me to leave her but I couldn’t.
My supervisor said my t was retraumatising me as many have said here before. I guess I am beginning to grieve our relationship before I prepare to let it go. It will be hard because I am so attached, weekly therapy for four years.
It has been hard to find another t and will be harder for me to trust one.
Thanks again

Have you considered that perhaps the negative feelings are not transference but a normal, healthy reaction to what she does?

[here today]

I became aware of what I thought was a negative transference to my last T about 4.5 years into a 6 year therapy. I told her early on, when I became aware of the feeling, "I don't like you. I mean, I like you fine, but I just have this feeling." And she said something like "I guess I sort of expect you not to like me sometimes."

But it got worse and worse, and the more I realized/thought I saw what she was like "inside" the worse it got.

So I know the "evil and wicked" feelings, about my last T -- and now also about my mother and grandmother and aunts, and myself.

I think the feelings are most terrifying when we have to hide them. When we "need" the other people. Or when we can't accept them in ourselves, too. If/when the people in my early life "saw" how I was feeling about them, then they would be more rejecting, "evil", etc.

If I don't need my last T, then if she is a shaming, blaming, rejecting faker, as I put it awhile ago, that won't matter that much to me. Can't hurt me if I don't "need" her.

But similarly, if she didn't in some sense "need" my approval or idealization of her, then if I thought she a was an evil shaming, blaming, rejecting, faker, then that I don't see how that would matter to HER, either.

[ElectricManatee]

I don't know if this will be helpful, but I want to tell you about the thing that kept me going back to my mom for years. I would think, "Well, she isn't that bad. In fact, sometimes she can be really nice. And if I leave, who will [sometimes, inconsistently] be there for me? Plus, I would feel really guilty for walking away when I know she wants me around."

The greatest gift I have gotten from therapy is learning to trust my feelings and to use them as data to guide my decision-making process. So I ask myself: does this person generally make me feel good or bad? If the answer is bad, over and over, then I feel like I can start to move away. If moving away makes me feel a little less bad overall, then I keep doing it. Then I shift the time and energy I would have spent on my mom toward people who make me generally feel pretty good (or at least who don't make me feel bad/upset). This helps keep me from spending a lot of time worrying that the other person (my mom) isn't really bad enough to justify me leaving them. It's more about my feelings and getting what I need.

I also think you won't feel very connected to a new T right away, and that's completely okay. Sometimes being used to intense, close relationships that aren't always very healthy means that new, healthier relationships feel uncomfortable and not nearly as good. I took a long time to really feel a connection with my kind, boundaried T, but now I'm glad I worked so hard to trust her and get there with her.

[Out There]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

Have you considered that perhaps the negative feelings are not transference but a normal, healthy reaction to what she does?

This. You are getting many " warnings " I think Mona from your gut feelings to your dreams to feedback from others that this isn't OK. And if it's becoming conscious now then the seed of doubt planted in your unconscious is beginning to grow. So nurture the growing part of you with what you need.

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

Have you considered that perhaps the negative feelings are not transference but a normal, healthy reaction to what she does?

I still blame myself and my feelings- I guess it’s the little girl in me who can’t comprehend that this could be my ts fault

[cinnamon_roll]

Hi Mona,

I've just had a hellova ride in the negative-transference-rollercoaster. Not my idea of fun, to be honest. The end was: I decided to stop seeing my therapist.

The problem was not so much the neg. transference. The real problem was trying to talk to T about it and the underlying issues. Because for some reason or other, she would take it personally and would take it out on me. Guilt-trip me for those negative feelings etc.

This lasted about six months. In the end I realized that this is about being true to myself. That I cannot continue to adjust to her expectations of what should be an "adequate" response to her efforts. There were some elements of gaslighting, I felt manipulated. I didn't know any longer, what I could count on and what not. It came down to: It's either me or her. So even though it was immensely difficult, I just knew that I had to take sides with me and my gutfeelings. And left.

Since then, looking through my personal notes from most sessions, I came to realize that those negative feelings were mostly justified. There was a lot of blame, and accusations coming from her side. Part of the mix was (my) transference, yes. But whenever I stood up to her, or told her that I didn't agree, she put it down to "resistance", me being unwilling to change, or take her interpretations into account. It took me quite a while to realize that her interpretations are just theories and speculation. She would bring them across as facts. And I believed her for a long time, even though it went across the grain on my insides...

At first we agreed that I would take a break for six weeks. During this break I realized that not having my weekly sessions was an immense relief. That I did not want to go back. So I wrote her a letter. Stating that I was leaving and explaining my reasons. That was a couple of months ago. Never heard back from her, which isn't a surprise really.

I guess, what I'm really trying to bring across is this: Please take into account that this "negative transference" might be more than this. That this might be your gut feeling trying to tell you something.

Much love, c_r

[Elio]

Originally Posted by cinnamon_roll

The problem was not so much the neg. transference. The real problem was trying to talk to T about it and the underlying issues. Because for some reason or other, she would take it personally and would take it out on me. Guilt-trip me for those negative feelings etc.

BTW - when I do bring my negative transference to my T, I'm almost always embarrassed that I am feeling it. She has always responded with curiosity as to where this is coming from for me and not in a "what has she done" kind of way; but in a "hey lets talk about these feelings and see what's there with them".

She also responds this way when I bring something up that could be a critic of her work. She will take ownership of her portion. She doesn't always apologize, she does always acknowledge my feelings and usual acknowledge what was missed on her part.

[cinnamon_roll]

Originally Posted by Elio

She has always responded with curiosity as to where this is coming from for me and not in a "what has she done" kind of way; but in a "hey lets talk about these feelings and see what's there with them".

She also responds this way when I bring something up that could be a critic of her work. She will take ownership of her portion. She doesn't always apologize, she does always acknowledge my feelings and usual acknowledge what was missed on her part.

I guess, this was what I was looking for when trying to talk to T about those feelings. I too was deeply embarrassed for having those feelings.
Ironically before those feelings came up we talked lots about my need for adjusting to (real or imagined) expecations of the 'other'. And my inability to acknowledge negative feelings, due to this fact, because I felt that this would be stepping "out of line".

So actually acknowledging those feelings was huge for me. Unfortunately my T wasn't able to handle this with the care that would have been necessary. I guess that I somehow got to close to her own personal issues with what was going on inside me...

Originally Posted by Out There

This. You are getting many " warnings " I think Mona from your gut feelings to your dreams to feedback from others that this isn't OK. And if it's becoming conscious now then the seed of doubt planted in your unconscious is beginning to grow. So nurture the growing part of you with what you need.

What a lovely way to put it Out there- thank you. This part of me is growing bigger and t herself always says I am very astute and intuitive. I have been trying to listen to my gut more, and is getting bigger( literally over Christmas)
I always doubt it because I have learned not to trust it but that can be changed and I can relearn to trust it.
I believe that t is in a very strange way teaching me to trust me gut.
I have called her cruel and untrustworthy over the last year and she has told me I am very easy to abuse, it’s really inappropriate now that I think about it.

Originally Posted by here today

I became aware of what I thought was a negative transference to my last T about 4.5 years into a 6 year therapy. I told her early on, when I became aware of the feeling, "I don't like you. I mean, I like you fine, but I just have this feeling." And she said something like "I guess I sort of expect you not to like me sometimes."


But it got worse and worse, and the more I realized/thought I saw what she was like "inside" the worse it got.


So I know the "evil and wicked" feelings, about my last T -- and now also about my mother and grandmother and aunts, and myself.


I think the feelings are most terrifying when we have to hide them. When we "need" the other people. Or when we can't accept them in ourselves, too. If/when the people in my early life "saw" how I was feeling about them, then they would be more rejecting, "evil", etc.


If I don't need my last T, then if she is a shaming, blaming, rejecting faker, as I put it awhile ago, that won't matter that much to me. Can't hurt me if I don't "need" her.


But similarly, if she didn't in some sense "need" my approval or idealization of her, then if I thought she a was an evil shaming, blaming, rejecting, faker, then that I don't see how that would matter to HER, either.

I recognise a lot of what you so articulately wrote there here today. I think a lot of it is tied to my mother and my ex partner who were both abusive and wicked.
I do project those onto my t but it doesn’t help that she can be cruel and wicked at times but when she isn’t I still accuse her of all sorts and then we try to establish where it’s coming from. I am sorry that you have been on this rollercoaster too with your t.
I have given up on my t before but the need to see her was greater than the urge to leave and now it’s the opposite.
I wish I didn’t need her but I do and at times that hurts and is confusing.
Did you manage to work this through with your own t?

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I don't know if this will be helpful, but I want to tell you about the thing that kept me going back to my mom for years. I would think, "Well, she isn't that bad. In fact, sometimes she can be really nice. And if I leave, who will [sometimes, inconsistently] be there for me? Plus, I would feel really guilty for walking away when I know she wants me around."


The greatest gift I have gotten from therapy is learning to trust my feelings and to use them as data to guide my decision-making process. So I ask myself: does this person generally make me feel good or bad? If the answer is bad, over and over, then I feel like I can start to move away. If moving away makes me feel a little less bad overall, then I keep doing it. Then I shift the time and energy I would have spent on my mom toward people who make me generally feel pretty good (or at least who don't make me feel bad/upset). This helps keep me from spending a lot of time worrying that the other person (my mom) isn't really bad enough to justify me leaving them. It's more about my feelings and getting what I need.


I also think you won't feel very connected to a new T right away, and that's completely okay. Sometimes being used to intense, close relationships that aren't always very healthy means that new, healthier relationships feel uncomfortable and not nearly as good. I took a long time to really feel a connection with my kind, boundaried T, but now I'm glad I worked so hard to trust her and get there with her.

Thank you EM,
That was very helpful to distinguish feelings and instincts. I have a lot of trouble with feelings and still react a lot, especially to the negative and the attachment feelings. Attachment feelings drive me mad because I ignore my gut and go with my heart.
I tried a few new ts and found one I connected with, wild haired t but she was too unreliable but very insightful. I really liked her. My attachment to her was very strong from the start and to this t. I think she is so different and strong, very assertive and all of the things I am not is why I am so attracted to her.
I am glad it worked out with your boundaries t, boundaries suck but they are so important, especially for me.

Originally Posted by cinnamon_roll

Hi Mona,

I've just had a hellova ride in the negative-transference-rollercoaster. Not my idea of fun, to be honest. The end was: I decided to stop seeing my therapist.

The problem was not so much the neg. transference. The real problem was trying to talk to T about it and the underlying issues. Because for some reason or other, she would take it personally and would take it out on me. Guilt-trip me for those negative feelings etc.

This lasted about six months. In the end I realized that this is about being true to myself. That I cannot continue to adjust to her expectations of what should be an "adequate" response to her efforts. There were some elements of gaslighting, I felt manipulated. I didn't know any longer, what I could count on and what not. It came down to: It's either me or her. So even though it was immensely difficult, I just knew that I had to take sides with me and my gutfeelings. And left.

Since then, looking through my personal notes from most sessions, I came to realize that those negative feelings were mostly justified. There was a lot of blame, and accusations coming from her side. Part of the mix was (my) transference, yes. But whenever I stood up to her, or told her that I didn't agree, she put it down to "resistance", me being unwilling to change, or take her interpretations into account. It took me quite a while to realize that her interpretations are just theories and speculation. She would bring them across as facts. And I believed her for a long time, even though it went across the grain on my insides...

At first we agreed that I would take a break for six weeks. During this break I realized that not having my weekly sessions was an immense relief. That I did not want to go back. So I wrote her a letter. Stating that I was leaving and explaining my reasons. That was a couple of months ago. Never heard back from her, which isn't a surprise really.

I guess, what I'm really trying to bring across is this: Please take into account that this "negative transference" might be more than this. That this might be your gut feeling trying to tell you something.

Much love, c_r

Wow, thank for sharing your experience C-r, that really gives me hope.
I really liked how you dealt with this situation with your t and really trusted your gut. It’s not easy to do but sounds like it paid off for you.
Did you expect a reply to your letter and do you need some closure with your t or are you ok with how it was left? I ask because my anxiety was tearing up reading this and my attachment.
Your t sounds very similar to mine, only the operate in different ways but the outcome is the same- gaslighting and manipulation.

Originally Posted by cinnamon_roll

I guess, this was what I was looking for when trying to talk to T about those feelings. I too was deeply embarrassed for having those feelings.
Ironically before those feelings came up we talked lots about my need for adjusting to (real or imagined) expecations of the 'other'. And my inability to acknowledge negative feelings, due to this fact, because I felt that this would be stepping "out of line".

So actually acknowledging those feelings was huge for me. Unfortunately my T wasn't able to handle this with the care that would have been necessary. I guess that I somehow got to close to her own personal issues with what was going on inside me...

This happens a lot with my t. She really had a go at me out of the blue one day. I sat there in shock, she did apologise afterwards and blamed counter transference but it wasn’t ok to do that.
She has also blamed me for her reactions, saying things like “ Mona, do you have any idea of what I am feeling and how you are making me feel?”
She has said I have no idea of the impact I have on others but I didn’t think therapy was about processing the therapists feelings towards the client.
I can’t understand why she needs to say the things she does. She has regular therapy and supervision and yet uses my sessions to talk about her feelings and reactions towards me. She really changed her time a few weeks ago when I said how I was feeling towards one of my clients and she said well at least you have an idea of the impact on them, I feel like a psychopath around her with no feelings.

[SalingerEsme]

She is in a position to do you so much damage with those unforgivable things she says. Therapy has to have margins of safety around the edges , and this seems like thin ice feelings all the time

[here today]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

I still blame myself and my feelings- I guess it’s the little girl in me who can’t comprehend that this could be my ts fault

That was the linchpin of the problem for me, too.

[JaneTennison1]

Originally Posted by here today

That was the linchpin of the problem for me, too.

I read something once about how people tend to try and "take the blame" because everything feels chaotic with an abuser and the only thing you can control is yourself, so you blame yourself and vow to do better. The truth is you can never please an abuser and, in fact, dont even have to.

[Anastasia~]

Can you try to find a T who you can see concurrently while you are closing up with exT? Like you did the last time, but hopefully, this time you will have a good T. I'm thinking about you and wishing you well. I was in this situation and it was pain beyond belief, so I get it as do a lot of other people here. Take care.

[cinnamon_roll]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

Wow, thank for sharing your experience C-r, that really gives me hope.
I really liked how you dealt with this situation with your t and really trusted your gut. It’s not easy to do but sounds like it paid off for you.

Well, it took me a while to realize what was happening, and to trust my gut. It scared the ***** out of me. And I kept wondering, what if T is right, and I'm just in a strop and resisting her, because she is right?

Reading my notes I noticed that some of the red flags were there right from the beginning... which really scared me, and still makes me really sad. What part of me made me go there and what kept me going?

Did you expect a reply to your letter and do you need some closure with your t or are you ok with how it was left? I ask because my anxiety was tearing up reading this and my attachment.
Your t sounds very similar to mine, only the operate in different ways but the outcome is the same- gaslighting and manipulation.

I was kind of scared that she might reply, a friend of mine who supported me a lot during this time kept telling me that she won't, and she was right.
A closure session right after all this happened would have been difficult and I guess T would have ripped me to pieces. It would have been "nice" and formally correct for her to offer something like a closure session, but I doubt I would have taken her up on it. It was so difficult to come to a place where I could leave her, that I felt that any contact would have been detrimental and I even might have been "at risk" to change my mind.

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

This happens a lot with my t. She really had a go at me out of the blue one day. I sat there in shock, she did apologise afterwards and blamed counter transference but it wasn’t ok to do that.
She has also blamed me for her reactions, saying things like “ Mona, do you have any idea of what I am feeling and how you are making me feel?”
She has said I have no idea of the impact I have on others but I didn’t think therapy was about processing the therapists feelings towards the client.
I can’t understand why she needs to say the things she does. She has regular therapy and supervision and yet uses my sessions to talk about her feelings and reactions towards me. She really changed her time a few weeks ago when I said how I was feeling towards one of my clients and she said well at least you have an idea of the impact on them, I feel like a psychopath around her with no feelings.

Mona, as you say: This is not right. Your therapy should be about you and not about your T. You are not to blame for your T's feelings. You are not to take responsibility for your T's feelings. Even if there are situations where it might be right for a T to give a client insight into their feelings of countertransference, it should always be for the client's benefit, and in this case timing is crucial....

You probably know all this already. In fact, on a cognitive level I knew all this. After my last session with this T (which I didn't know at the time) on my way home, this cognitive truth suddenly transformed into emotional truth. And this was the moment when I just knew I had to get out of there... The first few weeks were awful. I kept wondering whether she was right and I was wrong. And whether my underlying issues were the real problems in this. But at the same time the relief and the freedom I felt were huge. So I decided that another T might be more helpful to work on my stuff... Whenever I feel ready for that.

I know, how difficult and conflicting this situation must feel for you. But ultimately you have to take care of yourself and your needs and not of your T's needs.

I wish you strength and clarity, and that you will find the place inside of you where you just know what is to be done.

c_r

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

I am not sure what I need from posting but I just need to express my feelings.
I woke up this morning and had terrible negative transference towards my t.
I think I am starting to realise slowly what has been happening between t and I.
I am ready to acknowledge that what has happened is not normal or productive and that t has crossed my boundaries and been very unethical.
I swung from denying to acknowledging. To wanting to run away to cant do without her. These feelings terrify me. I don’t ever want to go back to her again. You can’t unlearn what you have learned, t hasn’t changed but I have.
I have this gut feeling all day that t is evil and wicked and I don’t know why.

I don't think that's negative transference.

[mostlylurking]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

I have called her cruel and untrustworthy over the last year and she has told me I am very easy to abuse, it’s really inappropriate now that I think about it.

To tell someone that they are very easy to abuse strikes me as sadistic, not merely inappropriate. It implies that strong people don't get abused but weak people do, and that thinking seems quite sociopathic-- it values power above decency. It's not that you are "easy to abuse." It's that she finds it easy to abuse people.

You mentioned she is abusive and wicked like your mother and your ex-partner. I wonder if you might be seeking out the same type of person, in hopes of changing the ending of the story? Maybe part of her allure might be the opportunity to force this story to go another way?

I very much hope that the change in the story is that you give up on this unnecessary villain, and stop subjecting yourself to her. I think it's what your gut is telling you to do, it's what some of us here are hoping to see you do, and if you found a good T I think it's something they could help you to do.

[cinnamon_roll]

Originally Posted by mostlylurking

I wonder if you might be seeking out the same type of person, in hopes of changing the ending of the story? Maybe part of her allure might be the opportunity to force this story to go another way?

Thanks for this, mostlylurking. I think for me this is a major factor why I ended up with my (now) Ex-T. We had a rather rocky start, which was due to her leaving me hanging in mid-air while. We agreed to work with each other, she said she'd get back to me once the insurance cleared my therapy sessions, which would normally take about 4-6 weeks, max. And I never heard from her. My phonecalls were left unanswered. Which I find outrageous now, that I think about it. And still, I did go back to her, once I got hold of her and got some sort of feeble apology why she didn't get round to calling me back...

Nobody forced me to go back to her. It was my own decision. Which scares me, because how can I be sure that this doesn't happen again?

This T and how she acted and how she made me feel probably felt far too familiar. And this familiarity felt safe, because I know how to behave in the face of 'danger', because my nervous system is hardwired to be on constant alert. Because a "safer" T might actually activate my inner alarm system, because it feels so strangely unfamiliar...