[rainbow8]

I know it's because we missed 1 1/2 weeks and I'm seeing her 2 hours earlier than usual. She wrote Happy New Year and there was a smiley emoticon after the subject line of "See you Wednesday." But she didn't sign "love" in either of her last 2 emails. I haven't written her since asking if I destroyed our relationship.

Not signing love probably doesn't mean anything but I am still afraid she might be angry or disappointed in me. She will probably do her usual "where is a good place to start today" bit anyway. Or ask if I feel any better physically which I do. I'm just not looking forward to my session. I want to feel connected to her, not dissociate or not be able to talk. It's harder because of the missed session too. Oh, yuck. I always look forward to seeing my T but I don't want to "mess up." No point to this post. Just my reaction to T's email.

[malika138]

Focus on the happy smiley face!

[feileacan]

And what would happen if it turned out that she is angry or disappointed in you? I mean, you are what you are and you can't change it anyway (at least not very easily) and she, as a therapist, knows it very well. Thus, if you make her angry or disappointed you don't have much control over it anyway. So why worry about it? Especially because she is your therapist and is ethically obliged to treat you anyway, regardless of whether she is angry or disappointed in you.

What are the chances that she feels that way towards you anyway? Do you believe that she is so invested in you that she cannot distance her from you enough so she wouldn't get angry and disappointed in you?

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by feileacan

And what would happen if it turned out that she is angry or disappointed in you? I mean, you are what you are and you can't change it anyway (at least not very easily) and she, as a therapist, knows it very well. Thus, if you make her angry or disappointed you don't have much control over it anyway. So why worry about it? Especially because she is your therapist and is ethically obliged to treat you anyway, regardless of whether she is angry or disappointed in you.

What are the chances that she feels that way towards you anyway? Do you believe that she is so invested in you that she cannot distance her from you enough so she wouldn't get angry and disappointed in you?

She might want to express that I disregarded her feelings so I know I shouldn't do that with "real people." I know I posted I want her to punish me but that's a child part. She's usually honest so if my behavior bothered her ( aside from being my T) she will tell me. Like when I drove past her house she said I didn't have permission and I didn't understand that she had feelings about it. I'm not sure if this is the same or different. Her bf has professional stuff online so I didn't violate his privacy.

[unaluna]

This is all coming from you, that you feel like youre going to be punished, that you did something wrong. Its like a Catholic's awareness of Original Sin, that youre never good enough. Is a puzzlement!

[feileacan]

So it depends solely on her response and you can't decide things for yourself? Thus, if she expresses anger over your behaviour then what you did was wrong and you shouldn't be doing it anymore. Whereas when she reassures you that she is not angry nor disappointed then what you did was right and you can continue doing that without feeling guilty?

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by feileacan

So it depends solely on her response and you can't decide things for yourself? Thus, if she expresses anger over your behaviour then what you did was wrong and you shouldn't be doing it anymore. Whereas when she reassures you that she is not angry nor disappointed then what you did was right and you can continue doing that without feeling guilty?

Of course not! Most of me feels it's wrong but a part doesn't.

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Of course not!

Ok, but how should that statement be interpreted then?

She might want to express that I disregarded her feelings so I know I shouldn't do that with "real people."

[feileacan]

Ok, I see you edited your response. But these other parts that consider it wrong. What in particular you consider wrong?

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by feileacan

Ok, I see you edited your response. But these other parts that consider it wrong. What in particular you consider wrong?

I think it was wrong to Google T's bf's name because in the past when I asked her she would only tell me his first name. She didn't want me to know his last name so I assume she didn't want me to look him up. I know I was wrong to do it anyway.

The part that thinks it's okay just wants to be part of T's family. I know most people say I can control that part. That doesn't mean I shouldn't discuss her ( the child part) desires again. That's what this attachment stuff is all about.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I think it was wrong to Google T's bf's name because in the past when I asked her she would only tell me his first name. She didn't want me to know his last name so I assume she didn't want me to look him up. I know I was wrong to do it anyway.

The part that thinks it's okay just wants to be part of T's family. I know most people say I can control that part. That doesn't mean I shouldn't discuss her ( the child part) desires again. That's what this attachment stuff is all about.

Don't blame the attachment. You're still responsible for your actions.

[AllHeart]

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

Don't blame the attachment. You're still responsible for your actions.

I can see R8 taking responsibility for the actions brought on by her insecure attachment issues. She feels she did wrong, admits it (to herself, her t, and to us here on pc), and is working to take corrective action from what I can see.

Originally Posted by feileacan

And what would happen if it turned out that she is angry or disappointed in you? I mean, you are what you are and you can't change it anyway (at least not very easily) and she, as a therapist, knows it very well. Thus, if you make her angry or disappointed you don't have much control over it anyway. So why worry about it? Especially because she is your therapist and is ethically obliged to treat you anyway, regardless of whether she is angry or disappointed in you.


What are the chances that she feels that way towards you anyway? Do you believe that she is so invested in you that she cannot distance her from you enough so she wouldn't get angry and disappointed in you?

Sorry but this is going off subject here- apologies Rainbow but I just got a reaction here and wanted to say that therapists aren’t ethically obliged to treat anyone especially if they are angered or disappointed in their clients.
I was talking about this in supervision at the weekend- being really angered by a client who consistently crosses my boundaries and my supervisor said well why do you think you have to treat her.
We explored it and decided that in actual fact therapists are not obliged to treat anyone.

Sorry Rainbow this is not about you, I know you struggle with boundaries but I really see you working on that with your t, that is progress and exploration.
My client is completely different and I don’t mean to derail your thread here I just wanted to point out that why should a therapist be ethically obliged to treat anyone, especially when they are not being respected in the relationship.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

Don't blame the attachment. You're still responsible for your actions.

I don't totally agree. Is a baby responsible for it's actions? The part is apparently very young and does not yet have that sense of responsibility. I will ask my T about that in Wednesday. I need to be responsible for that part, but it's not like she's killing anyone. She doesn't get boundaries. I do. So I need to be responsible. I agree but it's not black and white. I'm sure T will agree. I will let you know. I could be wrong with how I apply IFS.

Originally Posted by AllHeart

I can see R8 taking responsibility for the actions brought on by her insecure attachment issues. She feels she did wrong, admits it (to herself, her t, and to us here on pc), and is working to take corrective action from what I can see.

I am working on being able to learn to control that child part which still wants to be part of T's life. I'm more sure of what I need to address in my session now. Thank you.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by unaluna

This is all coming from you, that you feel like youre going to be punished, that you did something wrong. Its like a Catholic's awareness of Original Sin, that youre never good enough. Is a puzzlement!

True, I never think I'm good enough. I always mess up somehow. Maybe because my parents never punished me? I WANT the punishment u feel I deserve somehow? I don't know but I couldn't have been that good! How come I never got punished?

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

Sorry but this is going off subject here- apologies Rainbow but I just got a reaction here and wanted to say that therapists aren’t ethically obliged to treat anyone especially if they are angered or disappointed in their clients.
I was talking about this in supervision at the weekend- being really angered by a client who consistently crosses my boundaries and my supervisor said well why do you think you have to treat her.
We explored it and decided that in actual fact therapists are not obliged to treat anyone.

Sorry Rainbow this is not about you, I know you struggle with boundaries but I really see you working on that with your t, that is progress and exploration.
My client is completely different and I don’t mean to derail your thread here I just wanted to point out that why should a therapist be ethically obliged to treat anyone, especially when they are not being respected in the relationship.

Sorry too about off-topic but I too have a fairly strong opinion about this topic.

1) I wasn't talking generally, I was at the current moment specifically thinking about Rainbow and her T. They have had such a long working relationship and although there are valid reasons for stopping seeing a patient and referring her to someone else (such as closing practice due to age, relocation or health problems) I don't consider becoming angry as an ethical reason for stopping seeing her. I also believe that Rainbow has no real reason to worry about it because based on her accounts it seems that her T has her best interests in mind.

2) Now, in general I agree with you and disagree at the same time. I agree that the T is not obliged to see a person she finds she can't treat for what ever reason. However, this is something that should come out during assessment period. Not every client who steps in should be potential income to the T, the T has the obligation to think and assess whether she could work with that client and with her potential conditions and otherwise refer the patient elsewhere.

3) I disgree that it is ethical to stop seeing a client because she makes the T angry. You have accepted this person as your patient and you are in this s... together. I consider it unethical to step out when things get difficult - with difficult problems you should expect things to go difficult and you have your training, your own therapy and supervision precisely in order to try to orient yourself in those difficult times and not to abandon the patient.

4) If you are getting angry to a patient because she is constantly overstepping your boundaries then the T has her own work to do. I realise that you are in a difficult situation in this respect as I've understood that your own therapy is not the most useful place to learn how to healthily set boundaries and tolerate and hold anger - but that's your problem and not the problem of your patient who has every right to expect that you are able to set proper boundaries without attacking or abandoning her and that you are able to deal with your own anger without lashing out to her.

5) I'm sorry but I specifically dislike supervisors as you describe. If a case is under supervision then you all three are in this s... together. In the described case it seems that the supervisor does not take any real responsibility over the treatment and is also willing you to give a free way out. Remember, you are there to help the patient and not to run when things get difficult! I've read horrible stories about people being terribly harmed because a supervisor who has not taken responsibility has given the therapist free way out, both leaving the patient in her difficulties alone - very unethical according to my standards.

I realise that I've expressed very strong opinions and you may not like it but that's what I generally think about this topic.

Originally Posted by feileacan

Sorry too about off-topic but I too have a fairly strong opinion about this topic.


1) I wasn't talking generally, I was at the current moment specifically thinking about Rainbow and her T. They have had such a long working relationship and although there are valid reasons for stopping seeing a patient and referring her to someone else (such as closing practice due to age, relocation or health problems) I don't consider becoming angry as an ethical reason for stopping seeing her. I also believe that Rainbow has no real reason to worry about it because based on her accounts it seems that her T has her best interests in mind.


2) Now, in general I agree with you and disagree at the same time. I agree that the T is not obliged to see a person she finds she can't treat for what ever reason. However, this is something that should come out during assessment period. Not every client who steps in should be potential income to the T, the T has the obligation to think and assess whether she could work with that client and with her potential conditions and otherwise refer the patient elsewhere.


3) I disgree that it is ethical to stop seeing a client because she makes the T angry. You have accepted this person as your patient and you are in this s... together. I consider it unethical to step out when things get difficult - with difficult problems you should expect things to go difficult and you have your training, your own therapy and supervision precisely in order to try to orient yourself in those difficult times and not to abandon the patient.


4) If you are getting angry to a patient because she is constantly overstepping your boundaries then the T has her own work to do. I realise that you are in a difficult situation in this respect as I've understood that your own therapy is not the most useful place to learn how to healthily set boundaries and tolerate and hold anger - but that's your problem and not the problem of your patient who has every right to expect that you are able to set proper boundaries without attacking or abandoning her and that you are able to deal with your own anger without lashing out to her.


5) I'm sorry but I specifically dislike supervisors as you describe. If a case is under supervision then you all three are in this s... together. In the described case it seems that the supervisor does not take any real responsibility over the treatment and is also willing you to give a free way out. Remember, you are there to help the patient and not to run when things get difficult! I've read horrible stories about people being terribly harmed because a supervisor who has not taken responsibility has given the therapist free way out, both leaving the patient in her difficulties alone - very unethical according to my standards.


I realise that I've expressed very strong opinions and you may not like it but that's what I generally think about this topic.

Everyone is free to their own opinions and I agree and disagree with a lot of what your are saying.
Firstly some clients think a t should be able to tolerate all kinds of abusive behaviour just because they are the t’s client. Sometimes that is not the reason the client is in therapy you haven’t took them on as a client who is abusive in relationships. The client is there for another reason and their behaviour clearly becomes abusive during the treatment, that’s not ok. When you have explored it with your client and they take No responsibility, no actions to change their behaviour than its up to the therapist to assert their own boundaries and say well we have talked about this a lot and I don’t experience any changes. Then why should a therapist be ethically obliged to continue being abused.

Secondly,
I know this is about Rainbow and her situation is different, sorry again Rainbow for derailing.

I sense a lot of judgement about me, my supervisor and my own therapist. Yes, I brought them into this thread and made it about me, apologies but I don’t think anyone has any right to judge anyone else on here under any circumstances.

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

I sense a lot of judgement about me, my supervisor and my own therapist. Yes, I brought them into this thread and made it about me, apologies but I don’t think anyone has any right to judge anyone else on here under any circumstances.

Yes, it's true that I expressed some judgments. As you may have noticed I have basically never commented in your own threads (and perhaps I've really never done it). But here you expressed as if your supervisor's opinion should be some kind of argument and to me it clearly isn't.

Originally Posted by feileacan

Yes, it's true that I expressed some judgments. As you may have noticed I have basically never commented in your own threads (and perhaps I've really never done it). But here you expressed as if your supervisor's opinion should be some kind of argument and to me it clearly isn't.

Strongly agree with all your points.

(won't use the "thanks" feature as it gets abused, and people use as a bully tactic)

Originally Posted by feileacan

Yes, it's true that I expressed some judgments. As you may have noticed I have basically never commented in your own threads (and perhaps I've really never done it). But here you expressed as if your supervisor's opinion should be some kind of argument and to me it clearly isn't.

My supervisors comments followed a lot of other comments and exploration before coming to that point.
We looked at my own wounds and how I was bringing them with me. I had been abandoned and terminated by previous therapists so I really understand both sides of the arguments.
Anyway, I respect your points and I also stand by mine. Thank you

[JaneTennison1]

Hi Rainbow. I think we all have a young part that wants to give in and we all have an adult part that controls things. My question would be what led your impulse control to fail that day? You have kept control for 2 years and then one day the big part caved and indulged in your wishes so it's very curious as why? It's like an addict falling off the wagon. You have to know why it happened and put things in place to stop it happening again. Maybe your T will be mad but hopefully she can also help.

I also think that a professional is not obligated or should not even be expected to tolerate abusive behavior just because they are paid to endure it. But in the context of this thread, I personally don't see abuse in what rainbow shares with us although what abuse means to someone can be highly subjective and depend on individual consideration and tolerance, even in a T.

I just would like to comment on the "child part" again. I did this before and I am openly not someone who likes to view/use the self in this way beyond for the sake of analysis and discussion, so many may disagree. But I can't help to think each time I hear responsibility delegated in this way that it might be a form of avoidance, a sort of voluntary dissociation of feelings and behaviors that do exist but cause intense conflicts to the self. I think that unless someone suffers from an out-of-control dissociative disorder, viewing certain parts of our desires (no matter how destructive) as those of children will likely not lead to much progress in terms of integrity and self acceptance, even in therapy if this view persists and is acted on over and over again. It might be a way to tolerate discomfort and conflicting feelings, but cultivating it will probably not lead to much change and more just maintains the discomfort.

Rainbow, from all that you say on this forum, your T seems quite exceptionally tolerant and adaptable. Yes, maybe she sometimes feels anger at all this, and not without reason, but she tries her best not to infuse your interactions with it, no? You really go out of your way to try to believe that she does not have negative feelings toward you, but at the same time you do keenly feel when whatever you do might have a negative impact, which shows that it is not an issue with your judgment. Of course then you worry, because it generates intense cognitive dissonances and, with that, discomfort. I think it is great that you sit with the discomfort and discuss it, but maybe at some point it would be more progressive to not see it as coming from a frustrated inner child, but from a complex adult who has a great variety of desires, feelings, opinions, behaviors? I think no one can truly nurture and balance those "child" feelings inside but yourself, as long as you expect it from your T or anyone else, there will always be dissatisfaction and anxiety as the inner avoidance is not resolved and probably strengthened by referring to elements of your very self as though it was someone else, expecting unconditional acceptance from the outside (other people). That external "pure" reinforcement will just never last, it is not how human nature and the world works really.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

I also think that a professional is not obligated or should not even be expected to tolerate abusive behavior just because they are paid to endure it. But in the context of this thread, I personally don't see abuse in what rainbow shares with us although what abuse means to someone can be highly subjective and depend on individual consideration and tolerance, even in a T.

I just would like to comment on the "child part" again. I did this before and I am openly not someone who likes to view/use the self in this way beyond for the sake of analysis and discussion, so many may disagree. But I can't help to think each time I hear responsibility delegated in this way that it might be a form of avoidance, a sort of voluntary dissociation of feelings and behaviors that do exist but cause intense conflicts to the self. I think that unless someone suffers from an out-of-control dissociative disorder, viewing certain parts of our desires (no matter how destructive) as those of children will likely not lead to much progress in terms of integrity and self acceptance, even in therapy if this view persists and is acted on over and over again. It might be a way to tolerate discomfort and conflicting feelings, but cultivating it will probably not lead to much change and more just maintains the discomfort.

Rainbow, from all that you say on this forum, your T seems quite exceptionally tolerant and adaptable. Yes, maybe she sometimes feels anger at all this, and not without reason, but she tries her best not to infuse your interactions with it, no? You really go out of your way to try to believe that she does not have negative feelings toward you, but at the same time you do keenly feel when whatever you do might have a negative impact, which shows that it is not an issue with your judgment. Of course then you worry, because it generates intense cognitive dissonances and, with that, discomfort. I think it is great that you sit with the discomfort and discuss it, but maybe at some point it would be more progressive to not see it as coming from a frustrated inner child, but from a complex adult who has a great variety of desires, feelings, opinions, behaviors? I think no one can truly nurture and balance those "child" feelings inside but yourself, as long as you expect it from your T or anyone else, there will always be dissatisfaction and anxiety as the inner avoidance is not resolved and probably strengthened by referring to elements of your very self as though it was someone else, expecting unconditional acceptance from the outside (other people). That external "pure" reinforcement will just never last, it is not how human nature and the world works really.

Just one comment now as I have to get dressed and ready to answer my door! The parts stuff is from IFS which is a real therapy modality. It's not a copout! You don't have to agree with it, and I see that you don't but my T uses it successfully. We all have parts of our personalities. Google Internal Family Systems if you want to understand it. More later but thanks!

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Just one comment now as I have to get dressed and ready to answer my door! The parts stuff is from IFS which is a real therapy modality. It's not a copout! You don't have to agree with it, and I see that you don't but my T uses it successfully. We all have parts of our personalities. Google Internal Family Systems if you want to understand it. More later but thanks!

I'm not that familiar with IFS but one thing I've understood is that in IFS work you basically have to keep the adult part present and mediating the other (child) parts at all times. In that sense it seems that what Xynesthesia wrote is very much in accordance with IFS view.

[JaneTennison1]

Most of us have a part that isn't mature. My boss tells me to work late an hr and a little inner voice says no and has a tantrum. Since I want to keep my job what I say out loud is sure boss.

I know nothing about IFS. I think you are fully responsible but there are urges and thoughts that sometimes people don't keep a hold of.I think it's so important to explain what stops you being in charge and how to regain control of things. It's not dissociating but acknowledging what is part of you.