[Rive1976]

In being born bad. Agree or disagree?

[velcro003]

I agree. Babies are innocent.

[stopdog]

I think bad and good are relative. I am not a huge believer in the idea that children are all goodness and light, but I don't believe that babies are born bad in any sense that I would define it. They can be annoying as all get out.

[DP_2017]

You mean as in evil?

My family has debated this before. I think you can be, it's just so hard to explain how like some young children can lack all empathy, remorse and such and just be so evil and cold.

However, most of my family agrees with your T

[nottrustin]

I think babies are born innocent. They are a product of their environment or experiences.

[TrailRunner14]

Curt Thompson says,

“Every child comes into this world looking for someone, looking for them.”

I believe that is innocence looking for love to embrace it with love.

They are a blank sheet.

[Amyjay]

I believe all are born human. They are born with the capacity to take in the characteristics of the social world around them and adapt themselves to what they find there . If they experience "love and light", bar a gene for psychopathy inadvertently being switched on by something in the environment, they should turn out pretty decent. If they experience hurt and harm, human development can take a pretty different course.

I think infants are born with the capacity to become pro-social or anti-social. It mostly - but not exclusively - depends on the adults they get.

I also think that the meaning of bad (or good) is not simple. These are qualifications that do not exist on their own, in nature, they are created and experienced by humans. So, subjective by definition.

I believe in genetics and other biological mechanisms. It is a well known fact that some genetic backgrounds can predispose people to aggressive, antisocial, violent behaviors. As such, we can say that some babies are born with a tendency to be "bad" and it may or may not manifest later. Of course environment and experience can modify the function of our genetic material dramatically but DNA, and a few other biological features that are established prenatally, are things we are born with.

I personally don't tend to be moved by babies at all, they don't invoke in me any strong association of innocence or tender feelings (that's just me, I also never wanted kids). What is innocence actually? Not breaking the law is the easiest definition, and of course babies are then innocent.

It's more that they have not yet had the life to demonstrate lots of actions. I also think that they can be more selfish than many adults as they are primarily creatures of instinct and very basic needs and have not yet learned self-control and other forms of complex social interaction. Of course they cannot be violent easily since they don't have the physical capabilities or language/complex emotional behavior to be abusive. But babies can be more ruthlessly needy than even an older infant (who already developed some control), it is simply a need to survive and have basic functions and comfort fulfilled.

[DP_2017]

I didn't read this yet, way too early but here, you might find this interesting

Are Babies Born Good?
|
Science | Smithsonian

[mcl6136]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

I didn't read this yet, way too early but here, you might find this interesting

Are Babies Born Good?
|
Science | Smithsonian

Really salient pieces! Thanks!

[SlumberKitty]

I think an important question is why do you think babies can be born bad?

[Rive1976]

Originally Posted by SlumberKitty

I think an important question is why do you think babies can be born bad?

Because I started to think bad thoughts really young and haven't found a reason yet.

Have you ever acted out those thoughts, Dnester? I remember your previous threads where you said no, they are just thoughts. Everyone has bad thoughts, sometimes really inappropriate, even violent thoughts. I think that is normal and, individually, we all have our own variety. The more important thing is how we manage them, or even perhaps not manage, but whether we DO anything in response to them. If not, and you have been able to keep them to yourself well into adulthood, why are thoughts a problem at all? Of course they can be a problem even internally if they cause discomfort, anxiety, or excessive self-flagellation. If that is the case, it may be worth working on why you emotionally react so strongly to mere thoughts. But thoughts alone do not make someone a bad person! It might actually make you a good person if you know your thoughts/desires would be inappropriate/harmful if acted on, and you are able to successfully self-regulate and keep them in your head. Or maybe find a sort of Sublimation-type transformation/act (look up in psychological defenses if you are not familiar with it).

The reason might simply be being born human and nothing else.

[Rive1976]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

Have you ever acted out those thoughts, Dnester? I remember your previous threads where you said no, they are just thoughts. Everyone has bad thoughts, sometimes really inappropriate, even violent thoughts. I think that is normal and, individually, we all have our own variety. The more important thing is how we manage them, or even perhaps not manage, but whether we DO anything in response to them. If not, and you have been able to keep them to yourself well into adulthood, why are thoughts a problem at all? Of course they can be a problem even internally if they cause discomfort, anxiety, or excessive self-flagellation. If that is the case, it may be worth working on why you emotionally react so strongly to mere thoughts. But thoughts alone do not make someone a bad person! It might actually make you a good person if you know your thoughts/desires would be inappropriate/harmful if acted on, and you are able to successfully self-regulate and keep them in your head. Or maybe find a sort of Sublimation-type transformation/act (look up in psychological defenses if you are not familiar with it).

The reason might simply be being born human and nothing else.

I did as a teenager and child. So to me it's a big deal. Exspecially since I dont know why.

[PurpleBlur]

Originally Posted by Dnester

In being born bad. Agree or disagree?

i think sometimes sociopaths are born. they just are that way without being abused.


so yea i think you can be born bad.

I see. But again, many children and teens act out impulses that would, and will, be deemed inappropriate and no-go territory later in adulthood. I did quite a bit myself, even just progressing from young- to mid-adult life.

Possible trigger:

I've initiated a lot of sexual-type explorations as a kindergarten-age child. Never forced anyone but pulled many similarly curious other kids into it. We were sometimes caught by the kindergarten teachers, other times by my parents. Neither the kindergarten teachers nor my parents blew it up much, mostly just made us know that it was not appropriate public behavior and then distracted/engaged us in other things. Not many times caught though, I've found ways to explore what I wanted to with like-minded kids many times. Nothing hardcore, mostly just looking and simple, soft touching. I was also often the youngest/younger kid initiating these things in a group, usually a mix of both girls and boys. It never became anything extreme or uncomfortable, then I just naturally grew into a curious bisexual teen and adult with an active fantasy life and, still, with a desire to find like-minded people (never younger, mostly my age group or older) to explore.

I did also have some surprise sexually charged experiences initiated by adults in my childhood between age 10-12, but they were really mild, quick, insignificant, and I actually enjoyed them a lot. Just very transient encounters. None of them were by parents or any other family member. I actually think they added to my sexual awareness and development positively. They were also not repetitive, 1-2 events max and then I moved on.

I think some people would consider my early experiences as abuse or abnormal. They might indeed be CSA for some, but not for me. I would not let anyone to make me believe so now, especially a strangerl who does not even know how I tend to act. There are many different views on all this. I do definitely consider forcing as abuse though, no matter what age.

[Rive1976]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

I see. But again, many children and teens act out impulses that would, and will, be deemed inappropriate and no-go territory later in adulthood. I did quite a bit myself, even just progressing from young- to mid-adult life.

Possible trigger:

I've initiated a lot of sexual-type explorations as a kindergarten-age child. Never forced anyone but pulled many similarly curious other kids into it. We were sometimes caught by the kindergarten teachers, other times by my parents. Neither the kindergarten teachers nor my parents blew it up much, mostly just made us know that it was not appropriate public behavior and then distracted/engaged us in other things. Not many times caught though, I've found ways to explore what I wanted to with like-minded kids many times. Nothing hardcore, mostly just looking and simple, soft touching. I was also often the youngest/younger kid initiating these things in a group, usually a mix of both girls and boys. It never became anything extreme or uncomfortable, then I just naturally grew into a curious bisexual teen and adult with an active fantasy life and, still, with a desire to find like-minded people (never younger, mostly my age group or older) to explore.

I did also have some surprise sexually charged experiences initiated by adults in my childhood between age 10-12, but they were really mild, quick, insignificant, and I actually enjoyed them a lot. Just very transient encounters. None of them were by parents or any other family member. I actually think they added to my sexual awareness and development positively. They were also not repetitive, 1-2 events max and then I moved on.

I think some people would consider my early experiences as abuse or abnormal. They might indeed be CSA for some, but not for me. I would not let anyone to make me believe so now, especially a strangerl who does not even know how I tend to act. There are many different views on all this. I do definitely consider forcing as abuse though, no matter what age.

You have a reason you were a sexual child. You didnt abuse.

I did not abuse kids but initiated a few affairs/relationships in my adulthood (>20) with other willing adults that shook the life and even identity of others, quite a few long-term. Now, in retrospect, I should have controlled myself better. But I did not and they did not, either.

I've just read through some of your threads on other subforums. What stands out to me is not really your "bad fantasies", behaviors, or whatever you witnessed, but your guilt and shame about it all. Maybe the latter (guilt/shame) might be a better focus for your self-work than trying to figure out where the thoughts come from?

[Rive1976]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

I did not abuse kids but initiated a few affairs/relationships in my adulthood (>20) with other willing adults that shook the life and even identity of others, quite a few long-term. Now, retrospect, I should have controlled myself better. But I did not and they did not, either.

I've just read through some of your threads on other subforums. What stands out to me is not really your "bad fantasies", behaviors, or whatever you witnessed, but your guilt and shame about it all. Maybe the latter (guilt/shame) might be a better focus for your self-work than trying to figure out where the thoughts come from?

Thank you. They aren't fantasies really. Outside of having the bad thoughts when I am near kids I dont fantasize about them. If I did I would be even more worried.

I also played weird games with dolls as a young girl, if that helps. And I know others who did the same

Possible trigger:

And touched animals.

Also drew elaborate nudes and imaginary scenes before I was 8 years old. I just don't know where all those manual drawing skills went?! Too bad, maybe I could have had a second career...

[Rive1976]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

I also played weird games with dolls as a young girl, if that helps. And I know others who did the same

Possible trigger:

And touched animals.

Also drew elaborate nudes and imaginary scenes before I was 8 years old. I just don't know where all those manual drawing skills went?! Too bad, maybe I could have had a second career...

Yes I've done all that but I dont know why. I mean one of my flashbacks is seeing someone receive oral when I was little but I dont know why that would make me have thoughts about touching kids.

Originally Posted by Dnester

Yes I've done all that but I dont know why. I mean one of my flashbacks is seeing someone receive oral when I was little but I dont know why that would make me have thoughts about touching kids.

Well, to me it is kinda obvious and natural. Why does seeing certain kind of sex stimulate someone to do it? It is pretty much how the porn industry works. Porn can get inappropriate, nasty, illegal, whatever... but it operates based on the basic mechanisms of curiosity, triggers, stimulation. You may want to do the same/similar, or just more of it, maybe in a different variety.

[Rive1976]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

Well, to me it is kinda obvious and natural. Why does seeing certain kind of sex stimulate someone to do it? It is pretty much how the porn industry works. Porn can get inappropriate, nasty, illegal, whatever... but it operates based on the basic mechanisms of curiosity, triggers, stimulation. You may want to do the same/similar, or just more of it, maybe in a different variety.

I dont have any interest in doing anything like that to a child though.

[granite1]

basically i was told my whole young life that i was just born a horrible child . i was difficult etc... it is hard to change such beliefs even when you have been told your adult life that is not true . and it is also hard not to see others in this light .good or bad