Has anyone successfully worked through their transference?

Dec 06, 2018, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

I don't think that wanting to have information and researching independently is the same as the defense mechanism of intellectualizing. The latter implies an escape from dealing with emotions and the irrational elements of our nature. Wanting to understand one's emotional processes, instead of just experiencing them, is pretty much the basic goal of therapy, no? And if someone finds it useful and sees significant improvement due to it in how they handle emotions, I don't think they escape by any means. The whole of therapy is quite an intellectual process and requires that strongly, that is how it can be different from ordinary interactions for many people, I believe. For me personally, many (if not most) of my ordinary interactions also tend to be heavily analytical and involving mutual introspection on psychological factors, one reason therapy did not bring me much new and felt superficial given that therapy sessions were an hour a week (plus some emails) vs. the rest of my life and social interactions all the time. I often quickly lose interest in and move on from people who cannot or do not want to engage with me in this way so, for me, it's part of a long-term, basic lifestyle. And yes, for me dealing with emotions very often involves heavily intellectualizing - escaping into what feels much more pleasurable than actually experiencing negative feelings. That's a defense. But I find that I can work on loosening it much more effectively in everyday life, especially when I have bad days and conflicts with people and trying to resolve them or just let them be. In therapy, just sitting and talking about it... was very much intellectualizing for me instead of doing, and because intellectualizing is kinda automatic for me and can even turn addictive, therapy was just running in the same old familiar circles, which I already do by default. But if someone can use it constructively and improve as a result, that is not an escape or defense IMO.

It's not just intellectual understanding though-it's experiential (not sure if that's the right word). I was trying to get at that with Here today in that it may be more of an implicit felt experience or believing rather than explicit understanding.

Intellectualization did keep me together when i was experiencing emotional flooding, so it wasn't merely a curiosity but it worked in a positive way. You and I are much different in those regards-I've heavily in my emotions (but use isolation), but it's not balanced. And although I'm a very analytical person, it seems to be one or the other. Therapy has helped integrate...

Having an observing ego is good and even necessary to tolerate psychoanalytic therapy, I believe. If you didn't have that, everything would be egosyntonic, where you'd have no awareness. But I think as a defense, intellectualization can have an adverse affect on one day to day in terms of being mindful. It can keep people as an observer of life rather than living in it, similar to depersonalization. So for those prone, analytic therapy can worsen that. You can talk about the transference rather than 'be in it' in terms of therapeutic space. I think this is the other side of the coin of being overly emotional.

Being an observer and not participant in the world around them is a schizoid trait that is accompanied by anhedonia, lack of motivation/procrastination, flat affect, and detachment. Loosening up defenses so one is in an emotional mindset more can help with that. A better regulated ego has balance. But I think of defense mechanisms differently than others here, so I won't go on about it. But it's something I have a deep interest in because it impacts the way your whole mind works, sense of self, and how you relate to others.

Dec 06, 2018, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by octoberful

It's not just intellectual understanding though-it's experiential (not sure if that's the right word). I was trying to get at that with Here today in that it may be more of an implicit felt experience or believing rather than explicit understanding.

Intellectualization did keep me together when i was experiencing emotional flooding, so it wasn't merely a curiosity but it worked in a positive way. You and I are much different in those regards-I've heavily in my emotions (but use isolation), but it's not balanced. And although I'm a very analytical person, it seems to be one or the other. Therapy has helped integrate...

Having an observing ego is good and even necessary to tolerate psychoanalytic therapy, I believe. If you didn't have that, everything would be egosyntonic, where you'd have no awareness. But I think as a defense, intellectualization can have an adverse affect on one day to day in terms of being mindful. It can keep people as an observer of life rather than living in it, similar to depersonalization. So for those prone, analytic therapy can worsen that. You can talk about the transference rather than 'be in it' in terms of therapeutic space. I think this is the other side of the coin of being overly emotional.

Being an observer and not participant in the world around them is a schizoid trait that is accompanied by anhedonia, lack of motivation/procrastination, flat affect, and detachment. Loosening up defenses so one is in an emotional mindset more can help with that. A better regulated ego has balance. But I think of defense mechanisms differently than others here, so I won't go on about it. But it's something I have a deep interest in because it impacts the way your whole mind works, sense of self, and how you relate to others.

This is a really great post, thank you. I definitely have schizoid streaks, it is much better now than when I was much younger though. One way to overcome/improve it is via things that I am really passionate about it and not just in an analytical/curiosity interest type way. I don't have that issue about being either emotional or analytical really, in my internal world and significant relationships/interactions it's all mixed and integrated pretty well, I think. What I do have is becoming detached, overly pure-observing and more schizoid-like when I am very anxious, uncertain and insecure (how it is a defense). So it is more an issue about coping with anxiety effectively or in self-defeating ways.

I really doubt that I would ever be able to truly be emotional with a therapist due to the imbalanced and limited structure of therapy. I think the max I could use it is for consultation about specific issues. But I can use ordinary, everyday 3D world (in person) relationships very well for complex experiences, especially people I respect a lot and have a close relationship with. So that's how I do it. It would also never work much online - again, because of its limitations.

Thanks again for your thoughts, I very much appreciate it

BudFox · Dec 06, 2018, 07:00 PM

"Patients who manage to organise non-stop psychotherapy for themselves, year after year replacing one therapist after the other without a break, who even have a number of concurrent therapies at various stages so that they are hardly ever without therapy, learn a lot about psychotherapy, but only to defeat its very purpose. They themselves have no intention whatsoever of changing. They are professional patients. Briefly, they use psychotherapy itself to defend against change. The more disturbed ones, may fantasise or even attempt to become psychotherapists themselves. If they are lucky, they will be rejected by the training institution. If not, they will join the ranks of those bad therapists, who are well-versed in theory, but who have distorted attitudes, a tendency to intellectualise, and who are unable to work in the here-and-now, or make therapeutic use of transference and their own countertransference."

-----

While this is particularly aggressive, arrogant, judgmental, condescending, entitled, and creepy... I think it is still typical therapist attitude. People hate generalizations about therapists, but I think the above paragraph is further evidence that therapists as a group are low awareness creatures. It's easy to castigate clients for becoming addicts, but how often do you see one of these cranks acknowledging their own role in that process? Never. Instead they argue that the process that gives rise to addiction and trauma repetition and abandonment panic is the very same process the client should trust as the path to enlightenment. I wouldn't sit alone in a room with this person if you paid me. Ironically these aggressive ones often seem most insistent about trusting them to steer you thru a "corrective" life experience. Also the author mindlessly references standard therapy dogma... resistance to change, transference, "bad" therapists.

Dec 07, 2018, 07:53 AM

I do regret even posting that article! He does sound like an A$$hole.

But it seemed to fit the topic and it led me to question my own motivations to continue therapy. I don't 'need' it any longer since I've done the hardest part already, though I know I will keep benefiting.

I have dependency issues and am wondering if that's part of why I want to keep going when I can use the money for other things. Hmm.

here today · Dec 07, 2018, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by octoberful

. . .I don't 'need' it any longer since I've done the hardest part already, though I know I will keep benefiting. . .

A question, if you will -- how do you "know" you will keep benefiting? In what ways do you think/feel you can still benefit? Could you, perhaps, get those benefits in other ways?

LonesomeTonight · Dec 07, 2018, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by octoberful

I do regret even posting that article! He does sound like an A$$hole.

But it seemed to fit the topic and it led me to question my own motivations to continue therapy. I don't 'need' it any longer since I've done the hardest part already, though I know I will keep benefiting.

I have dependency issues and am wondering if that's part of why I want to keep going when I can use the money for other things. Hmm.

I mentioned some stuff from the article to my T today, and he agreed with your A$$hole assessment! And said he didn't agree with that about longer-term therapy.

TeaVicar? · Dec 07, 2018, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by octoberful

It's not just intellectual understanding though-it's experiential (not sure if that's the right word). I was trying to get at that with Here today in that it may be more of an implicit felt experience or believing rather than explicit understanding.

Intellectualization did keep me together when i was experiencing emotional flooding, so it wasn't merely a curiosity but it worked in a positive way. You and I are much different in those regards-I've heavily in my emotions (but use isolation), but it's not balanced. And although I'm a very analytical person, it seems to be one or the other. Therapy has helped integrate...

Having an observing ego is good and even necessary to tolerate psychoanalytic therapy, I believe. If you didn't have that, everything would be egosyntonic, where you'd have no awareness. But I think as a defense, intellectualization can have an adverse affect on one day to day in terms of being mindful. It can keep people as an observer of life rather than living in it, similar to depersonalization. So for those prone, analytic therapy can worsen that. You can talk about the transference rather than 'be in it' in terms of therapeutic space. I think this is the other side of the coin of being overly emotional.

Being an observer and not participant in the world around them is a schizoid trait that is accompanied by anhedonia, lack of motivation/procrastination, flat affect, and detachment. Loosening up defenses so one is in an emotional mindset more can help with that. A better regulated ego has balance. But I think of defense mechanisms differently than others here, so I won't go on about it. But it's something I have a deep interest in because it impacts the way your whole mind works, sense of self, and how you relate to others.

I can relate to a lot of what you have written.

TeaVicar? · Dec 07, 2018, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by octoberful

I do regret even posting that article! He does sound like an A$$hole.

But it seemed to fit the topic and it led me to question my own motivations to continue therapy. I don't 'need' it any longer since I've done the hardest part already, though I know I will keep benefiting.

I have dependency issues and am wondering if that's part of why I want to keep going when I can use the money for other things. Hmm.

I'm glad you did because I thought it was an interesting take... just a little black and white and not very generous towards the client. I've been wondering lately if I've been 'coasting' therapy and maybe I need to work a little harder but then I have a really harsh super ego

BudFox · Dec 07, 2018, 08:06 PM

Based on my understanding of the research on health interventions and outcomes, odds are high that improved or normalized quality of life while in long term therapy is a case of regression to the mean. Could also be due to simple intangibles like feeling less lonely or more supported.

What's seemingly least likely are the convoluted or nonsensical narratives that therapists favor (e.g. the client's "infantile transference neurosis" was successfully treated). I guess this justifies the high fees and makes therapists feel special (which seem to be the twin aims of the system).

Also, seems many people who report long term benefit are still in therapy. What happens after termination, which seems to destroy some people? Or if termination never comes, does that mean "working thru" transference is a process without end?

koru_kiwi · Dec 08, 2018, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by octoberful

I do regret even posting that article! He does sound like an A$$hole.

But it seemed to fit the topic and it led me to question my own motivations to continue therapy. I don't 'need' it any longer since I've done the hardest part already, though I know I will keep benefiting.

I have dependency issues and am wondering if that's part of why I want to keep going when I can use the money for other things. Hmm.

i'm glad you shared that article. it has provoked some interesting conversations here and, as you have stated, i am sure you are not the only one who is questioning their motivations to continue therapy or if how they are approaching therapy is actually all that beneficial for them (of course it is beneficial for the T because the T is still getting payment from a client who is happy to continue returning regardless if they are dependent or making positive progress or not).

koru_kiwi · Dec 08, 2018, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BudFox

Also, seems many people who report long term benefit are still in therapy. What happens after termination, which seems to destroy some people? Or if termination never comes, does that mean "working thru" transference is a process without end?

those are some interesting questions to ponder

i too wonder why those who are in long term therapy and, i guess they do believe it's beneficial, but why continue to remain instead of going out and 'testing' the skills one should have learned or improved upon from their therapy? why do these clients prefer to remain?

personally, i always thought the point of most therapies was to get one to the point to where they no longer needed the support or assistance of a therapist. similar to a child growing up and going out into the world. i deeply love and cherish my children, and have watched them grow from infant-hood to young adults now. nothing brings me more satisfaction and makes me happier then to know that my job as a parent is almost complete. well, a parents job is never over, but at least i can say i have been with them along the way and watched them grow up into mature adults who i am confident are ready to venture out into the wide world with out me constantly having to hold their hand. i would hope a Ts motivation would be similar. honestly, as much as i love my kids, i want them to succeed and not have to move back home. i do question the motivation of some therapist who are happy to keep a client long term (10 years plus) and do start to wonder if that is more about the T and their needs instead of the clients needs.

feralkittymom · Dec 08, 2018, 01:24 AM

As one client, I would say that during a long therapy, I never experienced an on-going need for a T to hold my hand. I never experienced extreme dependency, nor did my T in any way encourage such dependency. A long-term therapy is not inherently a dysfunctional therapy, nor does it necessarily reflect any significant diagnosis.

And while I have recently been seeing a different T, after 20+ yrs since termination of my first experience, it is for very different reasons having no connection to the former therapy. I would not even characterize this experience as being "in therapy," but rather, as consulting a therapist.

ArtleyWilkins · Dec 08, 2018, 02:01 AM

I was in long-term therapy (10 years) and also never experienced my therapist as hand-holding nor did I experience dependency that made my therapy dysfunctional or laden with transference issues. My therapist always had an end in mind and we worked toward that end so that when my goals were reached, ending therapy was not at all difficult nor was it traumatic or damaging; it was a very natural and positive ending, and I have done extremely well since leaving my therapy nearly 6 years ago.

elisewin · 03:53 AM

I am still in therapy, slowly wrapping things up. I don't see it as "transference not worked through". What a silly thought. For now I benefit from still going, it is a way of self care, not a sign of transference or dependancy. I benefit from discussing my issues and history with a professional, and as long as one finds it does good, I can't see where the problem is. In a way it is like gym or hairdresser for someone else. Something that improves the quality of life.

Gogu2 · Dec 08, 2018, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

My therapist always had an end in mind and we worked toward that end so that when my goals were reached, ending therapy was not at all difficult nor was it traumatic or damaging; it was a very natural and positive ending, and I have done extremely well since leaving my therapy nearly 6 years ago.

You don't miss your therapist ?

here today · Dec 08, 2018, 04:43 AM

It's really interesting reading people's different experiences and emotional reactions to therapy. Several years ago it helped me a lot to read about other people's negative reactions to therapy because I was struggling a lot with my own, and thought the negative reactions in me were "unacceptable" -- as, perhaps they were somewhat in their intensity and in their compartmentalization. Factors that might have been addressed in a "good" therapy -- but how could I, as I was at the time, understand or recognize that on my own? I couldn't/didn't. Reading other people's experiences and opinions about therapy helped me a lot.

I just got the book "The Betrayal Bond" mentioned in another thread, and wow, does it help explain things to me.

I was in therapy for a long time. My last therapist bailed. I/we got (close) to the nugget of my stuff and she bailed. It was too close to her unresolved stuff apparently, and hence "ethical" for her to terminate. What else could she do? She couldn't do what she couldn't do. But what a (repeat) betrayal to/for me.

It may help to distinguish that it wasn't just a "transference" that was the issue. More like, it became reenactment. The T wasn't fully conscious of her stuff, and couldn't get there, and hence couldn't help me. And I was traumatically bonded to her, and to the idea of therapy as help for my problems. A very negative, and hurtful, experience.

Anne2.0 · Dec 08, 2018, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by koru_kiwi

i too wonder why those who are in long term therapy and, i guess they do believe it's beneficial, but why continue to remain instead of going out and 'testing' the skills one should have learned or improved upon from their therapy? why do these clients prefer to remain?

I find it interesting that it seems to be the rule on this board that one should question ("invalidate") that people have experienced harm from therapy, yet when people talk about the benefits they've received from therapy and explain why, it's okay to be skeptical and question their experiences. It appears the questioning does not come from a place of curiosity and desire to learn, but just another way to express an opinion. I'm stepping away from this discussion, which isn't really a discussion at all.

MoxieDoxie · Dec 08, 2018, 07:44 AM

My post had morphed into a whole new animal.

Dec 08, 2018, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by here today

A question, if you will -- how do you "know" you will keep benefiting? In what ways do you think/feel you can still benefit? Could you, perhaps, get those benefits in other ways?

Just in the sense I'm always learning and growing and will use therapy to support it.

ArtleyWilkins · 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gogu2

You don't miss your therapist ?

No, not at all. Therapy served its purpose, quite successfully. My therapy wasn't about him. I like the man a great deal, but once my therapy was no longer needed, I also no longer needed him. He served a very functional purpose for a long time, but he no longer serves that purpose; thus, I've moved on. I run into him from time to time in stores, etc., but he's kind of like that old coworker you used to work with in your last job. You liked them well enough, but you've both moved on to other jobs. You're surprised and pleased to run into each other from time to time, but you catch up for a few minutes and go back to your shopping. LOL.

koru_kiwi · Dec 08, 2018, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessica11

But why attack people for doing what they want to.
Its an ego thing. It's a fear thing.
It's, a narrow vision thing.. It's a lack of real knowledge propped up by rubbish.
Get some therapy on your motives for this view and come back and have a real discussion.

apologies for my offending, but that was not my intention when i responded with curiosity about why or what is it that attracts people to remain in therapy for extended periods of time. i shared my view that for me therapy is intended to help one grow, to eventually leave the nest, sort of speak. that is how i view my own 7 year experince of therapy, but i don't think i would have ever 'left the nest' if i didn't overcome the feeling of being 'addicted' and truama boded to my therapist. for me, it was working through the transference, ending the constant negative reenactments of my early childhood, ending the trauma bond with my T that helped me to grow to where i was no longer afraid to live a life without him in it.

you are correct, it is absolutely about fear. personally, this was the biggest revelations to come to me in therapy. i didn't want to live a life of fear anymore and fortunately found a way to get past the fear and move forward in my life.

so i guess the real crux of my thinking in my prior post was wondering when a client remains in therapy long term, how much of that is of the clients own free will or how much is it influenced and maintained by the therapist triggering and perhaps feeding that fear which keeps the client 'stuck' in long term therapy?

i appreciate hearing others views, including yours, and like many have already shared. i reckon that is where the insightful conversations begin.

koru_kiwi · Dec 08, 2018, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by here today

It's really interesting reading people's different experiences and emotional reactions to therapy. Reading other people's experiences and opinions about therapy helped me a lot.

agreed. i too find it interesting too, and when i was struggling in therapy and with my T, doubting that i was doing it correctly, that i was too blame, i found it invaluable to hear of others experiences, both good and bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by here today

It may help to distinguish that it wasn't just a "transference" that was the issue. More like, it became reenactment. The T wasn't fully conscious of her stuff, and couldn't get there, and hence couldn't help me. And I was traumatically bonded to her, and to the idea of therapy as help for my problems. A very negative, and hurtful, experience.

same, it was not just transference for me either but painful reenactments playing out over and over again. when i started to become more regulated in my emotions, i could see the difference between what i called 'healthy' and 'unhealthy' transference. the unhealthy transference was more about traumatic bonding. as the unhealthy transference began to fade for me i still encountered some transference with my ex-T, but it was manageable and i could work through it with ease. and that is the difference, the unhealthy transference was never workable. it just kept me stuck in a continuous loop spirally downward even further into despair.

koru_kiwi · Dec 08, 2018, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

I find it interesting that it seems to be the rule on this board that one should question ("invalidate") that people have experienced harm from therapy, yet when people talk about the benefits they've received from therapy and explain why, it's okay to be skeptical and question their experiences. It appears the questioning does not come from a place of curiosity and desire to learn, but just another way to express an opinion. I'm stepping away from this discussion, which isn't really a discussion at all.

apologies, my intention was not about invalidating others experiences of therapy, but to share some of the thoughts i ponder about therapy since my own therapy experince and too open up the discussion to hearing others perspectives, whether someone agreed with what i said or not. perhaps my post didn't come off as intended, but others have been willing to share their stories and i appreciate that.

piggy momma · Dec 08, 2018, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by koru_kiwi

so i guess the real crux of my thinking in my prior post was wondering when a client remains in therapy long term, how much of that is of the clients own free will or how much is it influenced and maintained by the therapist triggering and perhaps feeding that fear which keeps the client 'stuck' in long term therapy?

It would be highly unethical for a therapist to use fear, intimidation, threats, or triggers to keep a client in therapy. That's not to say it doesn't happen; I'm sure it does, but it would definitely be the exception and not the norm.

I know for myself, I have to practically beg to stay in therapy. My therapist has tried cutting back my sessions, saying I don't need weekly, and every time he does, *I'll* create a crisis to stay weekly.

I don't have any transference issues at this time, but therapy is my safe place where I can be totally honest about what I'm really thinking and feeling. I like the guy a lot, but not in any romantic or parental kind of way.

koru_kiwi · Dec 08, 2018, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

No, not at all. Therapy served its purpose, quite successfully. My therapy wasn't about him. I like the man a great deal, but once my therapy was no longer needed, I also no longer needed him. He served a very functional purpose for a long time, but he no longer serves that purpose; thus, I've moved on. I run into him from time to time in stores, etc., but he's kind of like that old coworker you used to work with in your last job. You liked them well enough, but you've both moved on to other jobs. You're surprised and pleased to run into each other from time to time, but you catch up for a few minutes and go back to your shopping. LOL.

this is similar for me as well. i still care deeply for my T, but no longer need him and i have moved on. i too remain in contact with my ex-T, pop into him from time to time, have had a few meet ups, and similar to what you said, for me it is like running into an old acquaintance. we both enjoyed each other enough, but we have our own lives and have moved onto new things. it feel very normal, is pleasant time spent for a brief period, and not the least bit awkward. it's good to know that you to have been able to experince similar after your therapy.

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Has anyone successfully worked through their transference?

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