[feralkittymom]

Well, this was bound to end up just as it has, wasn't it? You recognize this is about more than his standing or not. You recognize the emotion you're placing on this one minor action is excessive. The task of therapy is to take that awareness and follow it through, rather than short-circuit it by action. And that's where you are right now: you want to follow it through. The problem is, he doesn't share your framework for the task of therapy. He's a CBT sports psych guy and you keep trying to get him to respond outside his area of practice. He doesn't want to do psychodynamic therapy, yet you keep demanding that he do so. And he keeps dragging you back to that fact, which you don't want to accept.

That's a reenactment in the making. A reason it hasn't blown up entirely is that he won't play along. In that respect, he's doing his job. But the problem is that it still leaves you with an emotional conundrum that you can't resolve with him.

I'm curious about why the recognition on your part that this is about your childhood relationship with your parents isn't enough of a realization for you? Why isn't it for you to think about and solve? You know very well that he is not going to meet the unmet need; he's made that ever so clear. But you've already reached the insight: why do you need him to engage with you about it? You've said before that your parents dismissed your anxieties as a child and you felt some combination of shame/invisibility/confusion/pain about that. OK--there's an unmet need. But to expect someone who has been very clear that they are not going to meet that need and see no point in engaging about it, to nevertheless meet it, is fruitless. It's not therapeutic, it's a compulsion. Are you sure it isn't also fueled by anxiety/OCD?

I think he is defensive, and I think he doesn't express himself in the most skilled way. I think there is a level of rudeness in his reply. But one thing he is clear about is his boundaries and the psychological arena in which he practices. And he is clear about your refusal to accept this. I thought he should have drawn the line at the stone. I can imagine he talked himself into allowing it out of a sense of the stone as a talisman and mindfulness during your interview. That would fit with a sports psych perspective. It was when you made the association of connection to him that he got uncomfortable--because that is a psychoanalytically based concept, and he either doesn't know much about it or has rejected it.


For me, it's the question: what's really going on that you feel a need to keep trying to make him respond in a way that is counter to his perspective? And how does that help you? If he's been helpful in terms of anxiety or something, fine--keep using him for that. If he's a pretty good T, he'll keep drawing that line in the sand; if the time comes when he feels there's diminishing benefit to you to keep seeing you, he'll terminate. But you're never going to get needs met that are beyond the scope of his practice.

[kaleidoscopeheart]

I can definitely see how T's response would trigger some serious feelings and I am sorry that you are struggling with this. It can definitely be read in a way that feels like you are being scolded but, if it is possible for you to step back from the emotions involved, it can also just be read as him calmly setting boundaries. The therapeutic relationship is a confusing mess sometimes. I think you have every right to ask for what you need. That being said, he also has the right to refuse. Who knows, maybe he has insecurities too that make him uncomfortable standing at the end of the appointment.... like maybe he sweats a lot and if he stood you would see his whole backside was soaking wet from sitting so long or there is a pool of sweat in his chair or something like that. Anyway, I really hope you are able to go in and reconnect with him and work this out. In the long run, does it really matter if he sits or stands at the end? I know you said that it was about something else, but you weren't sure what. Maybe spend the time from now until your next appointment focusing on that and not so much how he ends the appointment? Sometimes it helps me to try and figure out what other time in my life I felt similar feelings and work out from there.

[Lonelyinmyheart]

LT, I'm sorry you're struggling with this. I don't know the full situation but on reading your T's response I wanted to offer one thought, which is I think it's good your T hasn't agreed to stand like you asked. I don't mean this to sound uncaring or anything like that, but the fact he has refused to do it means that you and him can have a conversation about it, if you're so willing. If he simply caved in and said yes, okay, I'll do it, the emotion will settle inside you, but then the opportunity for looking at what standing versus sitting means to you is less available once the feelings die down. In many cases tension in therapy offers the chance to really look at what is going on for you rather than covering it up with a sticking plaster until the next occasion presents itself (and it usually does). Personally I think like many others, your T sounds professional and good with boundaries, he is right that he doesn't have to change his behaviour for clients, but he is willing to discuss all this with you, which is essential. It will likely get messy but herein lies the opportunity for growth, albeit painful. I hope you and T can work it out.

Would you want him to stand up at the end knowing that he really doesn't want to?

To me, there is no emotional satisfaction in that.

Yes, they may give in and do it, but not because they want to but to appease the other person.

[StressedMess]

I feel like his shaking your hand from a seated position might be percieved as bad manners. I wouldn't feel unimportant or belittled if someone didn't stand when I stood, but I might find it odd and be puzzled. The conversation needs to be about the feelings you have, not about his actions. He doesn't have to explain why he won't stand, but maybe you can explain how it feels when he doesn't. Quite possibly it's a battle you can't win, but it might lead you to that young place and allow you to express those feelings.

[LonesomeTonight]

Thanks for all the input--I may reply later. But seeing T at 2:30 tomorrow. Was going to try to consult with backup T, but they both vetoed that idea. He said I could talk to someone who doesn't know him (funny, because just yesterday we briefly talked about how it was difficult having an intense session with backup T Thursday then not being able to see her again till he's away, and he said I could see her if I wanted before that, he's not possessive). But I'll see how it goes tomorrow. If it goes poorly, I will track down another T, at least to consult with.

[InnerPeace111]

Normally I’m not in the habit of giving advice or telling others what to do but here goes...

Trouble is brewing here, LT. Your T told you he doesn’t want to be micromanaged and T and backup T have already discussed and vetoed your request for the consultation.

My best advice:

1) No more demands about what T should or should not do for you. I’m guessing the micromanaging feels hurtful to him as it would to anyone else.

2) No more emails unless it’s for scheduling purposes. No therapeutic content in emails moving forward - discuss everything face to face in session.

3) Continue to discuss all of your feelings surrounding T’s behavior (and how it impacts you) in session while using “I” statements every time.

Disclaimer: I really have no idea whether my advice is what is best for you or not. These are just my particular thoughts at this moment in time. But maybe you will find something of value...something meaningful in what I’ve written here?

I admire your courage and perseverance! I wish you all the best as you move forward!

[stopdog]

I do think this triangulation thing is a pattern with you and therapists (I have no idea if it is a thing with you and real people or not). Have you ever considered seeing a completely new therapist who is not in some way connected with or knows the ones you are seeing now? I am a fan of having more than one therapist but it seems very messy to have them all tangled up with each other in these ways.

[snowangel17]

Sorry that you're hurting LT. I can understand you feeling 'scolded'. I do think that your T's email wasn't that bad though. I feel he was clear and professional and laid out his boundary. I can understand his objection to standing and his dislike of being micromanaged as when I read your email to me it sounded like that's what was you were trying to do. I don't think you were as you say I think it's about a lot of other things but I can see how it could come across like that to him. As another poster said he perhaps might be best to start exploring why you want him to stand, what does it mean to you for him to stand? What does it mean for you that he won't stand etc. I hope your session tomorrow goes okay and you resolve some things

[InkyBooky]

In my opinion, your T really missed an opportunity here. Your desire for him to stand (and be more mindful regarding his parting words) isn’t about the farewell greeting etiquette itself..... it’s about something much deeper in you. Yet he took your “demand” at face value. He really missed the mark. He should’ve immediately recognized this isn’t about him at all (or about sitting or standing). This is relational. This is deep and important. This is the core of your pain and vulnerability. He should be diving into the work with you right now...into YOUR work right now....not writing a semi-defensive email that’s really all about himself.

I want to say to him... “save the defensive foot-stomping for your own therapy, dude. This is about LT! THIS is the very work she needs to do. Help her look inside and get in touch with that pain and vulnerability- instead of shaming her and scolding her for expressing needs, wants, and desires. Of course you don’t have to stand if you don’t want to (insert eye roll)....it’s not even about that and it’s definitely not about YOU. Put your precious ego back in your pocket. Any decent therapist should immediately recognize the intense pain and fear behind LT’s “demand” and show some authentic empathy, interest, curiosity, support...and a desire/willingness to work WITH those feelings, explore those feelings, invite those feelings into the therapy room....not shame and push them away.”

Ok I’ll shut up now.

[JaneTennison1]

You are right InkyBooky it's easy to get caught up in the nature of the request rather than the reason behind it. I wonder if this T is capable of such therapy? He doesnt seem to be and it is doing you a disservice LT. Spending time teaching him rather than exploring your therapy.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by InkyBooky

In my opinion, your T really missed an opportunity here. Your desire for him to stand (and be more mindful regarding his parting words) isn’t about the farewell greeting etiquette itself..... it’s about something much deeper in you. Yet he took your “demand” at face value. He really missed the mark. He should’ve immediately recognized this isn’t about him at all (or about sitting or standing). This is relational. This is deep and important. This is the core of your pain and vulnerability. He should be diving into the work with you right now...into YOUR work right now....not writing a semi-defensive email that’s really all about himself.

I want to say to him... “save the defensive foot-stomping for your own therapy, dude. This is about LT! THIS is the very work she needs to do. Help her look inside and get in touch with that pain and vulnerability- instead of shaming her and scolding her for expressing needs, wants, and desires. Of course you don’t have to stand if you don’t want to (insert eye roll)....it’s not even about that and it’s definitely not about YOU. Put your precious ego back in your pocket. Any decent therapist should immediately recognize the intense pain and fear behind LT’s “demand” and show some authentic empathy, interest, curiosity, support...and a desire/willingness to work WITH those feelings, explore those feelings, invite those feelings into the therapy room....not shame and push them away.”

Ok I’ll shut up now.

Want to attend my session today and say this? I appreciate your comments (and everyone else's, too). I know this isn't really about standing, but he's making it all about that and about him. When I was sitting in session sobbing about this, it should have been obvious that something else was going on. And he should have explored that. I even said in my email that I'm sure this is partly about something else, but he ignored that part and just talked about being micromanaged and s***. I'm expressing a need/want--he needs to figure out what it's about. Even if he was willing to stand, he should examine what it means to me.

In Monday's session, I also mentioned how the backup T I saw last week put her arm on my back when I left, and I said it was nice, though I knew he wouldn't do that. T's response was, "Yeah, I'm not a touchy-feely person." When that was another opportunity for him to examine what that meant to me, why it had that affect. The same with her sitting down on the couch next to me to show me a graph on her phone related to what we were discussing. T asked, "Did it make you feel uncomfortable?" I said no, that it felt nice. Again, that could have been something to explore. Why did it have meaning to me? I feel he's just so caught up in his own head and his own feelings...

You mention the curiosity thing--that's actually something I was talking about with a friend yesterday--she wondered if he has the innate curiosity about people that a T should ideally have.

Honestly, I'm wondering if he's going through something himself now. I say this not to excuse his words or actions. But he hasn't been wearing his wedding ring for about 4 months. I get the sense he may no longer be playing the sport that he played professionally for years, or at least is no longer at a competitive level (I know he injured his back earlier in the year and still seems to have some issues with it--he uses a back support contraption on his chair now.) Maybe his marriage is fine and he's still playing, I don't know. But I think he needs to look at whatever he's bringing into the room as well. He just doesn't seem to do that (and doesn't have a supervisor--he meets with a consultation group 6 times a year, but I think that's it).

[Jersey 4]

I don’t think he is thinking in the capacity to explore those things with you,LT because he is not a Psychodynamic therapist. He’s obviously been trying to add some of that in with you here and there but as I mentioned in my PM to you I think at times he’s grasping at straws trying to figure it out. It’s simply not his area of expertise.

Feel free to let us know how it goes today.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Jersey 4

I don’t think he is thinking in the capacity to explore those things with you,LT because he is not a Psychodynamic therapist. He’s obviously been trying to add some of that in with you here and there but as I mentioned in my PM to you I think at times he’s grasping at straws trying to figure it out. It’s simply not his area of expertise.

Feel free to let us know how it goes today.

Yeah, I'm aware of that, and I keep thinking he gets it, but then realize maybe he doesn't. But he's useful for some other things, so I don't know...

And I'll let you guys know how it goes. Will try to reply to your PM later, too.

[Xynesthesia2]

This all is interesting because, from that email he sent you, I had the impression that he is indeed looking at his role in it pretty strongly - just won't share it with you. And now you start speculating that something might be off in his life.

Here is how I personally see it. If you want to use this situation and the comments here for your benefit, I would probably ask myself the question whether this pushing people's limits and wanting them to turn into something else (wasn't it the case with MC as well, who quite massively deviated from his professional role?) only happens in therapy for you or also a tendency in your everyday life. I guess stopdog was getting to something similar above. Because, as you can see from many comments here, people react to this pretty strongly and not necessarily in a positive way. Especially because it is quite subtle, often appealing and sophisticated, it can come across as a positive challenge... perhaps that's why you succeed... but people will inevitably have limits, therapists or not. Unlike MC in the past, this T makes it clear where his limits are when they are reached, and will take responsibility for it ("it is not about you"). What else would you like him to do? To satisfy your wishes, of course... but, my feeling is that if you reach a certain level with the demands, people will likely start reacting the exact opposite way and distance themselves further, and you will remain even more dissatisfied with the reactions deep down and feel hurt. Dunno, just something to maybe consider. Again, if it only happens in therapy, it may not be too important.

On seeing him and another T in parallel - I am also often positive about juggling them and using each for what they are most suitable/useful. In your case though, I am not so sure... I could see it turning into a situation where you have one main T and another one to provide therapy about what's less satisfying for you about the main T... Spend a lot of money on that, instead of the things that are relevant to your normal life and relationships. Just my opinion, I am sure many others will see it differently.

[Jersey 4]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Yeah, I'm aware of that, and I keep thinking he gets it, but then realize maybe he doesn't. But he's useful for some other things, so I don't know...

And I'll let you guys know how it goes. Will try to reply to your PM later, too.

He probably really doesn’t get it..and I think with some things he’s tried to get it but now he’s just kind of like...no...this is my stance. We can work through what’s going on for you, but this is my stance..

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2

This all is interesting because, from that email he sent you, I had the impression that he is indeed looking at his role in it pretty strongly - just won't share it with you. And now you start speculating that something might be off in his life.

Here is how I personally see it. If you want to use this situation and the comments here for your benefit, I would probably ask myself the question whether this pushing people's limits and wanting them to turn into something else (wasn't it the case with MC as well, who quite massively deviated from his professional role?) only happens in therapy for you or also a tendency in your everyday life. I guess stopdog was getting to something similar above. Because, as you can see from many comments here, people react to this pretty strongly and not necessarily in a positive way. Especially because it is quite subtle, often appealing and sophisticated, it can come across as a positive challenge... perhaps that's why you succeed... but people will inevitably have limits, therapists or not. Unlike MC in the past, this T makes it clear where his limits are when they are reached, and will take responsibility for it ("it is not about you"). What else would you like him to do? To satisfy your wishes, of course... but, my feeling is that if you reach a certain level with the demands, people will likely start reacting the exact opposite way and distance themselves further, and you will remain even more dissatisfied with the reactions deep down and feel hurt. Dunno, just something to maybe consider. Again, if it only happens in therapy, it may not be too important.

On seeing him and another T in parallel - I am also often positive about juggling them and using each for what they are most suitable/useful. In your case though, I am not so sure... I could see it turning into a situation where you have one main T and another one to provide therapy about what's less satisfying for you about the main T... Spend a lot of money on that, instead of the things that are relevant to your normal life and relationships. Just my opinion, I am sure many others will see it differently.

I think I to some extent do this with other people in my life as well, though I think I do it a bit less often now. Like with friends, I might tell them something about myself that they could see as a negative (like being unfaithful to my H 3 years ago) and see if they'll still accept me. So another form of testing. T has made me more aware of how I do this in real life and talked about how I don't have to tell everyone everything. And that includes him. So where with ex-MC, if, say, I googled and found his wife, I'd feel this need to go confess it to him to make sure it's still acceptable. Whereas with T, I did this in the beginning, but now I usually don't bother telling him about things like that. Because why does he need to know? (I did tell him about his wife posting in the autism group I'm in, but that wasn't me googling, that just showed up, so it wasn't a guilt absolution thing).

So I definitely think it's a pattern I need to do more work on. I think with T--and this was a thing with ex-MC, too, due to the nature of the relationship--it's like I try to get evidence of caring from him. He's not the most demonstrative, so I try to get something from him in email. And then I'll get something from him, maybe he'll seem particularly caring in session or an email, so I want to have that again. But then maybe I need to push for it a little more.

Honestly, the stuff with standing and what he says at the end--that really started as more of a conversation of what would make it easier for me when I leave session. We also talked about my paying at the beginning instead, because it feels like a weird ending--disconnection and underlining the fact that it's a business relationship--and then also makes what he says/does after I pay and before I walk out the door feel more important. So I was saying how it bothered me that he never stood, and maybe that would help. And then he just got so defensive about that in session, that it became kind of a mess. And I tried talking about what he says right before I leave, and that was a weird conversation, too, with his also getting defensive and saying he didn't want to have to think about it that much. But it's not like he offered up any other suggestions for making the ending easier. He made it about him.

And in session, with the standing, he didn't say that he had personal reasons for not doing it. He said, "I'd have to stand up then sit right back down again at my desk. I'm not changing my routine." Had he said the "I have personal reasons for it, it's not about you" in session like he said in the email, I'd have likely taken it differently. But instead it just felt like he couldn't be bothered. Which is different than if say, I don't know, it would bother his back--I'm not insisting on knowing the reasons, just what he actually said to me seemed defensive. When I presented it as "This is something that's bothered me the whole time and it feels so silly and stupid, but..." I really didn't expect it to turn into this big thing at all... then again, that seems like how any of our ruptures start, with me saying or asking something that I expect to be an easy 1-minute conversation then blows up.

As for the stuff off in his life, I've felt that for a while now, not just in reaction to this. He's seemed a bit different for a while now, like kind of sad. Though toward me, it seemed to have been more in the other direction, that he seemed more gentle and caring toward me. So this just felt jarring compared to how he had been.

[ArtleyWilkins]

You do have a tendency to get hung up on the trees and lose the forest.

You know this isn't about standing, etc., so stop talking about standing. Talk about your feelings. Talk about where this is coming from. It isn't about your T. That's his point.

You are internally uncomfortable about this, but it isn't about what your therapist is or isn't doing. He changing his behavior isn't going to change what is really going on with you internally, so there is really no benefit to you if he changes that behavior; your internal issues will still be there, just masked because you managed to get him to somehow "fix" your discomfort, but it is only a temporary fix.

Other people can't and shouldn't have to try to do gymnastics around us because of our own internal issues. It's an exercise in futility. It is a form of testing as you mentioned before.

Get focused on the forest again (the bigger picture). All these little issues about your therapists are just avoiding the bigger issues about yourself.

[Xynesthesia2]

It is indeed a bit odd for a T not to stand up at the end of session, at least based on my experiences with them. I never even thought about this before your post and the conversations here that followed and I assume it would not bother me whatever they do at the end of session, but virtually all of the Ts I have ever had a session with (the two I saw longer-term and the others I interviewed) always stood up at the end and walked with me to the door. May be something they learn in school, given that it is definitely not automatic human behavior. It felt natural when my Ts did it, but now thinking about it more, it's not what professionals do all the time in meetings, including myself. In most of the work meetings I attend in someone's office and when others come to see me in mine, we most frequently just thank the other person, say goodbye or something else polite, then turn to our computers to continue working while someone is leaving. So I do not believe standing up is the automatic professional behavior but, again now thinking about it... it does transmit more attention, respect and maybe even interest. I can also easily imagine that if you were not treated this way often in your life (whether in childhood or later), it might generate this need and sensitivity to it. Perhaps that's really all about it?

From all that you have shared over time about this T, I do have a very strong impression that he likes to behave and work by his personal code more than constantly adapting a lot to each client's needs - you see, one reason I like him, because I am that way myself and also love autonomy and self-directedness in others. But you certainly desire something else and probably why you keep testing/pushing him? Now I just remembered something you shared previously about your husband, your Ts perception of him... when he said something along the lines of your H having some autistic traits (hope I recall correctly)... So perhaps you are actually drawn to people that are a bit selfish and don't shower you with the attention and care of your imagination so much? But then try to get it anyway? There is also the thing you shared previously of your having a strong patterns related to male "authority figures". If I had to make a guess without knowing anything, perhaps you did not receive the attention and respect (or what you see as such) early on from those kinds of people and now you want to correct it with Ts?

You might be right that your request pushed some buttons in your T and he overreacted a bit, but here comes what I said before about the comments here: I think many people reacted similarly (myself included). A T could certainly make more efforts to not let that show but, you see, by blowing it up, you may actually learn something more useful than simply having the desire satisfied. If I were him, I would probably reconsider the request though after a discussion as it does make sense and would probably improve his professional attitude. I will now think about this myself when I have meetings with people (at least more formal meetings), so thanks for bringing it up, I've learned something cool from it! I actually do think it can make a difference. But I also agree with Artley above that it is useful for you to look at the larger picture, which you have already started when considering your behavior with other people. I would probably follow up that track more rather than focusing on the Ts defensiveness, as this type of defensiveness is something you can certainly expect from many.

[kaleidoscopeheart]

You mentioned that T had missed his cue a few times for things that he should have explored further. I have a bad habit of doing that with my T as well and it is sooooo frustrating. Would it be possible to hit the pause button when you are in that moment and just tell him that it maybe isn't about the standing or the words he uses or whatever, that its about something else and you want his help exploring where that feeling is coming from? T's aren't mind readers and I have found that expecting them to read between the lines 100% of the time mean that there are bound to be misunderstandings.... Good luck at your appointment today. I hope it goes well!