[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by nottrustin

Are you looking for validation from all these new Ts that current T is bad for you. I get the impression you you feel it is not working with him the way you want it to but want the validation from other Ts before you make a break from him. I know I could be way off base, though

Well, the one I saw yesterday, she was intended as a consultation specifically about my T. Whereas the others are potential new T's. The only reason I mentioned conflicts with current T to the guy I'm seeing Wednesday is because he asked the usual "Why are you seeking therapy?" question. And I said I was seeing a T and thought it was time for a change. He asked why, and I said ongoing conflicts.

When I meet with him Wednesday, my intention is to see if he's someone I could see working with longer-term. Since I've had lots of depression issues lately, I'm a bit worried about just terminating with my T without someone else in place to go to. And I feel I need to meet with someone to really get a sense of whether I could and would want to work with them (15-minute phone call helped, but the in person will tell more). K, who I saw yesterday, said I could see her as a bridge in between, which is good to know.

Also, I have a phone consult Tuesday with a female T, and, depending on how that goes, might schedule something with her for the following week (I'm trying to not overwhelm myself with meeting multiple new T's in one week.)

[stopdog]

I agree with those who suggest focusing on why you hired a therapist rather than on the current conflict with the therapist you have. Even the question why are you hiring a therapist could be answered about your underlying causes (depression for example - I am wanting to try to therapy to help with X rather than I am looking for a new therapist because I think the one I see now sucks) rather than the current therapist.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by WarmFuzzySocks

LT, though I am lifting it out of context, I think your T is right about one thing: Leave or don’’t leave.

Either he’’s not the t for you, and it is time to find a new t who can help you.
Or you’re bumping up against some scary hard boundary stuff you’d benefit from working through with him.

I don’’t know the right answer to that for you. But this time, effort, energy focused on stay-go, and the search for a new t while you’’re still seeing him doesn’t help you do either, it just keeps you stuck in triangulation and focused away from the issues that brought you into therapy.

And a because this is just hard stuff.

This is where I keep being unsure. Is it that I don't want to deal with the boundary stuff and with his being honest with me about his reactions to things I say? I feel kept seeing him after various other conflicts because I kept thinking "It's about what I need, not what I want." And that maybe I needed to face those hard truths.

But I also am starting to think that maybe I've learned all I can from him (and I have learned quite a bit). That I've gone as far as I can with him, at least for right now. That maybe I just need a different approach. Which is why in my searches, I've been looking for psychodynamic, humanistic, and/or attachment-based.

I want someone who is comfortable working with transference, who will explore what's going on with me without making it all about them. Which is what I feel like T is doing, focusing on his reactions instead of what's behind what I'm saying and why. Whereas ex-MC, who was psychodynamically trained, would tie things back into childhood and say things like testing him are natural. And not get all bent out of shape about it. I want a T who can handle me working through something with them. I don't feel like my current T can do that.

I am considering just going in Monday and saying I need to take a break (vs. terminating), leaving it open-ended (he's said before if I want to see another T for a while, I can always come back--want to make sure that's still true).

And thanks for the hugs.

[susannahsays]

I concur with the suggestions to focus on what brings you to therapy, rather than what brings you away from your current therapist, when meeting with these potential therapists.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I agree with those who suggest focussing on why you hired a therapist rather than on the current conflict with the therapist you have. Even the question why are you hiring a therapist could be answered about your underlying causes (depression for example - I am wanting to try to therapy to help with X rather than I am looking for a new therapist because I think the one I see now sucks) rather than the current therapist.

Oh, I answered with that stuff (depression, anxiety, relationship issues, attachment issues), too, because he asked about what I was looking for from therapy. But I also wanted to be upfront that I am currently seeing someone. He asked about termination with T, and I said I wanted to have someone in place, then I'd terminate, and he was good with that. That I wouldn't keep seeing both. I just want to meet this guy and perhaps the woman, too, in person before committing to either of them.

[susannahsays]

Can you explain a little bit more about what you mean about him making it all about him (if you want)? That's something I've been kind of confused about. Not disagreeing, I'm just missing it.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

Can you explain a little bit more about what you mean about him making it all about him (if you want)? That's something I've been kind of confused about. Not disagreeing, I'm just missing it.

Sure, here's a few recent examples (I know others might disagree with these being about him):

--His talking about feeling "trapped" into replying to me a couple Fridays ago when I was in a bad place
--His saying he was worried about liability and admitting how that was selfish of him
--His saying how he doesn't like to be micromanaged or controlled. And then going on (in email) about how he's the same way in his outside life and that he also doesn't expect other people to do something just because he asks them to (I don't care what he does in his real life).

--His talking about how it felt manipulative that I said maybe I needed a different T
--His saying it would be a problem if his backup T "stole" me from him. Then later, when I asked him to clarify, he said it wouldn't cause problems between me and him but between him and her. Which, yeah, I don't care.

--His saying how he spent much more than 30 minutes on my emails, but he's only going to charge me for that amount of time because he thinks of the customer at times.
--(perhaps a less good example) His saying the other day that lately I just keep pushing him to show he cares. Which is part of what's behind his frustration. I said I imagined it was partly related to his being away a bunch, and he said, "I'm sure it is," but then he didn't explore that at all with me.
--Back with the stone thing, when he was superfocused on his reaction to it, not mine

With ex-MC, if I had some reaction to him, he often would tie it into something from my childhood. He'd look at what was going on with it. Until what happened at the very end, he didn't share how he was personally reacting to things (even then he didn't fully share). He had his faults, but he kept things in a therapeutic direction and kept his emotions out of the therapy room. Which I think is related to his psychodynamic training maybe?

[Lonelyinmyheart]

He is sharing a lot of his emotions and responses, I would struggle with that. I have had Ts in the past who weren't dissimilar actually in the kind of responses they gave me, and I found myself becoming more and more distressed and pulled into a very difficult dynamic as a result. I had a T who told me she felt controlled by me because I sent a text when I was upset, and stuff like that. And each time I tried to sort it, it ended up more distressing and actually rather like my difficult marriage in a lot of ways. I know that my T was triggered because she was having strong counter transference feelings towards me in wanting to look after me as a child (this was obvious to me as time went on) which as a T she knew she couldn't, but we went deeply into what felt like a power struggle because we were battling each other emotionally. So I think I get it.. It sounds to me like your T is absolutely having emotional reactions to you, he's triggered and doesn't know how to deal with the situation effectively in a way that doesn't worsen things for you. There is a place for a T to disclose their emotions and be real, it's good sometimes to do that, but if the T is triggered, that is just a receipe for disaster.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I want someone who is comfortable working with transference, who will explore what's going on with me without making it all about them. Which is what I feel like T is doing, focusing on his reactions instead of what's behind what I'm saying and why. Whereas ex-MC, who was psychodynamically trained, would tie things back into childhood and say things like testing him are natural. And not get all bent out of shape about it. I want a T who can handle me working through something with them. I don't feel like my current T can do that.

LT—actually I think your therapist HAS kept his feelings out of it quite a lot even though, yeah, you’ve been testing him. But just because a therapist reacts to something you do or say doesn’t make it countertransference or them putting their feelings into it. You know, you want him to say he cares. Wouldn’t that be putting his feelings into it? Why is that okay and not “I felt manipulated”?

(ETA: none of the examples you gave in response to susannah strike me as him putting his emotions into it, making it all about him, or countertransference.)

As for the childhood stuff, you can talk the talk, but at some point you have to walk the walk. You have behaviors you want to change, yes. And you want to understand why you do them, okay. But it often seems for you the understanding is the end goal. And this understanding never goes very deep as far as I can tell, it’s like “here’s another incident from my childhood that might explain x.” A catalog like that stops helping after a certain point because you can only deal with the present.

This guy is a sports psychologist. He expects doing at some point—not necessarily succeeding, but doing. He wouldn’t have an athlete client with whom he’d talk about how their childhood makes them freeze up in front of a stadium, he’d work with them on strategies for dealing with it.

A lot of us here are not super fans of Dr. T. I think our concern is if you leave him it should be for the right reasons, not because he’s expressing some reactions to your behavior that are hard to hear. (That’s something to learn from him right there: why did he feel manipulated and is there anything you could change, because other people might react the same way?) Not just to start the same cycle over with another therapist. You may tell them you’re there for depression, but if you spend a lot of time going into details about Dr. T, so much so someone says what the hell?, what are you really there for?

Listen, it’s tough, and I feel for you, because obviously all this is terribly painful. I would just encourage you to really examine your role in your therapeutic relationship as well as his.

[LonesomeTonight]

@@, this is mostly in reply to your post: Something K brought up yesterday is she gets the sense I'm playing out something from childhood with T, like about one or both of my parents. I said most likely my father, because he didn't really show emotion or affection (he does more now, actually). And I've said to T numerous times that I think x reaction I'm having is not just about him, but it's about something from childhood. But he never seems to agree with that. He'll say that no, he does think it's about him. So, it's like I want to explore those angles, but he doesn't seem to want to. I know it's my therapy. But if he doesn't seem open to tying in my reactions in the present with stuff from my past, it makes it difficult to explore with him. I guess that's part of what I meant about him making it about him. Rather than thinking, for example, "Hm, LT is reacting really strongly to the wanting me to stand thing--I imagine there's something else going on there." And asking me about it. But instead, even when I say "I think it's about other stuff, too," he'll continue to go on about how it affected him and how he thinks it's just about his being on vacation or my wanting more control of him. Even though I say, "No, it's more than that." I think that's what's become particularly frustrating lately. I *do* want to do that work. I want to figure out what's going on with my reactions to him and other people. But if he doesn't seem to want to go along with it, it becomes very difficult to work on it with him.

And that's part of why I think I need a different T with a different orientation, to be able to work on stuff like that. For the T to have insights about things that maybe I'm missing.

As for strategies, he's done a little bit of that, but then just keeps repeating the same ones (exercise, meditation, hobbies like painting, reaching out to other people in my social network). And I use them, some quite a bit. But some of them can only go so far. I'm just wondering if I've exhausted his "bag of tricks" (he's said each T only has so much in their bag of tricks). I feel stuck, and it seems like he feels stuck, and I don't know where to go from here (I suppose I could say that line to him, couldn't I?) I think I need a new perspective, a different voice.

So, it's really not just all about he's telling me things I don't want to hear. For a long time, even though many were saying I should leave him and I was having doubts, I kept having this feeling of "I need to see this through." But, pardon my awful grammatical construction here, I'm starting to wonder: What am I trying to see through *to* with him? And is he the one to help me get there? I think I just need to try someone else on for a bit, see what it feels like (not the one I saw yesterday--it's possible I could use her to help transition if I have trouble finding someone with whom I feel comfortable, but I don't see her as a long-term therapist for me). I'm sick of the conflicts with T. They're often causing more stress and anguish in my life than what's going on in my actual life. And I don't see how that's ultimately helping me.

[susannahsays]

My impression is that working with transference is not only about discussing the there and then but also the here and now - which can involve therapist disclosures of their reactions to your transference (whether you want to classify this as countertransference or not). I do think insight based on the past can be helpful, but only if it's applied to the present. Otherwise, what's the point?

I think you've said many times when you have a reaction that it's not really about him, it's about something in your past. I would try reframing this as it's about you and the way you see and relate to things. Because just saying it's about the past seems to minimize that whatever dynamic happened then is something that is being reenacted in the here and now.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Lonelyinmyheart

He is sharing a lot of his emotions and responses, I would struggle with that. I have had Ts in the past who weren't dissimilar actually in the kind of responses they gave me, and I found myself becoming more and more distressed and pulled into a very difficult dynamic as a result. I had a T who told me she felt controlled by me because I sent a text when I was upset, and stuff like that. And each time I tried to sort it, it ended up more distressing and actually rather like my difficult marriage in a lot of ways. I know that my T was triggered because she was having strong counter transference feelings towards me in wanting to look after me as a child (this was obvious to me as time went on) which as a T she knew she couldn't, but we went deeply into what felt like a power struggle because we were battling each other emotionally. So I think I get it.. It sounds to me like your T is absolutely having emotional reactions to you, he's triggered and doesn't know how to deal with the situation effectively in a way that doesn't worsen things for you. There is a place for a T to disclose their emotions and be real, it's good sometimes to do that, but if the T is triggered, that is just a receipe for disaster.

Thanks, Lonely. Yeah, a power struggle is what this feels like at times. I'm not normally like this with people. For a while, I thought maybe it was good that he was drawing stuff out of me. But it's starting to feel almost...toxic or something. Like we both keep triggering each other.

T has told me he shares his feelings with me more than with his other clients because he knows I'll wonder what's going on in his head. And he doesn't want me to wonder or try to guess. But as I said Tuesday, the thing is, what's actually been in his head lately has been worse than I'd have imagined it being. Which then makes me worry what everyone else in my life is actually thinking of me (I do check in with some of them, like my H). He also told me somewhat recently how he imagines my H must be frustrated with me about a certain issue. So then I got all stressed about that, finally asked my H, and he said that T was wrong, he isn't feeling that at all (H was annoyed with T when I told him he'd suggested it). So he caused me unnecessary stress. And it's not the first time something like that has happened.

[Lonelyinmyheart]

It does sound really hard LT. I don't feel it is right for a T to say that about your H or indeed anyone, as it's about you in the room with him, no one else. I can see what you're saying before that he makes a lot of stuff about him. Maybe it was his frustration that he was projecting onto H? I can only say what it sounds like from my perspective and obviously I don't really know, but I do know what it's like to work with a T where you feel completely stuck in a dynamic that sucks you in deeper and deeper. In my case, trusting my intuition/gut feeling was the right thing to do - I sensed I'd gone as far as I could with a T, and that turned out to be correct. I know it's hard for many people in therapy to trust themselves though due to trauma etc. If your T is able to contain your anxieties that would be good, but it seems you don't feel reassured by anything he says and even feel he makes things worse. My current T is really excellent at containing the catastrophic stuff that sometimes goes through my head, and the difference to me is astounding. She doesn't get drawn into anything, but is by the same token deeply empathic. Having gone through intense battles with past Ts, it really does make a difference. There are two of you in this, and yes you're the one having the therapy, but T has his own issues as well, and it does seem that they are playing a part in all this. I think you are wise to seek out consultations with other Ts, if only to have a break and a breather.

I feel disorientated, annoyed and weighed down when I read about these different therapists with whom you are consulting/working. It seems that you are juggling different reasons (even potential reasons) for these explorations which are set alongside the different (often conflicting) opinions posted here. It all sounds full and busy, so much chatter. Can you imagine what feelings you might have and what choices you might be making without all this external chatter from others (including those whom you invite to speak)? I am losing a sense of where you are.

[nottrustin]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Sure, here's a few recent examples (I know others might disagree with these being about him):

--His talking about feeling "trapped" into replying to me a couple Fridays ago when I was in a bad place
--His saying he was worried about liability and admitting how that was selfish of him
--His saying how he doesn't like to be micromanaged or controlled. And then going on (in email) about how he's the same way in his outside life and that he also doesn't expect other people to do something just because he asks them to (I don't care what he does in his real life).

--His talking about how it felt manipulative that I said maybe I needed a different T
--His saying it would be a problem if his backup T "stole" me from him. Then later, when I asked him to clarify, he said it wouldn't cause problems between me and him but between him and her. Which, yeah, I don't care.

--His saying how he spent much more than 30 minutes on my emails, but he's only going to charge me for that amount of time because he thinks of the customer at times.
--(perhaps a less good example) His saying the other day that lately I just keep pushing him to show he cares. Which is part of what's behind his frustration. I said I imagined it was partly related to his being away a bunch, and he said, "I'm sure it is," but then he didn't explore that at all with me.
--Back with the stone thing, when he was superfocused on his reaction to it, not mine

With ex-MC, if I had some reaction to him, he often would tie it into something from my childhood. He'd look at what was going on with it. Until what happened at the very end, he didn't share how he was personally reacting to things (even then he didn't fully share). He had his faults, but he kept things in a therapeutic direction and kept his emotions out of the therapy room. Which I think is related to his psychodynamic training maybe?

but if he doesn't share what he is thinking you keep pushing until he does. In my experience therapists do feel frustrated and may even get upset but the deal with it on their own and keep it out of the therapy room. You seem to push and push because you don't take no for an answer and have a need to know.

[Amyjay]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Sure, here's a few recent examples (I know others might disagree with these being about him):

--His talking about feeling "trapped" into replying to me a couple Fridays ago when I was in a bad place
--His saying he was worried about liability and admitting how that was selfish of him
--His saying how he doesn't like to be micromanaged or controlled. And then going on (in email) about how he's the same way in his outside life and that he also doesn't expect other people to do something just because he asks them to (I don't care what he does in his real life).

--His talking about how it felt manipulative that I said maybe I needed a different T
--His saying it would be a problem if his backup T "stole" me from him. Then later, when I asked him to clarify, he said it wouldn't cause problems between me and him but between him and her. Which, yeah, I don't care.

--His saying how he spent much more than 30 minutes on my emails, but he's only going to charge me for that amount of time because he thinks of the customer at times.
--(perhaps a less good example) His saying the other day that lately I just keep pushing him to show he cares. Which is part of what's behind his frustration. I said I imagined it was partly related to his being away a bunch, and he said, "I'm sure it is," but then he didn't explore that at all with me.
--Back with the stone thing, when he was superfocused on his reaction to it, not mine

With ex-MC, if I had some reaction to him, he often would tie it into something from my childhood. He'd look at what was going on with it. Until what happened at the very end, he didn't share how he was personally reacting to things (even then he didn't fully share). He had his faults, but he kept things in a therapeutic direction and kept his emotions out of the therapy room. Which I think is related to his psychodynamic training maybe?

I feel like those things are all reasonable things for him to reflect back to you about how he feels within the therapeutic relationship. I see them all as valuable - and perhaps even necessary - feedback. Therapeutic relationships tend to reflect our relationships in everyday life, and in most of these examples here he is letting you know how he feels in response to the way you relate to him. I see that as a valuable part of the therapy rather than a fault on his part.

I also think it's important to focus on the here and now aspect of the therapeutic relationship rather than *just* relate it to the past. Both are important. But to be honest, if he was feeling manipulated, pushed, micromanaged and controlled (which I think are reasonable responses to some of the pushing that you do) it's important for that to be fed back to you.
On the flip side... T cares for you and I think - if you are willing to take that risk - you and him can work through this together and come out stronger on the other side. T is most likely quite capable of feeling those things he shared with you AND still feel care for you, want to work with you, and hold you in positive regard.
I think you will be hurting yourself if you walk away from him now. Here is your chance to work through these patterns of relating to others with someone who cares deeply about you and is on your side... even when working through the hard stuff.
I really hope you don't walk away from this core conflict. You will be doing yourself a great disservice.

[DP_2017]

We've talked quite a bit about this, I still support this break and think it will be very good for you, at least for a bit.

I agree with the other posts about the past stuff.... the thing is.... I think you do understand your past quite a bit, you seem to often have a good reason why things are as they are. You can't change the past, no matter how much you analyze it. You can however, change the present and the future. That's where the you might want to try to shift the focus. I had a pretty crap past as well, many of us here did.... but I feel amazingly hopeful about my future. I can't go back and make my parents raise me better or differently but I can just decide that it's gonna be about me from here on out and focus on what I need going forward. That could help you as well.

I wish you luck with the new T Wed and don't let Dr T make you "cave" again this week. A break isn't permanent, it might really help both of you to take some time apart.

[JaneTennison1]

What would happen if, instead of talking about T and focusing on T, you just went into a session and talked about the crap that is behind it all? You just put s o much energy into fighting and trying to get him to be perfect I wonder what would happen if you focused that energy on your childhood issues or quitting drinking?

I do it too, try and find away to "prove" T is not trustworthy so I don't have to talk about this stuff. How much of it is wrong T and how much is avoidance? If you start with a new T will you just repeat this cycle?

I also wonder of all the things you cite with T talking about his feeling or response, how much was a response to what you have asked or discussed? Yes he is behaving imperfectly but how long do you search for the "perfect" T to avoid the issues you are having?

[unaluna]

jane

Like the poor carpenter blames his tools. My last t wasnt perfect by a long shot; i just decided i could and would work with him.

Isnt that life in general? Our neighbors are nightmares. Our coworkers are idiots. Our family members range from slightly harmful to literally murderous. Its a wonder we survive at all.

[LonesomeTonight]

Quick update that I'm now on an indefinite break from T. Today's session didn't go so well. Including things like his saying that I'm either going to hit up against another T's boundaries like I did with him or else end up in a boundary-blurring relationship like with ex-MC. And him saying that it seems I think he's cruel in what he says to me. I said I've never used that word, that he's projecting on me (turning tables a bit there...because he also said today that I was projecting and it bothered him). He just seemed very defensive. And I really don't see a way forward right now (told him that). Told him to take good care of his fish. I'm to contact him if I want to come back or just to come in to discuss things further. Gave back the stone, too, which was a bit difficult (he said I could just put it on table beside me). His parting words were "Good luck" and "Be well." Perhaps more later.

Please, I request in your responses to this post to try to be kind to me and not agree with him that I'm doomed in therapy (even if that's what you think). I think there has to be a middle ground, with a T who is willing to express caring while also holding good boundaries. I've read about such T's on here, so it's not just a myth! I feel T and ex-MC are sort of polar opposites in that, and there's a huge middle ground in between.

[Lonelyinmyheart]

I'm so sorry LT. You've got every right to look for someone else who might suit you better. Yes there's a fine line between not wanting to repeat the same pattern with every t you meet but you also have the right to seek someone who is perhaps more forthcoming with empathy, if you need that. If you are repeating a pattern then I will think that will become obvious in time but you seem really aware and sure about what you're doing and I think that says a lot in itself. There's nothing wrong with looking around and it sounds like this ts door is always open if you feel you want to return any point.

[LostOnTheTrail]

I'm sorry, LT...it all sounds very hard.

[SlumberKitty]

HUGS LT. I'm so sorry your session didn't go well and that you are on an indefinte break from T. I do know that there are good therapists out there, that express caring and have good boundaries. I know because my former T was one. They are hard to find I think. But it can be well worth it if you do find one. You can always PM me if you want to talk. HUGS Kit

[Lemoncake]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Please, I request in your responses to this post to try to be kind to me and not agree with him that I'm doomed in therapy (even if that's what you think). I think there has to be a middle ground, with a T who is willing to express caring while also holding good boundaries. I've read about such T's on here, so it's not just a myth! I feel T and ex-MC are sort of polar opposites in that, and there's a huge middle ground in between.

Sending you huge hugs LT. That does sound like a very painful session.

I don't think your doomed in therapy.

I hope you establish a therapeutic relationship with someone who welcomes your projections because they can be such a valuable part of the work.