[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks for the comments. Went well with K today, she was very validating. She even said, "What the h*ll?" when I shared something he said Tuesday--the thing about, "I'm just one of millions of people in the world--why does my opinion matter so much to you?" After the WTH, K said, "Because he's your therapist." She seems to think I need to leave, thinks maybe I've outgrown him. She was really bothered by some of what he said in his email reply to me a couple Fridays ago when I was in a bad place. And by some other stuff he's said/done. And I'd mentioned liking hearing "take care" at the end, and she said that to me. She was mystified by his occasional "Enjoy!" as his parting words. She said she's open to working with me longer-term if I want or to be a bridge between T and who I do end up working with. That I could take my time deciding, and she was fine either way. Much different from T's recent "Leave or don't leave."

Not to burst your bubble, but I see red flags. She’s interfering in an existing therapy relationship. She’s talking to you more like a friend (or a poster on PC!) than a professional.

I mean, Info said not a negative word about No. 3 for months (actually over a year). Nor a positive one, either, but her neutrality while being supportive turned out to be enormously helpful, because her not just backing me up helped me see more clearly and reflect on where things went wrong between me and 3 and my role in them—which meant I could grow and start to move on.

That’s not the only approach, of course, and you might find a different one beneficial. Good luck.

[ArtleyWilkins]

I agree. I smell trouble with this one. She is displaying a lack of professional boundaries that you will feed right into you to your detriment.

[susannahsays]

I have to agree. I wasn't sure how to phrase things without it sounding like a defense of Dr. T, but @@ put it perfectly. I would add that it makes me uneasy because it sounds like she was a bit over the top in the way she reacted. I don't mean she overreacted exactly, but to me, her using "what the hell" and doing lots of body language to convey her outrage feels... idk... kind of fake and manipulative. Maybe not intentionally, I don't know. But it kind of reminds me of how some therapists love bomb their clients.

Call me a cynic, but I would be skeptical of a therapist who doesn't even know me being outwardly anything other than curious and maybe sympathetic about the stuff you mentioned.

[Amyjay]

I don't know, LT. I guess my overall impression is that you've come up across some boundaries with T and he is being firm with them, and you're reacting to that. T has always been on "your side". He hasn't always said or done things you have particularly wanted him to have said or done, but he has more than met you in the middle on most things. I see far more value in working through these things with T who absolutely does care for you, rather than avoiding the conflict and beginning to see someone who agrees with your viewpoint more. I don't see how there can be personal growth or learning from that option.
You have a solid relationship with T. It isn't a "blow in the wind" thing. He has almost consistently been there for you when you have needed him. Far, far more than most other therapists would be. Conflicts happen in all relationships. Intense conflicts happen in all relationships. He absolutely does care for you, even though he makes mistakes some times. Not that my opinion matters, but I think you would be making a dreadful mistake in leaving him, and are making one even in triangulating the relationship by consulting another one.

[stopdog]

I greatly dislike the current male therapist as he is described, but I am not certain you are interpreting this new therapist's reactions correctly. I think trying a new one for a while might help you see if it is a style change that might help, but I would be cautious in interpreting what this new one thinks. I remember you went through a period with the current male therapist where you were interpreting every reaction he had as agreeing with how you saw the marriage counselor and your criticism of the marriage counselor and now you are doing the same thing with this woman. It is just how I see it.

[JaneTennison1]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I greatly dislike the current male therapist as he is described, but I am not certain you are interpreting this new therapist's reactions correctly. I think trying a new one for a while might help you see if it is a style change that might help, but I would be cautious in interpreting what this new one thinks. I think you went through a period with the current male therapist where you were interpreting every reaction he had as agreeing about how you saw the marriage counselor and your criticism of him and now you are doing the same thing with this woman. It is just how I see it.

Agreed, there is an element of triangulation in most of the therapy relationships you describe, you and T against MC, you and K against T, what if it was just you and you didn't blame T for what he "should or shouldn't" do but instead took some of it on?

Don't get me wrong, you know I don't have good thoughts about T and haven't since....the beginning? Everything you say, every decision, like drinking or not, is related to another person and not just related to you. Your drinking is due to a feeling in you, not a responsibility of T.

I do agree that you seem to need ssomeone more gentle in your life than exists currently, but that does not mean taking sides.

My current T has not judged ex T 1 or given her opinion, I can tell some times she does not agree with everything, but her refusal to join me and hate on EX T 1 gave me space to examine everything.

She did eventually admit that she did not agree with Ex T 2 and was glad the complaints board also saw things that way, but that was after close to a year.

So your view may be different but I do wonder if it is best to keep looking. Validation is nice but long term it may not provoke the changes you need.After all, how can you ever examine your part in all this when someone is so willing to blame T with you?

[LonesomeTonight]

Will reply more later, but there is something stopping me from making another appointment with the T I saw today. And something when I saw her 7 months ago, too--at the time, she did seem too "friend-like." I partly saw her this time so that I wouldn't have to go through a whole intake/history thing with a new T just to talk about my current T. I am seeing someone new next week, plus have a phone consult set with another T. I'm mostly trying to use the T I saw today to help me step away from my current T. While the others I've contacted...I'm hoping one of them could become longer-term. I'm doing a regular intake session with "M" next week--I told him in the phone consult that I'd had lots of conflicts with current T lately. But I want to evaluate him more as: Could I see him being a therapist for me going forward? Same with the woman (now it's complicated, because her first initial, K, is the same as who I saw today...) All the people I've contacted (including one I haven't heard back from and one who isn't available until next month) have different therapeutic orientations than current T. I think I just need a change for a bit. Maybe I can eventually go back to T. But what's going on right now between us isn't working and isn't helping. So, I could keep beating my head against a wall, or I could step back and look elsewhere.

[nottrustin]

Are you looking for validation from all these new Ts that current T is bad for you. I get the impression you you feel it is not working with him the way you want it to but want the validation from other Ts before you make a break from him. I know I could be way off base, though

[zoiecat]

I agree with the others. I am not judging but simply observing. It appears that your ruptures almost always happen when your T does not say or do what you want him too. There are then extra sessions where it appears that you try to persuade him to agree with you. Now that he is holding his boundaries you want to end the relationship.

Personally I so wish you would let your T hold his boundaries and allow him to not agree with you once in awhile. Rather than continuing to work on the therapeutic relationship, push yourself out of your comfort zone and work on the reasons why you feel this way. Afterall you always say it is not about T, it is transference about something in your past. How will things ever improve for you if you don't work on the past and the reasons why you always need validation, agreement and approval for your wants?

That being said, it is totally up to you if you want to change therapists. The only thing I observe from your write up that scares me is your approach in determining what you consider a good option for the future. I do believe K was unethical in her reactions but she seems to be reading you very well and selling herself to you by giving you what you want. I don't think this would necessarily benefit your growth and self improvement even though I think she would make you happy by agreeing with you on everything.

I think it would help you more if you just interviewed each T based on what they can offer you. Why bring up everything your current T has said or done to upset you only to receive validation that you are right and he is wrong? Are you looking for a new T in order to help you move forward and heal your past or are you simply looking for a new T that will agree with you and keep you stuck by doing everything your way?

I guess that is the question you have to ask yourself in order to choose the right T. I wish you the best and hope you make the right decision for yourself.

[WarmFuzzySocks]

LT, though I am lifting it out of context, I think your T is right about one thing: Leave or don’’t leave.

Either he’’s not the t for you, and it is time to find a new t who can help you.
Or you’re bumping up against some scary hard boundary stuff you’d benefit from working through with him.

I don’’t know the right answer to that for you. But this time, effort, energy focused on stay-go, and the search for a new t while you’’re still seeing him doesn’t help you do either, it just keeps you stuck in triangulation and focused away from the issues that brought you into therapy.

And a because this is just hard stuff.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by nottrustin

Are you looking for validation from all these new Ts that current T is bad for you. I get the impression you you feel it is not working with him the way you want it to but want the validation from other Ts before you make a break from him. I know I could be way off base, though

Well, the one I saw yesterday, she was intended as a consultation specifically about my T. Whereas the others are potential new T's. The only reason I mentioned conflicts with current T to the guy I'm seeing Wednesday is because he asked the usual "Why are you seeking therapy?" question. And I said I was seeing a T and thought it was time for a change. He asked why, and I said ongoing conflicts.

When I meet with him Wednesday, my intention is to see if he's someone I could see working with longer-term. Since I've had lots of depression issues lately, I'm a bit worried about just terminating with my T without someone else in place to go to. And I feel I need to meet with someone to really get a sense of whether I could and would want to work with them (15-minute phone call helped, but the in person will tell more). K, who I saw yesterday, said I could see her as a bridge in between, which is good to know.

Also, I have a phone consult Tuesday with a female T, and, depending on how that goes, might schedule something with her for the following week (I'm trying to not overwhelm myself with meeting multiple new T's in one week.)

[stopdog]

I agree with those who suggest focusing on why you hired a therapist rather than on the current conflict with the therapist you have. Even the question why are you hiring a therapist could be answered about your underlying causes (depression for example - I am wanting to try to therapy to help with X rather than I am looking for a new therapist because I think the one I see now sucks) rather than the current therapist.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by WarmFuzzySocks

LT, though I am lifting it out of context, I think your T is right about one thing: Leave or don’’t leave.

Either he’’s not the t for you, and it is time to find a new t who can help you.
Or you’re bumping up against some scary hard boundary stuff you’d benefit from working through with him.

I don’’t know the right answer to that for you. But this time, effort, energy focused on stay-go, and the search for a new t while you’’re still seeing him doesn’t help you do either, it just keeps you stuck in triangulation and focused away from the issues that brought you into therapy.

And a because this is just hard stuff.

This is where I keep being unsure. Is it that I don't want to deal with the boundary stuff and with his being honest with me about his reactions to things I say? I feel kept seeing him after various other conflicts because I kept thinking "It's about what I need, not what I want." And that maybe I needed to face those hard truths.

But I also am starting to think that maybe I've learned all I can from him (and I have learned quite a bit). That I've gone as far as I can with him, at least for right now. That maybe I just need a different approach. Which is why in my searches, I've been looking for psychodynamic, humanistic, and/or attachment-based.

I want someone who is comfortable working with transference, who will explore what's going on with me without making it all about them. Which is what I feel like T is doing, focusing on his reactions instead of what's behind what I'm saying and why. Whereas ex-MC, who was psychodynamically trained, would tie things back into childhood and say things like testing him are natural. And not get all bent out of shape about it. I want a T who can handle me working through something with them. I don't feel like my current T can do that.

I am considering just going in Monday and saying I need to take a break (vs. terminating), leaving it open-ended (he's said before if I want to see another T for a while, I can always come back--want to make sure that's still true).

And thanks for the hugs.

[susannahsays]

I concur with the suggestions to focus on what brings you to therapy, rather than what brings you away from your current therapist, when meeting with these potential therapists.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I agree with those who suggest focussing on why you hired a therapist rather than on the current conflict with the therapist you have. Even the question why are you hiring a therapist could be answered about your underlying causes (depression for example - I am wanting to try to therapy to help with X rather than I am looking for a new therapist because I think the one I see now sucks) rather than the current therapist.

Oh, I answered with that stuff (depression, anxiety, relationship issues, attachment issues), too, because he asked about what I was looking for from therapy. But I also wanted to be upfront that I am currently seeing someone. He asked about termination with T, and I said I wanted to have someone in place, then I'd terminate, and he was good with that. That I wouldn't keep seeing both. I just want to meet this guy and perhaps the woman, too, in person before committing to either of them.

[susannahsays]

Can you explain a little bit more about what you mean about him making it all about him (if you want)? That's something I've been kind of confused about. Not disagreeing, I'm just missing it.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

Can you explain a little bit more about what you mean about him making it all about him (if you want)? That's something I've been kind of confused about. Not disagreeing, I'm just missing it.

Sure, here's a few recent examples (I know others might disagree with these being about him):

--His talking about feeling "trapped" into replying to me a couple Fridays ago when I was in a bad place
--His saying he was worried about liability and admitting how that was selfish of him
--His saying how he doesn't like to be micromanaged or controlled. And then going on (in email) about how he's the same way in his outside life and that he also doesn't expect other people to do something just because he asks them to (I don't care what he does in his real life).

--His talking about how it felt manipulative that I said maybe I needed a different T
--His saying it would be a problem if his backup T "stole" me from him. Then later, when I asked him to clarify, he said it wouldn't cause problems between me and him but between him and her. Which, yeah, I don't care.

--His saying how he spent much more than 30 minutes on my emails, but he's only going to charge me for that amount of time because he thinks of the customer at times.
--(perhaps a less good example) His saying the other day that lately I just keep pushing him to show he cares. Which is part of what's behind his frustration. I said I imagined it was partly related to his being away a bunch, and he said, "I'm sure it is," but then he didn't explore that at all with me.
--Back with the stone thing, when he was superfocused on his reaction to it, not mine

With ex-MC, if I had some reaction to him, he often would tie it into something from my childhood. He'd look at what was going on with it. Until what happened at the very end, he didn't share how he was personally reacting to things (even then he didn't fully share). He had his faults, but he kept things in a therapeutic direction and kept his emotions out of the therapy room. Which I think is related to his psychodynamic training maybe?

[Lonelyinmyheart]

He is sharing a lot of his emotions and responses, I would struggle with that. I have had Ts in the past who weren't dissimilar actually in the kind of responses they gave me, and I found myself becoming more and more distressed and pulled into a very difficult dynamic as a result. I had a T who told me she felt controlled by me because I sent a text when I was upset, and stuff like that. And each time I tried to sort it, it ended up more distressing and actually rather like my difficult marriage in a lot of ways. I know that my T was triggered because she was having strong counter transference feelings towards me in wanting to look after me as a child (this was obvious to me as time went on) which as a T she knew she couldn't, but we went deeply into what felt like a power struggle because we were battling each other emotionally. So I think I get it.. It sounds to me like your T is absolutely having emotional reactions to you, he's triggered and doesn't know how to deal with the situation effectively in a way that doesn't worsen things for you. There is a place for a T to disclose their emotions and be real, it's good sometimes to do that, but if the T is triggered, that is just a receipe for disaster.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I want someone who is comfortable working with transference, who will explore what's going on with me without making it all about them. Which is what I feel like T is doing, focusing on his reactions instead of what's behind what I'm saying and why. Whereas ex-MC, who was psychodynamically trained, would tie things back into childhood and say things like testing him are natural. And not get all bent out of shape about it. I want a T who can handle me working through something with them. I don't feel like my current T can do that.

LT—actually I think your therapist HAS kept his feelings out of it quite a lot even though, yeah, you’ve been testing him. But just because a therapist reacts to something you do or say doesn’t make it countertransference or them putting their feelings into it. You know, you want him to say he cares. Wouldn’t that be putting his feelings into it? Why is that okay and not “I felt manipulated”?

(ETA: none of the examples you gave in response to susannah strike me as him putting his emotions into it, making it all about him, or countertransference.)

As for the childhood stuff, you can talk the talk, but at some point you have to walk the walk. You have behaviors you want to change, yes. And you want to understand why you do them, okay. But it often seems for you the understanding is the end goal. And this understanding never goes very deep as far as I can tell, it’s like “here’s another incident from my childhood that might explain x.” A catalog like that stops helping after a certain point because you can only deal with the present.

This guy is a sports psychologist. He expects doing at some point—not necessarily succeeding, but doing. He wouldn’t have an athlete client with whom he’d talk about how their childhood makes them freeze up in front of a stadium, he’d work with them on strategies for dealing with it.

A lot of us here are not super fans of Dr. T. I think our concern is if you leave him it should be for the right reasons, not because he’s expressing some reactions to your behavior that are hard to hear. (That’s something to learn from him right there: why did he feel manipulated and is there anything you could change, because other people might react the same way?) Not just to start the same cycle over with another therapist. You may tell them you’re there for depression, but if you spend a lot of time going into details about Dr. T, so much so someone says what the hell?, what are you really there for?

Listen, it’s tough, and I feel for you, because obviously all this is terribly painful. I would just encourage you to really examine your role in your therapeutic relationship as well as his.

[LonesomeTonight]

@@, this is mostly in reply to your post: Something K brought up yesterday is she gets the sense I'm playing out something from childhood with T, like about one or both of my parents. I said most likely my father, because he didn't really show emotion or affection (he does more now, actually). And I've said to T numerous times that I think x reaction I'm having is not just about him, but it's about something from childhood. But he never seems to agree with that. He'll say that no, he does think it's about him. So, it's like I want to explore those angles, but he doesn't seem to want to. I know it's my therapy. But if he doesn't seem open to tying in my reactions in the present with stuff from my past, it makes it difficult to explore with him. I guess that's part of what I meant about him making it about him. Rather than thinking, for example, "Hm, LT is reacting really strongly to the wanting me to stand thing--I imagine there's something else going on there." And asking me about it. But instead, even when I say "I think it's about other stuff, too," he'll continue to go on about how it affected him and how he thinks it's just about his being on vacation or my wanting more control of him. Even though I say, "No, it's more than that." I think that's what's become particularly frustrating lately. I *do* want to do that work. I want to figure out what's going on with my reactions to him and other people. But if he doesn't seem to want to go along with it, it becomes very difficult to work on it with him.

And that's part of why I think I need a different T with a different orientation, to be able to work on stuff like that. For the T to have insights about things that maybe I'm missing.

As for strategies, he's done a little bit of that, but then just keeps repeating the same ones (exercise, meditation, hobbies like painting, reaching out to other people in my social network). And I use them, some quite a bit. But some of them can only go so far. I'm just wondering if I've exhausted his "bag of tricks" (he's said each T only has so much in their bag of tricks). I feel stuck, and it seems like he feels stuck, and I don't know where to go from here (I suppose I could say that line to him, couldn't I?) I think I need a new perspective, a different voice.

So, it's really not just all about he's telling me things I don't want to hear. For a long time, even though many were saying I should leave him and I was having doubts, I kept having this feeling of "I need to see this through." But, pardon my awful grammatical construction here, I'm starting to wonder: What am I trying to see through *to* with him? And is he the one to help me get there? I think I just need to try someone else on for a bit, see what it feels like (not the one I saw yesterday--it's possible I could use her to help transition if I have trouble finding someone with whom I feel comfortable, but I don't see her as a long-term therapist for me). I'm sick of the conflicts with T. They're often causing more stress and anguish in my life than what's going on in my actual life. And I don't see how that's ultimately helping me.