[Ididitmyway]

This thread is for those who were re-traumatized by the recent thread for survivors. People for whom this thread is intended know which thread i am referring to.

Here you can post about your experiences of being invalidated in various situations, environments, by different people if you have the need to rant and to process your pain. Or, alternatively, you can pm me if you don't feel safe to do it here or just process it on your own, which would be totally understandable.

I think, the title of this thread and the OP description is self-explanatory of who this thread is and isn't for and of its purpose. I don't feel the need to give explicit disclaimers.

I don't, actually, expect many posts here after what happened recently and that's okay. I just wanted to let you all know that you are not alone in feeling what you are feeling.

[missbella]

The hysteria around the the topic of therapist exploitation repeats almost reliably.
Who says there’s no replication in social science?

Thank you for starting this. Victim blaming of any kind is absolutely unacceptable.

[missbella]

Victim blaming in psychotherapy has distinguished and historical roots. Freud and descendants twisted in pretzels “diagnosing” patients who failed to gratify them, I mean improve. I understand writings on “negative therapeutic reaction” as all about object relations and patient defects, with the practitioner nary a factor. Resistance discussions can be equally patient bashing.

[Out There]

I'm going to visualise who did this to me twisting himself into a pretzel now - healing does come in unusual ways ! I might go watch a few " twister " game videos too and imagine this guy doing that trying to justify himself and laugh at him ! Thanks missbella - I did read your article quite some time ago and was pleased to find you on this forum in person. Survivors of this stuff truly need to feel that there are some people they CAN trust , betrayal of trust is often the worst aspect I think.

[missbella]

I included a sections on "power issues" and "subtle and not so subtle client blaming" on my unsystematic links and resources page:

Links and resources | Disequilibrium1's Blog

Here are a few links:
A Contextual View on the Risks of Therapeutic Authority

Clients’ constructions of power and metaphor in therapy

http://homepages.3-c.coop/erthworks/power.pdf

The God Complex in Therapy-Counselling
The most direct book I read (albeit some time ago ) on the subject on power in therapy is Theodore Dorpat's Gaslighting, the Double Whammy.

[Ididitmyway]

Thanks guys.

I posted this thread because I needed some kind of a venting outlet after what happened yesterday and I thought that may be others can benefit from it too.

I guess, what I am struggling to understand is a lack of basic compassion and even basic common sense that some people here demonstrate when they see threads posted by survivors of client abuse (this seems to be a more accurate term to me as opposed to therapist/therapy abuse, but I use both interchangeably).

I know that in order to understand someone you need to put yourself in their position for a moment (that's the definition of empathy). So, I often put myself in a position of a person, who has never been traumatized the way we have been and I think about how I'd react to those threads if my therapy was only a positive experience and I was unfamiliar with therapy trauma. I'd, most likely, read some comments, shrug my shoulders and walk away. I wouldn't feel like posting anything because it'd be clear to me that I have nothing to contribute to those threads. I'd have enough common sense to know that I don't have the intimate knowledge of that kind of dynamic because I haven't experienced what survivors of therapy abuse have experienced. And with a lack of such knowledge those threads are just not my place.

Actually, that's what many people here do. If they don't feel they've ever been exploited by therapists, they usually don't go to the survivors threads at all. They are just not interested. It's not their thing. THAT I could understand.

But there is a group of individuals (always the same people), who seem to make it their mission to get on every single survivor's thread to invalidate our reality by presenting a "different opinion". I don't dispute their and anyone's right to have whatever opinion they want to have, but I am stunned by how much stupidity it takes for someone to believe that they can convince people who are hurting to see their experiences differently without even making an attempt to understand them and to show compassion for their pain! What is more stunning is that some of those who try to invalidate our reality are those who suffer from PTSD themselves and who know perfectly well that a topic that triggers trauma cannot be discussed with the same emotional detachment as you'd discuss the differences between car models. Some of those people are also therapists or social workers (often the same thing in the US), who should know how NOT to talk to traumatized people..

Just trying to wrap my head around this..I often do that when something seems obvious to me but apparently not obvious to others and I always try to figure out why..

[missbella]

I've thought about the "ethics" of these discussions when others here are in distress and see their therapists as important resources. I can understand why are discussions are triggering.

And I considered is this like going to a pregnancy forum and telling horror stories?

But I essentially write what I wish I knew before going to therapy. I wish I'd approached the therapist as a fallible being as opposed to an oracle on high. I wish I'd been in touch with my common sense that the therapist can't possible understand my past better than me, ascribe causality or diagnose my unmet mother. I wish I hadn't expected miraculous transformation.

I also know that seemingly OK therapy can turn bad or seem damaging in retrospect. I had to survive having the rug pulled and realizing the wisdom granter not only failed to help, but also added to my anguish. Fortunately I had many life demands to distract me for a while.

So yeah, I understand why my experience could be triggering. But I also thought that the psychotherapy I never completed taught clients to recognize when they're being triggered and not be be driven by that. My psychoanalyst actually thought triggering was a good thing.

I think it comes down to common courtesy. I don't relate to probably 95 percent of the threads and posts here. (I hope) I'm courteous enough to stay away and not disrupt them. I pose that if people were simply courteous, maybe some vexations of life might be eased a bit.

What I find perplexing is anyone assuming anyone can get over something just by willing or wishing it so.

By virtue of the fact that this is a therapy forum and most if not all posters were/are in therapy, I would expect more sympathy towards therapy victims. Particularly since anyone IN therapy clearly hasn’t been able to ‘will’ themselves out of whatever is ailing them - it smacks of hypocriticality.

Many of these outrageous posts have provoked me into picking up my account and posting again. As someone who has struggled though years of damaging therapy and incurred trauma that has taken months to recover from after the fact - i am truly disgusted at many of the comments I read.

[missbella]

If we could resolve trauma, anxiety and depression through ridicule and scolding, therapy and this community would be unnecessary. We could all go to booths and have someone scream us into wholeness again.

Originally Posted by missbella

I've thought about the "ethics" of these discussions when others here are in distress and see their therapists as important resources. I can understand why are discussions are triggering.

And I considered is this like going to a pregnancy forum and telling horror stories?

But I essentially write what I wish I knew before going to therapy. I wish I'd approached the therapist as a fallible being as opposed to an oracle on high. I wish I'd been in touch with my common sense that the therapist can't possible understand my past better than me, ascribe causality or diagnose my unmet mother. I wish I hadn't expected miraculous transformation.

I also know that seemingly OK therapy can turn bad or seem damaging in retrospect. I had to survive having the rug pulled and realizing the wisdom granter not only failed to help, but also added to my anguish. Fortunately I had many life demands to distract me for a while.

So yeah, I understand why my experience could be triggering. But I also thought that the psychotherapy I never completed taught clients to recognize when they're being triggered and not be be driven by that. My psychoanalyst actually thought triggering was a good thing.

I think it comes down to common courtesy. I don't relate to probably 95 percent of the threads and posts here. (I hope) I'm courteous enough to stay away and not disrupt them. I pose that if people were simply courteous, maybe some vexations of life might be eased a bit.

I too struggle with the ethical piece.

From my view, the majority of ‘parade raining’ on this site is more geared towards helping others recognize red flags or bringing to light that therapy CAN be hurtful. There just aren’t any warnings or open public discussions and our stories need to be heard and learned from. Yes there are those who just vent - and I think those opinions are valid as well. They come from a place of pain and working towards resolution vs having a malicious agenda.

A few months ago I needed to take a break from the forum when my own postings became too negative and stopped serving my initial purpose. I am in a place now to offer a more balanced view.

Regarding pregnancy sites, there are many many places on the internet for those who have experienced loss to gather and share experiences. Unfortunately that is not the case for therapy survivors and we have few other places to go. Can’t really compare.

[blackocean]

i think some are overintellectualizing and others are expressing wish fulfillment to a pathological degree.

some want a relationship with T and are adamant that it’s true love and can’t understand why their comments upset people so much... because unlike those getting upset with them they were lucky enough to have a T who did not take advantage. they don’t understand because they haven’t experienced this unique trauma which some researchers compare to incestuous assualt. the more people tell them that they aren’t seeing clearly because they are in the thick of it the more desperate and anxious they get about protecting their wish.

some just wish to believe they are stronger and would never be manipulated. they don’t experience intense transference and see themselves as the hypothetical exception. they are in control and they don’t FEEL a power imbalance and so there is no power imbalance. but while some are more vulnerable than others, abuse of power can happen to anyone and the rules are there to protect everyone, not just the vulnerable or those who preceive themselves as vulnerable.

in a non-professional abusive relationship that begins organically the abuser has to build power and control over time but therapists and pastors have a kind of homecourt advantage with power/trust, even more than medical doctors, because they are emotional and psychological helpers who hear our secret traumas, as well as have intimate knowledge of psychological manipulation and the predatory ones groom INSIDIOUSLY. some take something like TWO YEARS before they begin a sexual relationship and have been grooming/planning since early in the relationship.

this is why the rules are so important for them to uphold. for everyone.

i raelly feel for people who love their therapist and want that to be a reality no matter what the cost. i loved my professor and loved him for years after and never thought what he did to me was abusive. i draemed about having his children despite never wanting children before in my life. i thought that meant we were meant to be, that a man could suddenly arouse that in me. the separation from him was UNBEARABLE. i thought it was different, pretty much everyone thinks they are different.

[FriendlyJoe]

Originally Posted by PurpleMirrors1

What I find perplexing is anyone assuming anyone can get over something just by willing or wishing it so.


By virtue of the fact that this is a therapy forum and most if not all posters were/are in therapy, I would expect more sympathy towards therapy victims. Particularly since anyone IN therapy clearly hasn’t been able to ‘will’ themselves out of whatever is ailing them - it smacks of hypocriticality.


Many of these outrageous posts have provoked me into picking up my account and posting again. As someone who has struggled though years of damaging therapy and incurred trauma that has taken months to recover from after the fact - i am truly disgusted at many of the comments I read.

I had to tell my Dr to quit bringing up that I need to see a therapist. I've been to a lot of therapy sessions from ages 12 to 17 and doing so almost ended my life. Reliving it over and over made me so manic I became more out of control. I recently went to see a therapist just for chits and grins and wow nothing has changed. They're still LIKE let's talk about those dark hidden memories. All those bad times in your life. What?!? I'm bipolar and what does talking about all my lows and dark memories that I've already dealt with and moved on from. I just want to learn new ways to deal with my issues and new ways deal with my bipolarness.

I hope you start posting again, I'd look forward to reading what you have to say on other subjects.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by PurpleMirrors1

I too struggle with the ethical piece.
From my view, the majority of ‘parade raining’ on this site is more geared towards helping others recognize red flags or bringing to light that therapy CAN be hurtful. There just aren’t any warnings or open public discussions and our
stories need to be heard and learned from.

Yes, there is a great need for more stories becoming public. There is a problem with this though.

Outside of a tiny isolated circle of survivors, the broader lay public, even those who are personally involved with the mental health system either as consumers or providers, would not see anonymous stories as legitimate. If your story doesn't come out under your real name, it'll be brushed off, and will stay, once again, inside our tiny inner circle, which will give us more opportunity for venting, but that's all.

I am not saying that everyone should go public with their stories. I perfectly understand all the reasons why people don't want to do that. All those reasons are legitimate and no one should be forced to come out publicly with anything personal.

I am just pointing out the fact that anonymous stories are not taken seriously by the public, that's all. Whether we like it or not, it is what it is and it's not going to change.

Originally Posted by PurpleMirrors1

A few months ago I needed to take a break from the forum when my own postings became too negative and stopped serving my initial purpose. I am in a place now to offer a more balanced view.

I often go on hiatus too and then come back when I am more centered and detached because I want to come with something constructive as opposed to constantly venting or clashing with "different opinion" people There are times when it's ok to do that, but then I start feeling how it pulls me down to the place I don't want to be in.

Originally Posted by PurpleMirrors1

Regarding pregnancy sites, there are many many places on the internet for those who have experienced loss to gather and share experiences. Unfortunately that is not the case for therapy survivors and we have few other places to go. Can’t really compare.

Yeah, I don't think these two can be compared. I don't suppose there is a lot of controversy around pregnancy and birth although people have different experiences with this Pregnancy and birth don't involve issues such morality, ethics, choices, power imbalance etc., which make therapy discussions so emotionally charged..

[sarahsweets]

Guys..I am SO sorry.

Originally Posted by blackocean

i think some are overintellectualizing and others are expressing wish fulfillment to a pathological degree.

some want a relationship with T and are adamant that it’s true love and can’t understand why their comments upset people so much... because unlike those getting upset with them they were lucky enough to have a T who did not take advantage. they don’t understand because they haven’t experienced this unique trauma which some researchers compare to incestuous assualt. the more people tell them that they aren’t seeing clearly because they are in the thick of it the more desperate and anxious they get about protecting their wish.

some just wish to believe they are stronger and would never be manipulated. they don’t experience intense transference and see themselves as the hypothetical exception. they are in control and they don’t FEEL a power imbalance and so there is no power imbalance. but while some are more vulnerable than others, abuse of power can happen to anyone and the rules are there to protect everyone, not just the vulnerable or those who preceive themselves as vulnerable.

in a non-professional abusive relationship that begins organically the abuser has to build power and control over time but therapists and pastors have a kind of homecourt advantage with power/trust, even more than medical doctors, because they are emotional and psychological helpers who hear our secret traumas, as well as have intimate knowledge of psychological manipulation and the predatory ones groom INSIDIOUSLY. some take something like TWO YEARS before they begin a sexual relationship and have been grooming/planning since early in the relationship.

this is why the rules are so important for them to uphold. for everyone.

i raelly feel for people who love their therapist and want that to be a reality no matter what the cost. i loved my professor and loved him for years after and never thought what he did to me was abusive. i draemed about having his children despite never wanting children before in my life. i thought that meant we were meant to be, that a man could suddenly arouse that in me. the separation from him was UNBEARABLE. i thought it was different, pretty much everyone thinks they are different.

I feel for people who love their therapist as well. Despite everything I’ve been through, I still love mine. It’s what makes the trauma so difficult to recover from. When nurturing and attunement is mixed with rejection and anger, there are a lot of pieces sort out. In many ways it would have been easier to be traumatized by a ‘bad guy’.

[Ididitmyway]

Thank you Sarah. I saw your apology on the other thread. I've already responded there, but I am happy to do it here as well. I accept and appreciate your apology. I don't hold grudges when someone sincerely makes things right, which you did. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

Thank you Sarah. I saw your apology on the other thread. I've already responded there, but I am happy to do it here as well. I accept and appreciate your apology. I don't hold grudges when someone sincerely makes things right, which you did. Thank you.

I wasn’t involved in the thread in question but did follow it closely.

I share this sentiment, and don’t hold grudges either.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by FriendlyJoe

I had to tell my Dr to quit bringing up that I need to see a therapist. I've been to a lot of therapy sessions from ages 12 to 17 and doing so almost ended my life. Reliving it over and over made me so manic I became more out of control. I recently went to see a therapist just for chits and grins and wow nothing has changed. They're still LIKE let's talk about those dark hidden memories. All those bad times in your life. What?!? I'm bipolar and what does talking about all my lows and dark memories that I've already dealt with and moved on from. I just want to learn new ways to deal with my issues and new ways deal with my bipolarness.

I hope you start posting again, I'd look forward to reading what you have to say on other subjects.

Thank you.

Wow. You were just a kid when therapy damaged you. I don't think I've heard a harmful therapy story back from when a person was that young. It's sad that nothing has changed for you many years later when you decided to give it a try once again.

When I post something, it's usually on my blog, rarely here. But I haven't been able to do it even on my blog for some time now. It happens to me every now and then that I get discouraged because I feel like no one needs it. I hope I will experience some energy shift soon because I do have a lot to say on different topics, not only harmful therapy but mental health in general and beyond that.

[FriendlyJoe]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

Thank you.


Wow. You were just a kid when therapy damaged you. I don't think I've heard a harmful therapy story back from when a person was that young. It's sad that nothing has changed for you many years later when you decided to give it a try once again.


When I post something, it's usually on my blog, rarely here. But I haven't been able to do it even on my blog for some time now. It happens to me every now and then that I get discouraged because I feel like no one needs it. I hope I will experience some energy shift soon because I do have a lot to say on different topics, not only harmful therapy but mental health in general and beyond that.

How do I get to your blog?

[missbella]

This topic is indeed triggering. It seems it would be easy that those triggered simply stay away. Though I suspect even if PC invented a special trigger warning for us we’d have the same problem.

Idimw, I appreciate the information you bring to the public. From my reading, there are a few researchers/ educators who discuss harm or client feedback, but I’ve yet to read my concerns discussed. I’ve contacted a few of those authors, but get no traction.

Originally Posted by FriendlyJoe

I had to tell my Dr to quit bringing up that I need to see a therapist. I've been to a lot of therapy sessions from ages 12 to 17 and doing so almost ended my life. Reliving it over and over made me so manic I became more out of control. I recently went to see a therapist just for chits and grins and wow nothing has changed. They're still LIKE let's talk about those dark hidden memories. All those bad times in your life. What?!? I'm bipolar and what does talking about all my lows and dark memories that I've already dealt with and moved on from. I just want to learn new ways to deal with my issues and new ways deal with my bipolarness.

I hope you start posting again, I'd look forward to reading what you have to say on other subjects.

I’m sorry you’ve been through so much at such a young age. Yes, much of what’s being practiced these days is excavations of prior bad memories and in-session role playing. In many cases it’s being conducted by practitioners with only masters level degrees and limited ranges of experiences. Not that education is always correlated with how good a therapist is, but it’s easy to fall into bad hands when 20-somethings with limited professional and life experiences are licensed to have at it behind closed doors with all kinds of complex patients.

I find that evidence based therapies are more aligned with what you are looking for. CBT therapists for example are more pragmatic, particularly when they don’t indulge in making the therapy all about the relationship or derailing into excavations of the past and then client-soothing.

[koru_kiwi]

Originally Posted by PurpleMirrors1

By virtue of the fact that this is a therapy forum and most if not all posters were/are in therapy, I would expect more sympathy towards therapy victims. Particularly since anyone IN therapy clearly hasn’t been able to ‘will’ themselves out of whatever is ailing them -it smacks of hypocriticality.

well said...could not agree more.

although i take the time to read many of the posts on this topic, often, due to my own issues, i struggle to muster up the energy to really engage and participate as much as i would like too in these 'conversations' (debates). perhaps much of this is due to the fact that i've been reading on these forums long enough now to predict the usual pattern that occurs with this topic: a well meaning and what could be a useful and valuable post, not just to the OP but to other forum members, looking for support, input or simply a place to vent and unload, soon takes a turn for the worst, morphing into a mob mentality of hurling spiteful responses and each side going round and round in circles trying to convince the other side that they are wrong and the other is right. then the moderators step in and shut it down for 'review"...aka...this thread is over for discussion, full stop! so what could have been a useful and possibly enlightening discussion just adds fuel to the fire for another reason for fellow PC members, fellow survivors, fellow MH sufferers, fellow therapy participators, and fellow adults of this insane and crazy world to be upset with one another. i often find that frustrating and sometimes disheartening. nothing like the anonymity of the internet to bring the worst out in people.

i fully do support having these conversations and having them brought into the light (thanks IDIMY for opening this space for this topic). there appears to be some members, who, for what ever reason, seem to really get their nickers into a twist just at the mere idea or thought that clients could actually be harmed by what happens in or because of therapy and/or by the relationship with their T. personally, i wonder if the idea of therapy/client harm being a distinct possibility, that therapy and healing this way isn't the true path of enlightenment or all rainbows and gumdrops for everyone, actually scares some members. they become fearful and this triggered fear definilty is indicated in their unsympathetic behaviour and quite passionate responses towards others. i actually understand this, because back when i was drinking the kool-aid and believing whole heartily that therapy and the beautiful therapeutic relationship i shared with my T is what was going to ultimately heal me, i too struggled to read posts that talked about Ts doing harmful things, like Ts painfully abandoning clients with sudden terminations, Ts inconsistently changing up the boundaries, Ts having sexual relations with clients, etc, etc. during that time, i often talked highly and praised my T for how great of a T he was for me. but, now that i have experienced similar things, i'm a true convert and want to let others know they are not alone and help them recognize some of the red flags to encourage and/or empower them to help remove themselves from the situation or so that they do not feel alone.

BTW welcome back! nice to have you here again

[missbella]

Originally Posted by sarahsweets

Guys..I am SO sorry.

Thank you so much Sarah. I consider the slate wiped clean.

[koru_kiwi]

Originally Posted by PurpleMirrors1

I feel for people who love their therapist as well. Despite everything I’ve been through, I still love mine. It’s what makes the trauma so difficult to recover from. When nurturing and attunement is mixed with rejection and anger, there are a lot of pieces sort out. In many ways it would have been easier to be traumatized by a ‘bad guy’.

this is absolutely spot on and is what i think some struggle to fully comprehend.

i too still care deeply for my ex-T and even remain in contact with him, seeing him occasionally. fortunately, my ex-T has been willing to have the conversations with me regarding some of this since i have left and even acknowledged and apologised for his mistakes. that has been the most healing aspect of it and has been incredibly beneficial in helping me to move forward. if he would have cut off all contact after i left, i'm positive i would still be struggling and bitter with the disappointment, shame and resentments.