[koru_kiwi]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

When I post something, it's usually on my blog, rarely here. But I haven't been able to do it even on my blog for some time now. It happens to me every now and then that I get discouraged because I feel like no one needs it. I hope I will experience some energy shift soon because I do have a lot to say on different topics, not only harmful therapy but mental health in general and beyond that.

i'm pretty sure i have shared this praise many times before with you, but it's definilty worth saying again:

it was your's and missbella's blogs that i found years ago when i first started having doubts and questioning my therapy and my therapist. your blogs were the safe place for me to go to when i felt quite alone in my doubts and it was the things that you two shared that truely encouraged me to take my power back.

[missbella]

Originally Posted by PurpleMirrors1

I too struggle with the ethical piece.

From my view, the majority of ‘parade raining’ on this site is more geared towards helping others recognize red flags or bringing to light that therapy CAN be hurtful. There just aren’t any warnings or open public discussions and our stories need to be heard and learned from. Yes there are those who just vent - and I think those opinions are valid as well. They come from a place of pain and working towards resolution vs having a malicious agenda.

A few months ago I needed to take a break from the forum when my own postings became too negative and stopped serving my initial purpose. I am in a place now to offer a more balanced view.

Regarding pregnancy sites, there are many many places on the internet for those who have experienced loss to gather and share experiences. Unfortunately that is not the case for therapy survivors and we have few other places to go. Can’t really compare.

That’s true. Survivors have contained discussions. I haven’t seen anyone burst into an account of a good relationship with dire predictions.

I don’t respond to someone unless I feel I’m telling them what they know already. I appreciate the people who did that for me.

Originally Posted by koru_kiwi

i'm pretty sure i have shared this praise many times before with you, but it's definilty worth saying again:

it was your's and missbella's blogs that i found years ago when i first started having doubts and questioning my therapy and my therapist. your blogs were the safe place for me to go to when i felt quite alone in my doubts and it was the things that you two shared that truely encouraged me to take my power back.

I too appreciate the folks who have been harmed, but still post/engage in the same painful repetitive topics and arguements to make sure those who need help get help. I have been reading this board for years and don’t know where I’d be without the voices who have experienced the darker side of therapy sharing their wisdom.

A sincere thank you!

[missbella]

Originally Posted by koru_kiwi

i'm pretty sure i have shared this praise many times before with you, but it's definilty worth saying again:

it was your's and missbella's blogs that i found years ago when i first started having doubts and questioning my therapy and my therapist. your blogs were the safe place for me to go to when i felt quite alone in my doubts and it was the things that you two shared that truely encouraged me to take my power back.

Thanks so much for telling me. I’m so happy the blog was helpful. Likewise, I’ve learned so much from the community it gathered. Paradoxically, I’ve likely grown more on this crazy, bumpy road than if my therapy proceeded smoothly.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by FriendlyJoe

How do I get to your blog?

It's Therapy Consumer Guide


It's, actually, in my signature section on my profile. You should see it there.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by missbella

This topic is indeed triggering. It seems it would be easy that those triggered simply stay away. Though I suspect even if PC invented a special trigger warning for us we’d have the same problem.

Idimw, I appreciate the information you bring to the public. From my reading, there are a few researchers/ educators who discuss harm or client feedback, but I’ve yet to read my concerns discussed. I’ve contacted a few of those authors, but get no traction.

Thank you so much. Do you mind telling who those researchers/educators are? The info on the subject is so scarce that any new piece I can find is refreshing.

[missbella]

I tried contacting Lambert, no dice. Lilienfeld and I had a funny exchange recently about a link on a defunct journal, but he failed to “take the bait” about a discussion with consumers. I’ve tried to provoke discussion on MIA and around an ethics book on Amazon. Is this a long way of telling you I’ve found no one new?

You’ll see I finally added long random links page to my blog, collecting from discussions there, PC and anything around the topic I could google. I covered some tangential topics like social hierarchy, cults and persuasion. There might be something new.

Links and resources | Disequilibrium1's Blog

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by koru_kiwi

well said...could not agree more.

although i take the time to read many of the posts on this topic, often, due to my own issues, i struggle to muster up the energy to really engage and participate as much as i would like too in these 'conversations' (debates). perhaps much of this is due to the fact that i've been reading on these forums long enough now to predict the usual pattern that occurs with this topic: a well meaning and what could be a useful and valuable post, not just to the OP but to other forum members, looking for support, input or simply a place to vent and unload, soon takes a turn for the worst, morphing into a mob mentality of hurling spiteful responses and each side going round and round in circles trying to convince the other side that they are wrong and the other is right. then the moderators step in and shut it down for 'review"...aka...this thread is over for discussion, full stop! so what could have been a useful and possibly enlightening discussion just adds fuel to the fire for another reason for fellow PC members, fellow survivors, fellow MH sufferers, fellow therapy participators, and fellow adults of this insane and crazy world to be upset with one another. i often find that frustrating and sometimes disheartening. nothing like the anonymity of the internet to bring the worst out in people.

I have the same frustration that this topic cannot be discussed in a meaningful way.

It's not enough for everyone just to be civil to have a meaningful discussion. I think, everyone should be mindful of their intentions for entering such conversations. I believe, the only way meaningful discussions can take place is when all participants have a common goal to gain a better understanding of the subject and each other. Unfortunately, as it often happens with most humans, we often have the need to assert ourselves and to "prove" the other side wrong instead of coming from a genuine desire to hear each other.

But I do think that those of us who were traumatized by therapy need to be heard by others first before we can respond in kind and open our minds and hearts to hearing a "different perspective". I learned long ago not to disrespect my pain and not to dismiss my feelings for the sake of looking at the issue from a "rational" perspective a.k.a only intellectually, which, in and of itself, invalidates any emotional experience by design. I've learned not to allow others to disrespect my pain either by "rationally" dismissing it just because they do it civilly.

So, I think, I am capable of hearing a "different perspective" and engaging with those who see the issue differently, but only AFTER they show me that they GENUINELY want to understand my experience through engaging their heart (not intellect), that they GENUINELY get it, again through their heart and that they have GENUINE compassion for my pain. If anyone tries to discuss the topic with me without making an effort to do all of the above, that would be a non-starter for me.

[here today]

Originally Posted by missbella

I tried contacting Lambert, no dice. Lilienfeld and I had a funny exchange recently about a link on a defunct journal, but he failed to “take the bait” about a discussion with consumers. I’ve tried to provoke discussion on MIA and around an ethics book on Amazon. Is this a long way of telling you I’ve found no one new?

You’ll see I finally added long random links page to my blog, collecting from discussions there, PC and anything around the topic I could google. I covered some tangential topics like social hierarchy, cults and persuasion. There might be something new.

Links and resources | Disequilibrium1's Blog

Thanks so much for taking the initiative on all this, as you have for years. You do have an internet presence, and that is a start.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by PurpleMirrors1

I feel for people who love their therapist as well. Despite everything I’ve been through, I still love mine. It’s what makes the trauma so difficult to recover from. When nurturing and attunement is mixed with rejection and anger, there are a lot of pieces sort out. In many ways it would have been easier to be traumatized by a ‘bad guy’.

I know. I don't think it's possible to be traumatized by a "bad guy". Someone you'd consider a "bad guy" from the start would never have power over you because you'd never fall in love with them.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by koru_kiwi

i'm pretty sure i have shared this praise many times before with you, but it's definilty worth saying again:

it was your's and missbella's blogs that i found years ago when i first started having doubts and questioning my therapy and my therapist. your blogs were the safe place for me to go to when i felt quite alone in my doubts and it was the things that you two shared that truely encouraged me to take my power back.

Thank you so much!

[missbella]

I get the impression that some people are trying out skills on the forum they learned in therapy like "be assertive," "be honest." I received that training too.

Unfortunately my therapists failed to take outside context and consequence into consideration when they coached me to speak up. "Being assertive" with a tyrannical boss or conversely running roughshod into a sensitive discussion can have a negative outcome. I wonder if some of the conflict on the boards are from people experimenting with new personae.

[Ididitmyway]

My therapy, actually, didn't focus much on teaching me how to be assertive and honest but rather on learning how to respect my feelings and not let my intellect suppress or minimize them or brush them off. That's why, as I said in my previous post, I learned long ago (thanks to therapy) not to let anyone trick me into believing that they "don't mean" to invalidate me when they give me their intellectual reasoning as to why my emotions are "wrong".

So, in part, all my therapists taught me how to validate and respect my reality. But that only applied to the reality outside of therapy room. When it came to my experience in therapy, anything I experienced negatively was totally invalidated. That is why it became so ironic when I started using what they taught me on them at times when they gaslighted me. So, ironically, the very thing they taught me helped me see through their BS and break away from them eventually. And then it helped me in life from that point on and is still helping to see through BS and not get manipulated.

There is nothing wrong with assertiveness and honesty per se, but there is a difference between honesty and openness and between assertiveness and confidence. I don't need to be open with everyone all the time. In fact, in some situations, I'd better not be. In most social situations I am not open about my political views, like most people, probably. That doesn't make me dishonest. If I am asked about it, I have no problem answering the question honestly and I don't care how they take it. But it's unlikely someone would ask. Likewise, there is no need to assert my position or my views when there is no real need for it. Choosing not to assert myself doesn't make me any less confident in what I believe.

When it comes to conversations, asserting opinions doesn't convince anyone. It just turns a discussion into a winning contest a.k.a pissing match and then it becomes a spectacle about who can throw the most impressive punch with a cheering crowd on each side

Anyway, I have no idea what motivates people to butt into survivors threads and to lecture us about how we should be seeing our experiences. I don't know if they are practicing "assertiveness" skills they learned in therapy or what. What I do know is that I am sick and tired of being called a "bully" simply for standing up for myself and simply because I choose not to engage with some people at all! That last one is pure gaslighting comparable to the Orwellian NewSpeak "War=Peace, Ignorance=Strengths, Freedom=Slavery". I am a "bully" because I don't want to talk to someone? Seriously? How crazy is that? Many people don't talk to me. So what? I don't call them "bullies". I just don't care about them. I may be upset to some extend depending on how much I valued the interactions/relationship, sometimes very upset and hurt, but I don't deny their right to withdraw if they want to.

[blackocean]

I think some of it is just people looking to fight to release anger or something. like someone in the other thread by OutThere made a callous, mean, snarky comment and it feels like baiting.

the thread is addresssed to survivors and has supportive comments and then it’s already devolving where one person says they felt silenced and another person is joining in and soon i predict another thread closed

[missbella]

Originally Posted by blackocean

I think some of it is just people looking to fight to release anger or something. like someone in the other thread by OutThere made a callous, mean, snarky comment and it feels like baiting.

the thread is addresssed to survivors and has supportive comments and then it’s already devolving where one person says they felt silenced and another person is joining in and soon i predict another thread closed

Yes, I read enormous rage in the hectoring. I assume they're enormously threatened/triggered by our discussion.

[missbella]

My therapy focused a great deal on "getting in touch with feelings," sometimes to the ridiculous exclusion of letting thinking get in the way. I'm unsure if it accomplished much, though I think I've become more spontaneous and expressive over the years.

But I also was taught "assertiveness," and assume it's likely another thing some therapists do. But my "speaking up" training didn't come with any intelligence and awareness of consequence. "Assertiveness" without regard for other beings is a bad brew. We each have our own journeys and someone "asserting opinion" in our process is absurdly superfluous.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by blackocean

I think some of it is just people looking to fight to release anger or something. like someone in the other thread by OutThere made a callous, mean, snarky comment and it feels like baiting.

the thread is addresssed to survivors and has supportive comments and then it’s already devolving where one person says they felt silenced and another person is joining in and soon i predict another thread closed

I just looked at it. Yeah, it's going down that direction.

That's why I appreciate the ignore list so much. If someone is traumatized and wants to have a safe (more or less) space with fellow survivors, they can't do it without putting some safeguard. And I don't believe they have to always put themselves in isolation by setting a private group. I don't want to create a private group, as if we have to hide because we are talking about something shameful or doing something shameful. Hell, no. This topic is nothing to be ashamed of. If some people are disturbed by it, they don't have to come here and read it.

I look at threads as rooms in the building. If you don't like what's going on in some rooms, you don't have to come and join the party. There is plenty of other rooms for you to entertain yourself. Find what you like or set up your own room. You are not going to demand that youtube close all the channels you don't like. You just don't watch what you don't like. This whining is getting ridiculous.

[missbella]

I get the impression that the profession so rarely addresses the harm topic because they’re rabbit-scared. Then the same thing happens on PC. People are either triggered or acting as therapists’ surrogates by silencing critics. It appears to me a crazy mix of maintaining authority and unwillingness to relinquish myth. It would an interesting exploration if it were addressed bravely and honesty.

[Taylor27]

It's sad to see there is more debate on these types of threads then support. I myself am a survivor of mis treatment by professional 9 years ago i got badly terminated by them, still today im still struggiling. I can talk about it to my therapist however he has yet to help me have a stronger voice. It's difficult to get therapy for trauma done by therapist it's like they all protect each other. I truly hope pc becomes a supportive place for people like me who have been terribly hurt by therapist.

[Ididitmyway]

Well, I have a rather dark perspective on human nature. I've come to believe, as a result of all my life experiences, that human beings are not naturally wired to be brave and honest. It goes completely against the biological need to survive. We are conditioned to keep ourselves dependent on others because for the most part of human history being ex-communicated from a tribe, clan, community or family literally threatened a person's physical survival. For thousands of years people could only survive as part of the collective, not as individuals. No surprise then why individual needs and desires had to be suppressed fully if they threatened the cohesiveness of the group.

In this day and age, we may not necessarily need some community for physical survival, but we still need it for psychological survival because it gives us a sense of identity, and so does any significant relationship. And, though from a spiritual perspective we don't need a human identity to feel good about ourselves, we are still rooted in our human nature here on earth and so a human need for identity is valid.

I understand that it's scary to lose a relationship that is important to you, especially when it may be the only meaningful relationship you have. I understand that the fear of losing that relationship could make people be willing to tolerate abuse. There was a time in my life when I did that and, if we are all brave and honest, each one of us can admit to having done something similar. That's why I don't judge people for not having enough strengths to be brave and honest when it comes to things they fear the most. But I am also not going to keep my mouth shut just to keep them comfortable and to make sure I don't upset them.

Clearly, those who hate this topic have some serious problems in their own therapy that they don't want to address for the fear of losing something else that therapy either really offers or seems to offer them that seems to worth tolerating other problems it gives them. Even domestic violence victims stay in relationships as long as they believe that the relationship offers them something important that is worth tolerating all the hell they are getting. It may seem insane from the outside, but the inner logic of the person who is experiencing it makes total sense. Thus there is the need to continue to live in a fantasy and there is the anger towards anyone who introduces even a glimpse of reality.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by Cheryl27

It's sad to see there is more debate on these types of threads then support. I myself am a survivor of mis treatment by professional 9 years ago i got badly terminated by them, still today im still struggiling. I can talk about it to my therapist however he has yet to help me have a stronger voice. It's difficult to get therapy for trauma done by therapist it's like they all protect each other. I truly hope pc becomes a supportive place for people like me who have been terribly hurt by therapist.

I hope this will be the case one day that people who were harmed in therapy would be really listened to.

I am sorry for what happened to you. I too tried to heal therapy trauma with subsequent therapists with little result. You are right. Most therapists are uncomfortable with the issue and don't want to deal with such cases. They don't want to see how their colleagues failed people. It makes them anxious about their own ability to help and challenges their view of themselves as all knowing Gods.

[FriendlyJoe]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

Well, I have a rather dark perspective on human nature. I've come to believe, as a result of all my life experiences, that human beings are not naturally wired to be brave and honest. It goes completely against the biological need to survive. We are conditioned to keep ourselves dependent on others because for the most part of human history being ex-communicated from a tribe, clan, community or family literally threatened a person's physical survival. For thousands of years people could only survive as part of the collective, not as individuals. No surprise then why individual needs and desires had to be suppressed fully if they threatened the cohesiveness of the group.


In this day and age, we may not necessarily need some community for physical survival, but we still need it for psychological survival because it gives us a sense of identity, and so does any significant relationship. And, though from a spiritual perspective we don't need a human identity to feel good about ourselves, we are still rooted in our human nature here on earth and so a human need for identity is valid.


I understand that it's scary to lose a relationship that is important to you, especially when it may be the only meaningful relationship you have. I understand that the fear of losing that relationship could make people be willing to tolerate abuse. There was a time in my life when I did that and, if we are all brave and honest, each one of us can admit to having done something similar. That's why I don't judge people for not having enough strengths to be brave and honest when it comes to things they fear the most. But I am also not going to keep my mouth shut just to keep them comfortable and to make sure I don't upset them.


Clearly, those who hate this topic have some serious problems in their own therapy that they don't want to address for the fear of losing something else that therapy either really offers or seems to offer them that seems to worth tolerating other problems it gives them. Even domestic violence victims stay in relationships as long as they believe that the relationship offers them something important that is worth tolerating all the hell they are getting. It may seem insane from the outside, but the inner logic of the person who is experiencing it makes total sense. Thus there is the need to continue to live in a fantasy and there is the anger towards anyone who introduces even a glimpse of reality.

People do tend to make like minded groups/tribes/organizations/etc. You have certain types of personalities but trying to find your type can be extremely difficult.

Do I like being a solo person? No. Would I like to hang out with people? Yes but only ones that feels the same as me. It's more work to be friends with others that I totally dont agree with. I'm 38 I have 1 close friend and she's exactly like me. I thought I was the only one but after meeting her I knew there's got to be more. I'm on a mission to find more individuals that's the same.

You're way might work for 99% of the population but I know it doesn't work for me. I know this is a hard thing to grasp since I'm told by everyone that it's what I need and I'll be cured. LOL, No thanks. The thought that comes to mind is a cable commercial about bundling. Overly happy couple rings the door bell and very persistently says "but we all bundle" in a crazy creepy voice.

I've read some of your blogs. You mean well but there's more than one way to grow and better ourselves.

[blackocean]

something that really unnerves me is that my therapist said he could tell I had trauma within the first 2 sessions, and that it was probably sexual trauma. He knew before I did but also this was well before I trusted him enough to tell him anything really, still very guarded and self protective. It wasn’t that he could see vulnerability vaguely but that he could guess the specific trauma even though I thought I was acting normally and not showing my true self. He just knew. From training ad experience. That power in the hands of an abuser who means to groom is so dangerous. An abuser with trust built in to his role since he is there to help, has devoted his public life to helping. A doctor. How do people not see that.

And i do remember him asking very early if I had sexual abuse. Multiple times. I kept saying no. I never considered it abuse, didnt seem like a big deal. I thought it was weird that he was asking that. Eventually of course it came out. But it was so intuitive and easy for him.

[missbella]

Originally Posted by FriendlyJoe

People do tend to make like minded groups/tribes/organizations/etc. You have certain types of personalities but trying to find your type can be extremely difficult.

Do I like being a solo person? No. Would I like to hang out with people? Yes but only ones that feels the same as me. It's more work to be friends with others that I totally dont agree with. I'm 38 I have 1 close friend and she's exactly like me. I thought I was the only one but after meeting her I knew there's got to be more. I'm on a mission to find more individuals that's the same.

You're way might work for 99% of the population but I know it doesn't work for me. I know this is a hard thing to grasp since I'm told by everyone that it's what I need and I'll be cured. LOL, No thanks. The thought that comes to mind is a cable commercial about bundling. Overly happy couple rings the door bell and very persistently says "but we all bundle" in a crazy creepy voice.

I've read some of your blogs. You mean well but there's more than one way to grow and better ourselves.

I understand IDIMW entirely differently. I've observed what she discusses. Humans tend to ignore abuse, go against their bests interests, in order to maintain group affiliations. The "cult" phenomenon is widespread in relationships, in the workplace, in many group affiliations. I understand she's saying it can be extremely difficult to break off an affiliation, intimate or larger group, even when faced with overwhelming evidence it's in our best interests. That hesitancy to break away likely stems from our primal instincts when group cohesion was essential to survival.

I don't think that means going it alone always and forever. It means deciding when harm outweighs the affiliation. It can be extremely difficult, and it definitely applies when seeking help in therapy.

IDIMW, please feel free to correct my Cliff Notes.

[HD7970GHZ]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

Well, I have a rather dark perspective on human nature. I've come to believe, as a result of all my life experiences, that human beings are not naturally wired to be brave and honest.

Unfortunately, I relate to your take on human nature. Big hugs to you - it takes a whole lot of trauma and suffering to see the world this way, fellow survivor.

Thanks,
HD7970ghz