[SalingerEsme]

I am very devoted to my T, and he has helped me come to terms with a difficult past, stuck with me for years, and we have survived stalemates, impasses, leaps forwards, bonding- every color of experience. However he tell me outright lies here and there, and I accidentally discovered one today by happenstance.

It gives me an uneasy, sick-to-my-stomach feeling. It is an inconsequential lie about something we both did way back in college that came up in chitchat, but it is a 100 percent lie told looking into my eyes and told very very smoothly. What would you do? I am scared of conflict, and we already went through a struggle in which he wrote about me on social media and it took me months to bring it up. We never talked it through. It was dreadful. I don't want my T to terminate me or to corner him with this, but I am so bothered. He is a GREAT liar. I never even suspected until I found out accidentally today by circumstance.

It is also important to say how loyal, caring, devoted , professional, boundaries, and effective this T is, and how much of a safety figure he is in my life now.

[SalingerEsme]

Actually, I think the reason might be we didn't know each other as well then, and he might have been either trying not to seem snobby or to maybe protect his personal info without seeming evasive (?).

[SummerTime12]

Is there any chance there’s some info that you don’t have that could change things? In the sense that he could be telling the truth? Whether the answer is yes or no, I would bring it up to him so it doesn’t eat away at you. I know that probably difficult to do, but I think it would be worth it. Maybe phrase in such a way as, “after you told me ____ at our last session, I happened to learn that ____, which led me to wonder how what you said could be true if that is also true. Is there some information that I’m missing here?”

I don’t know the full situation so that wording might not be great lol. Also, I’ve had a similar thing happen with my t, where he said something and based on facts I knew I thought it couldn’t be true. I never did bring it up to him but I wish I had.

[Xynesthesia2]

I think many Ts are good liars or lie frequently, it is pretty much part of being in this profession, I think. But there are differences between lying that a client's certain act did not make them angry, for example, and unnecessary lies and reality distortions. I would most likely confront him if it was something that affected or interfered with my therapy. If not, probably would not bother, but the awareness would definitely influence my sense of their credibility. My last T told me straight that sometimes he says things to clients that are not true about him if he think that's what the client wants to hear, e.g. things about his political opinions or interests. He even said that he lied about his professional experience when a prospective client asked if he had experience with their issue. I would not care about political views but definitely would not like if he told me he was very familiar with my problem and helped many people when, in reality, his knowledge and experience was insufficient.

[Out There]

Sorry this is an unsettling experience for you , but you rightly see there will be a reason for it. I remember reading T's don't always expect clients to tell them the truth , maybe T's are the same. Maybe sometimes things aren't always a conscious lie done deliberately , the person may believe what they said is true. But how to approach this? You've lied to me , or I feel like you've lied to me ? We never truly know what others are thinking or doing.

[downandlonely]

If it's inconsequential (sounds like something about doing drugs in college or something) I wouldn't worry too much about it. Lots of people lie about stuff like that.

That would bother me and so would definitely tell my T about it. But then again I have worked through my transferences about fears of abandonment, rejection... If I am shielding information from him that has an impact on our relationship, aside from avoiding my issues, it is kind of like I'm not letting him be his own person-like I'm trying to protect him from the unpleasantness of confrontation, don't trust what he will do with the information, trying to control how he feels, trying to be responsible for his emotions or actions, or project what he may be feeling/thinking/doing. It's a way of being in control but it also keeps the dependency alive. So, if I want to discuss something with him, I will do it and let him choose for himself how to feel and if/how to react-unpleasant or not. But that's me.

It's understandable to be self-protective and scared of conflict, but from what you wrote, it sounds like it may be an elephant in the room.

[stopdog]

I never believed therapists were truthful to begin with. I believe they are trained to be professional liars.

[SalingerEsme]

Originally Posted by SummerTime12

Is there any chance there’s some info that you don’t have that could change things? In the sense that he could be telling the truth? Whether the answer is yes or no, I would bring it up to him so it doesn’t eat away at you. I know that probably difficult to do, but I think it would be worth it. Maybe phrase in such a way as, “after you told me ____ at our last session, I happened to learn that ____, which led me to wonder how what you said could be true if that is also true. Is there some information that I’m missing here?”

I don’t know the full situation so that wording might not be great lol. Also, I’ve had a similar thing happen with my t, where he said something and based on facts I knew I thought it couldn’t be true. I never did bring it up to him but I wish I had.

No it is highly specific lie. It is a flat out bald face lie. There is zero chance he told the truth. I actually assumed the truth, and he corrected me to the lie, which is really strange. He is like the Talanted Mr. Ripley with his lie skills. I don't know if he just thinks it is well within his rights to lie to clients( he says patients), but it hurts my feelings and scares me bc he is holds these secrets ad truths of mine that no one else knows. I feel destabilized and worried, and not sure how to proceed. I don't want to trap or embarrass him, especially bc I depend on him too much.

[SalingerEsme]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I never believed therapists were truthful to begin with. I believe they are trained to be professional liars.

I keep idealizing the relationship, and then being snapped back to the reality of the power differential and the "as if" quality. It is as if we are so close , and he is a safe person; he says therapy should be my port in the storms. And this lie doesn't hurt me- there's very little reason to tell it. It is lie # 3 that I know about, so probably lie # 50.

[SalingerEsme]

Originally Posted by octoberful

That would bother me and so would definitely tell my T about it. But then again I have worked through my transferences about fears of abandonment, rejection... If I am shielding information from him that has an impact on our relationship, aside from avoiding my issues, it is kind of like I'm not letting him be his own person-like I'm trying to protect him from the unpleasantness of confrontation, don't trust what he will do with the information, trying to control how he feels, trying to be responsible for his emotions or actions, or project what he may be feeling/thinking/doing. It's a way of being in control but it also keeps the dependency alive. So, if I want to discuss something with him, I will do it and let him choose for himself how to feel and if/how to react-unpleasant or not. But that's me.

It's understandable to be self-protective and scared of conflict, but from what you wrote, it sounds like it may be an elephant in the room.

Yes, all of that. I do worry about maybe people's egos in general- that if they are hurt they will retaliate. I worry my T holds himself to very high standards and would be very covered and embarrassed to be called out on such a blatant lie. I cant help but worry he would be defensive. It kind of turns the table of therapy, so it becomes about him and why he lied whereas he is adamant it has to stay focused on me. I already feel selfish and weird being the focus, and he is my first therapist. I adore him, and I don't want any trouble. However, I feel so sad about just what it means that he can gaze in my eyes and decide to lie. It doesn't feel like that is what a therapy re;ationship should include.

[elisewin]

I would feel very uncomfortable with a T that I knew was lying for certain. It would bother me a lot and make me doubt everything he ever said. Same would go with anyone, not just with a therapist.

[SalingerEsme]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2

I think many Ts are good liars or lie frequently, it is pretty much part of being in this profession, I think. But there are differences between lying that a client's certain act did not make them angry, for example, and unnecessary lies and reality distortions. I would most likely confront him if it was something that affected or interfered with my therapy. If not, probably would not bother, but the awareness would definitely influence my sense of their credibility. My last T told me straight that sometimes he says things to clients that are not true about him if he think that's what the client wants to hear, e.g. things about his political opinions or interests. He even said that he lied about his professional experience when a prospective client asked if he had experience with their issue. I would not care about political views but definitely would not like if he told me he was very familiar with my problem and helped many people when, in reality, his knowledge and experience was insufficient.

Wow, this makes me so jaded to even read. I do think this lie was in harmony with your old therapist, in the sense that he decided to lie bc it was well within his rights as he understands them. The problem is we coincidentally have things in common from way back, and it is such a concrete lie that I got smacked in the face with it just going about my life. I never doubted him or suspected he lied, so it was a shock just to realize he went out of his way to do so. He seems very dedicated and emotionally present, but then this makes me wonder if it is all an act. You would have to be there to appreciate how deeply he makes eye contact, and his blue-grey gaze is so steadfast. It is really upsetting that a therapist is so skillful a liar he can look into your eyes sweetly while doing so.

Originally Posted by SalingerEsme

Yes, all of that. I do worry about maybe people's egos in general- that if they are hurt they will retaliate. I worry my T holds himself to very high standards and would be very covered and embarrassed to be called out on such a blatant lie. I cant help but worry he would be defensive. It kind of turns the table of therapy, so it becomes about him and why he lied whereas he is adamant it has to stay focused on me. I already feel selfish and weird being the focus, and he is my first therapist. I adore him, and I don't want any trouble. However, I feel so sad about just what it means that he can gaze in my eyes and decide to lie. It doesn't feel like that is what a therapy re;ationship should include.

But he may not want your help. So you think you're protecting him, but maybe he wants to know? Have you ever been in situations where someone was trying to protect you from knowledge about yourself, and then you said-why didn't you tell me-i would have wanted to know that sooner.

It could be one of his limitations; in that case, if he's a good T, he'll admit it and own it. If defensive, well you learned something new about him, but I can see how that could dissolve some of the idealization.

It may seem like you are doing him a favor, but you are not. Isn't he capable of looking at himself, owning his own behaviors? And if he's a great T like you said, he'd handle maturely and responsibly whether embarrassed or not. You're not letting him be himself. Protecting someone's ego isn't for them, it's for you. Telling someone how you feel and letting them choose how they feel is the opposite of selfish.

But i get why you feel that way. Sharing your thoughts on this could be a positive turning point in your therapy...

[SalingerEsme]

Originally Posted by SummerTime12

Is there any chance there’s some info that you don’t have that could change things? In the sense that he could be telling the truth? Whether the answer is yes or no, I would bring it up to him so it doesn’t eat away at you. I know that probably difficult to do, but I think it would be worth it. Maybe phrase in such a way as, “after you told me ____ at our last session, I happened to learn that ____, which led me to wonder how what you said could be true if that is also true. Is there some information that I’m missing here?”

I don’t know the full situation so that wording might not be great lol. Also, I’ve had a similar thing happen with my t, where he said something and based on facts I knew I thought it couldn’t be true. I never did bring it up to him but I wish I had.

No there's no chance. There's zero way it wasn't a flat-out lie.

I do like that is there information I am missing?

Maybe I could ask him if there is something I did that made him feel pressured to lie?

The thing is that he told this lie quite a while ago in a vivid conversation, and then I stumbled on the truth today. This is kind of my first processing of it, and I just want to email him and ask, but I know better and I won't.

[Xynesthesia2]

Do you have similar problems outside of therapy, that you choose not to confront people when they lie and manipulate, to avoid conflict, protect them, etc? If so, doing this with the T might turn out quite helpful and empowering.

[SummerTime12]

Originally Posted by SalingerEsme

No there's no chance. There's zero way it wasn't a flat-out lie.


I do like that is there information I am missing?


Maybe I could ask him if there is something I did that made him feel pressured to lie?


The thing is that he told this lie quite a while ago in a vivid conversation, and then I stumbled on the truth today. This is kind of my first processing of it, and I just want to email him and ask, but I know better and I won't.

Hmm, this is difficult. I would be struggling with this info too. Maybe a lot of Ts do lie, who knows, but I don’t think that makes it ok one bit. I mean I’m still an intern and only have 1 client, but I am honest with that client in an age-appropriate way (they’re 7). To outright lie to even my 7 year old client would feel wrong to me. But I also feel that way about lying to anyone, so there’s that. I would still lean towards bringing it up to him, but that’s just me. How effective can your therapy be going forward without working through this? Something for you to think about, the answer would be different for everyone.

Also I like the questions you came up with. Another way to approach it could be to refer back to that conversation like “remember when we talked about x and you said y? Was that really true/what did you mean by that?” I don’t know what we’re talking about here so I don’t know how comfortable you’d feel randomly bringing the conversation up, or if that approach even makes sense, just an idea.

[SalingerEsme]

Originally Posted by octoberful

But he may not want your help. So you think you're protecting him, but maybe he wants to know? Have you ever been in situations where someone was trying to protect you from knowledge about yourself, and then you said-why didn't you tell me-i would have wanted to know that sooner.

It could be one of his limitations; in that case, if he's a good T, he'll admit it and own it. If defensive, well you learned something new about him, but I can see how that could dissolve some of the idealization.

It may seem like you are doing him a favor, but you are not. Isn't he capable of looking at himself, owning his own behaviors? And if he's a great T like you said, he'd handle maturely and responsibly whether embarrassed or not. You're not letting him be himself. Protecting someone's ego isn't for them, it's for you. Telling someone how you feel and letting them choose how they feel is the opposite of selfish.

But i get why you feel that way. Sharing your thoughts on this could be a positive turning point in your therapy...

That is a really different world view from mine, and I appreciate hearing it. I love this forum for this reason. One thing about my T is he is not relationally trained, and steers pretty clear mostly of the spotlight being on him. Once in a great while, we will have kind of a touching or challenging time and address the relationship, but he doesn't like to. We had a situation like this before, and it was a thin ice time. I do see you are right, and I actually don't trust him him that much to hang in there, and it probably underestimates his ability to be self aware and real. I might just be so afraid of jeapordizing the relationship, I would rather meet a lie with a lie of omission to keep a fake peace. You gave me a lot to think about.

[SalingerEsme]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2

Do you have similar problems outside of therapy, that you choose not to confront people when they lie and manipulate, to avoid conflict, protect them, etc? If so, doing this with the T might turn out quite helpful and empowering.

absolutely yes- same problems. It could be empowering, but he could terminate me too or we could have an awkward impasse like we did before .

[InkyBooky]

Is there any chance that he lied to protect you in some way...even if he was misguided in doing so (e.g. you didn't really need such protection)? Or maybe he did it to protect the integrity of the therapy space... or the "safety bubble" that exists in session where you can share anything without concern for the T's personal experiences?

I've had a T who did something along these lines. She thought her lie would protect the therapy safe-space, but when I found out about the lie it actually did the opposite. I lost trust. However, once I realized and accepted that her intentions were good I ultimately chose to move past it. But I had to confront her about it...and it scared the hell out of me.

[SalingerEsme]

I think maybe he lied to protect his identity outside of therapy space. He realized ( and I did not ) that we actually did something together 20 years ago. He opted to completely lie about his membership in an organization, and claimed to be the member of a rival one. I had no reason to doubt or question his assertion, and accepted it as kind of biographical trivia. However, today I just happened to see an old roster in a different context unrelated, and he was right there on it front and center. I was like. . . why did you lie about this ? What the heck? It seems like a gratuitous lie or one that would be likely to be eventually found out, just given that we had this deep background in common. It could be he lied so that there would not be any kind of dual relationship, but that seems far- fetched given that 20 years separate that time from now, and we have nothing else and no one else in common. I do know him to be a contientious and caring therapist most of the time, and I do have a good amount of trust in him, he has come through for me many times, and I know him better now then way back when this lie occurred. I am confused. I do wonder if Octoberful is right, and maybe I should just ask him what was going on in that moment. I also wonder if it is something I should let go of, that is well past on the timeline.

[Xynesthesia2]

Originally Posted by SalingerEsme

absolutely yes- same problems. It could be empowering, but he could terminate me too or we could have an awkward impasse like we did before .

If he is usually thoughtful and considerate, I think it is unlikely to lead to termination. He might even be grateful that it's revealed and he no longer needs to lie. It is probably about how the confrontation is presented (same in everyday life, I think). SummerTime suggested some good things to say, I would definitely do it in a respectful manner rather than angry, unless expressing anger helps you. I would also put it in a way that I bring it up because it bothers me and I think it is unnecessary, that way it is not about him primarily. I would also only confront people about lies if I had actual evidence rather than pure suspicion.

If the T is insecure and that is why he is lying, that may be quite a different situation. I had a very insecure and manipulative T in the past and it was virtually impossible to confront or challenge him as he would not own anything and just turn it back onto me. I dumped that T for it. But it sounds like yours is otherwise decent and competent.

[InkyBooky]

Hmmm, I can kind of see how 'in the moment' he chose to lie about that so as not to muddy-up the waters of your therapy. It doesn't sound nefarious to me or even so much about protecting his own identity. Maybe he just really wanted you to see him as very separate and in no way "related" to him, so that the relationship didn't feel awkward or complicated (or possibly dual?).

I can totally see my current T doing this. She would probably lie if asked a direct question about something specific that she thought brought us too close in the realm of the outside world. Even if if happened decades ago. And honestly, she is right to do so. I struggle with people-pleasing, fear of confrontation, and feelings of wanting to protect others at my own expense. If I saw her in any way as a friend or 'real-world peer' I wouldn't be able to do therapy with her. Even though we technically are peers, we have to leave that outside the therapy room or it won't work for me. If that makes sense?

Maybe he once belonged to both organizations? Was part of one than switched?

Lots of fears here, I get it.

I learned honesty in a relationship is a gift. To feal safe enough to reveal your thoughts, and the other person is not so threatened but cares enough to see where you're coming from and understand your need to ask. And as was mentioned, he might be glad you told him. There's been times when I thanked someone for telling me about my behavior, as I hadn't thought of the impact on them.

But if you don't ask, you are only left with projections. The projections are about you, not him. And sorry to hear he didn't handle things well in the past.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by SalingerEsme

It is an inconsequential lie about something we both did way back in college that came up in chitchat, but it is a 100 percent lie told looking into my eyes and told very very smoothly. What would you do?

I would bring it up to him after I'd had a chance to reflect on it, and choose a time and introduction to be as "cool" (the opposite of hot, as opposed to a more popular meaning). For me the fact that it was inconsequential (as are most lies easy to tell, IME) would be the biggest thing. I don't think it would bother me the way it bothers you. I think most people tell lies about themselves, for one reason or the other. I am pretty sure my T has lied to me about some of his supposed experiences, either deliberately for a specific reason that has nothing to do with me, or because he, like most of us, lies to himself. I just don't think I care enough about whether his self-information (and he discloses a lot) is actually true. It's really about the emotion underlying his telling or whatever he says; the connection is not in the thing, but in the emotional experience that relates to the thing.

I'm a lawyer, and truth is not as easy to discern or as straightforward as many people belief from watching CSI. Forensic science is far from perfect, and even a simple crime scene often leaves the story with missing pieces or things that don't make sense. I don't have an attachment to truth in the way that a lot of people do, and i'm not generally offended by people lying to me. Usually lies are not deceptive in the sense that someone's trying to scam me by calling me about my breached Apple Icloud, and lies are also usually about the liar and not in service of disrespecting the listener. So all this informs my perspective and it may not apply to you, but I offer it in the spirit of perhaps seeing this less as some kind of tragedy and more like "stuff happens." I have a hard time believing this is a real monkey wrench in any relationship, including with a T.

I'm also reminded of the nonfiction meme, just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it isn't true. Truth is not always absolute, but dimensional. Lying is not always negative, but often loaded from the past, especially if you grew up with big time liars who cheated and stole and generally made everyone around them miserable.

I'd encourage you to bring it up with your T in as objective way as possible, emphasizing the inconsequential nature of what you believe. Asking for his reason after asking if it is true (I think you should always give someone an opportunity to explain before jumping on their lie), or asking any other question you need an answer to is also okay. I think it's a good opportunity to practice being confrontational in a non-confrontive way. This is possible, if you frame it as "this is the way I see it, wondering if there is another explanation or if I'm wrong".