fired by text

seesaw. Sounds like the dbt trainer needs more training, if she was so thrown by blue's questions?

Maybeblue,
I read all that you wrote, and I know you from here and read a lot that you write in posts. You are very articulate and you were able to succinctly tell the therapist what you needed. I don't know, she seems to be really anxious but I could be way off. I really think that she is intimidated by you, seriously. As someone else said, she seemed defensive. She said something like she only knows DBT, also. I honestly think she could be probably insecure or doesn't have a lot of practice.

Maybe she wants to help you but her issues are getting a hold of her.

If this is correct, then I think you might be able to see it as she is having issues,

Thank you. I'm going to talk to her on Tuesday. I am bringing my husband though. I don't want to drive home alone. He is pissed honestly. I had just calmed down from the session and we were on our first vacation in over a year. I had expressed major SUI to her on my last diary card. I think it was irresponsible for her to do it that way. I have no intention of doing anything, but if I had been in a worse spot and alone.

Holy moly. Your T is messed up. Physician heal thyself. You did an awesome job and should be proud. Your texts were clear, factual, concise, considerate, wise, and straightforward. Your T’s texts on the other hand were reactive, contradictory, unskilled, dysregulated, and unethical.
I’m impressed by the way you handled this situation.

That was an unprofessional reaponse from your DBT T. It was not wise mind at all to text you; she sounded like a sponsor more than a T.

You do not want her to take you back, nor do you want her back.

I would find a new T. She offered you a referral. I would request one on your own.

You can also ask for a CBT for dissociation and trauma instead of DBT, if the process of DBT feels too fast, term-laden, stoic, and robotic. DBT never worked for me. CBT for trauma had.

That was downright wrong what your DBT did.

It is never okay for someone to blame you for their own burnout; their burnout is from lack of their own boundaries!

Your T was unprofessional when she texted that response, and she was not using wise mind, nor was she in the right frame of mind. If she only knows "DBT coaching," then she should have CLEARLY stated what the boundaries are with regarding to your relationship, what is and is not acceptable, what the treatment goals entailed, and (based on ACTIVE LISTENING SKILLS) a reiteration of what you expressed to her so that she could clearly understand what you said to her. If she is overwhelmed, it is because she has issues, not you.

Furthermore, it is NOT HEALTHY for her to tell you that she is using "wise mind" to terminate you via text. If that is her interpretation of wise mind, then she's teaching you it all wrong. Your own wise mind would allow your emotions to be okay (you're upset with the T) while also stating that something is wrong with the way she approached you via text (your rational mind). It's okay for you to feel upset, and it is rational for you to be concerned about the way she handled that situation. To be proactive, request a new T, a new DBT group, and/or a new therapy such as CBT.

Thankfully, you'll have your husband there with you when you do speak. Do not let them gaslight you by telling you that it's your emotions and your instigations; you could have been flaming mad and completing out of your mind, and that would STILL not have been an appropriate response via text from a T.

That's not a healthy experience, that's the wrong example of what "wise mind" is, and that's a toxic relationship.

Why you still like her and want to work with her, I don't know, but like your husband, I'm pissed. That's just poor therapy.

Can only echo the other posts - it's completely unethical to terminate with you in a text. No t should ever do that and you're well rid of her since she shows you (and herself) so much disrespect.

The thing is that I like DBT. I like it a lot and I love the group. And it was helping. I like the philosophy. I liked the therapist. Also I know that I have problems with therapists. I know why. I experienced a bad trauma from a doctor a couple of years ago. It was a medical doctor, but the same kind of "I know better than you" thing exists in some therapists too. And it makes me reactive and afraid sometimes. My reactive and afraid can turn into excessive logic and frankly I picked up the DBT language quickly and discovered it can be used to argue quite effectively. I bet I can sound like a know it all snit sometimes. Setting the limit of only using text for coaching is OK. And the whole "I don't want to get burned out" is pretty much word for word from the treatment manual. And I really, really do not want to go through another intake somewhere else. I hate those.

But my wise mind also knows that terminating the therapeutic relationship through text message is ethically wrong and it also goes against the DBT philosophy of working through relationship problems rather than running away from them. So I don't know if I want to continue working with her or not. I know that I don't want to let her get out of looking me in the eye and explaining what she was thinking. I won't be gaslighted...or at least I won't be successfully gaslighted. She did agree to discuss it and see if working together could "be effective for both of us." Personally I believe in the DBT philosophy of working it out even if she doesn't. So either we will work that out and I will get some kind of assurance that this isn't going to happen again, or I will file a complaint with the ethics board.

@maybeblue

You sound very wise, and you may be right in staying with the DBT and seeing what happens with that T. I am a bit biased because I had bad experiences, but maybe you have good experiences. That is awesome that DBT works for you. You are really sounding healthy with all this! It gives me hope. Thank you. Please keep us posted on what happens.

I'm stuck in this cycle of trying to figure out what I did or didn't do that screwed up this relationship. I feel like a bad person. I don't know what to do to shut off the thoughts.

Can you apply to this problem some of what you have learned and liked in DBT? I've never done DBT but appreciate its principles and I think I use them kinda naturally in my everyday life. What is relevant here is trying to consciously reduce your vulnerability to your own emotions. It is not always good to dig into feelings. As was suggested earlier, you can create a new narrative to all this that's more focused on how you get good things out of this method in general and how you stood up to yourself, including not merely escaping now but going back to figure it out and continue to benefit for yourself. I think it is very possible to be selective in what we take as important in others' behavior and what to ignore because it is either not useful or is potentially harmful.

I've worked with many people (not necessarily in therapy but in my own profession) that are prone to power games, gaslighting, hypocrisy and defensiveness. I often don't just dump them for their negative traits when otherwise they are very competent in some area and we can be very productive together when we focus on the collective positives and benefits. Often they don't even try to bully me or stop after some initial trials, because they see I am not responding to it and just continue to focus on what works. Of course there are the more dysfunctional jerks (one of my ex-Ts was like that, I think) - those are better to be left alone, even if we lose some investments. But otherwise - you know, take what works and leave the rest. Not always easy to achieve internally, but we can grow even just by practicing it, I think doing so really enhances interpersonal effectiveness and the resulting sense of satisfaction/accomplishment can feed back on emotional state positively.

You said you like the DBT group - can you interact with some of your peers between formal therapy meetings? Maybe that would help and perhaps some others could share their own ambivalent feelings, no-so-great experiences and how they approach overcoming them.

I agree with most of the posters totally wrong to terminate you by text. She deserves to have her license revoked. How horrible, i'm so sorry she's done that to you. There is no excuse to terminate by text and it's so mean. Hugs

Oh. My God.

I don't even have words...what a rude, thoughtless, crazy, rotten, cruel thing to do to a client. Just...wow. If you see her again please let her know how horribly unprofessional and mean she has been.

Or print out this thread and mail it to her.

I hate to think that you ever have to see her again.

Her behavior certainly doesn't reflect well on her. I don't really know about this "wise mind" business, but describing her actions as precipitating from something "wise" seems contradictory.

I've never really understood when people say therapists fire clients. Surely you can't be fired by someone you are paying. When I resign from a job, I say I quit the job, I don't say I fired my boss.

Anyway, if your texts sent her over the edge, she must be pretty fragile and unable to withstand even the most civil of conflicts. That seems kind of pathetic considering she's supposed to be the one teaching you DBT skills.

I tend to think her reference to using "wise mind" was a cop out. It was like she tried to use a sneaky appeal to authority to justify her behavior so that you would feel like you had to accept it as right. But just because she said she was using "wise mind" does not mean she was in the right; that is a fallacy.

I wonder if the people she consulted also advised her to quit via text.

Think of it like this...

Your T quit her job on you, you being the paying consumer. She fired herself. She quit via text. She did not even give you two weeks' notice. She is at fault here, not you.

But, relationships end all the time. Poor matches are the most common reason.

Perhaps her expectations for boundaries were not made clear to you. Perhaps her own issues with her job stressed her out, not you. Maybe she received a lot of texts from multiple clients that day and quit on multiple people. Maybe she treated you like the scapegoat. Who knows.

If texting was the communication platform, then it is easy to send a bunch of texts when long texts get broken up into two or more texts per long text, and so the T's oversight for job requirements was off. Phone calls or email would have been a better business solution, which is not your fault. They are not even using wisdom for their own business, so how can they teach others that? Texting should only be used for short communications like directions. Why set clients up to fail via text communications in the first place? Now what I said is wise because I would forsee quality assurance for clients and smooth operations. She knows her clients are struggling. Email for coaching and phone for emergencies would be better solutions.

Do not take on the blame here. CBT works faster than DBT in terms of coping. I do not know much about DBT but it seems like a slow process to cope for those with rigid personalities. For things like this, CBT could help if your personality is flexible. That is one of the differences between the two, aprt from CBT being a faster solution to cope and easier to grasp than the long-winded terms affiliated with DBT.

At any rate, if DBT works for you, then try using it to deal with this. If it is not working, then they are teaching you incorrectly or you are not grasping it or you may benefit from the socialization in the DBT group but not the DBT itself. Basically, you are feeling sad and hurt from this experience, and rationally, your T was unethical. The institution that set up texts for coaching is unreasonable with expecting their therapist to answer texts and therefore setting clients up to fail.

Maybe you could have texted less. Maybe sui mentions via text re diary cards was a boundary violation not explained to you, that those things require hotlines or in-person help or a visit to the ER or some alternative not meant for texts. But was that explained to you at all? If not, or if they see sui like they see negative thoughts, where both can be coped with solely through their DBT plan, then that is setting you up to fail when you do not have all the tools.

I never mentioned sui in text. I had it on my diary card because I was supposed to keep track of it. Actually I had called her and she replied to me in text. And so then I replied to her texts.

I have some traits of BPD, but not the unstable relationship one. I find CBT difficult. The thing that I was finding helpful about DBT was the mindfulness stuff. But I just started. So I kind of suck at it.

@maybeblue

Do not beat yourself up. When we learn something new we all make mistakes.... That is why we are learning. Thanks for clarifying the sui diary card thingy.

I am glad that mindfulness helps. There are groups and treatments for only mindfulness, if the rest of the DBT does not apply to you.

I cannot do mindfulness meditation because it worsens my conditions. Being aware and cognizant, that I can do.

In DBT terms, however, mindfulness is about learning empathy that you lack for yourself and/or for others.

Mindfulness in other venues means different things. It all depends on what your target areas are.

Can you stick with the DBT group and find a new T while reporting the T who quit on you? That sounds like the best route for you, since DBT is going well but the T is not.

Mindfulness in DBT terms is about teaching you empathy for yourself and others. When you lack empathy for yourself, it affects others. When others are reactive to our own pain, mindfulness teaches you how to see how your actions may affect others or how others respond to you while also showing you how you respond to and/or contribute to others. Some people who are prone to internalizing others' beliefs about themselves will react negatively and emotionally instead of proactively because mindfulness or awareness or empathy are lacking. Being too needy is a behavior that stems from lack of empathy for one's self and in turn lack of self-efficacy to problem-solve so that we do not burden others in excess. That said, in terms of real emotional abuse and microaggressions, the best option is to have enough self-empathy to reduce stereotype threat and proactively assert one's rights by filing a formal complaint against discriminatory or unethical practices. Mindfulness makes you aware of situations, but there are times when you need not blame yourself for someone else's actions. In your case, the T was wrong, you deserve better than that, and you deserve more empathy for yourself. Also, the texting platform was their idea and their issue. Thwy did not put enough boundaries in place to prevent T burnout or prevent excessive client use. The boundaries were not made clear, which is on them.

The part of mindfulness that I think would be particularly helpful for me would be being present in the current moment...living my life now instead of thinking about the past and ruminating about the future. Anyway, CBT doesn't seem to work very well for me because when I'm depressed I have all kinds of thoughts that are screwed up, but then when I'm not depressed they are all gone. But attempting to change them when I'm depressed just makes me feel like the therapist is blaming me: "you are thinking wrong."

The emotional regulation part applies to me a lot. And I don't think improving interpersonal effectiveness hurts anyone. The problem is that the group is run by the same therapist that I do individual therapy with. So I can't do the group without also doing therapy with her.

I hate the meditation part of mindfulness too. Imagining water dropping in a pond or whatever just makes me either angry or anxious. And trying to make my mind blank is next to impossible. But I have noticed that simply focusing on my emotion rather than fighting it doesn't make it worse. It might make it slightly better.

If your T is running the group, good luck in staying. The hardest part for some individuals is walking away from those you grew attached to for whatever reason. You could say to your T, "I am using my wise mind and exiting a toxic relationship you created between us, and I am proactively going to find another group and T that does not terminate unethically." That would be one exit plan. Another would be to simply leave and shake the dust off your heels. Staying in a relationship like that speaks to your lack of empathy for yourself. It also speaks to your fears of letting go of a dead-end relationship. CBT teaches similarly as wise mind when you aclnowledge your emotions and irrational thoughts. The Gestalt method helps to shed light on what irrational thoughts exist in the relationship. To proactively change those irrational thoughts while showing yourself empathy and looking at your emotions is wise mind. You need not beat yourself up for irrational thoughts and their connected emotions. Living in the present and not the past means you will move on and find a new T or you will stay and risk this interaction again, if the odds are in your T's favor. If you are able to work it out with your T, great. But staying is a risk. You have to be mindful to yourself what that risk is.

I agree. Staying is not going to make me feel good about myself, unless she were to actually apologize and truly want to repair the relationship. And I suppose to be honest that is what I am hoping for...but not really expecting. And if that does not happen, I will feel better about myself for facing her and actually listening to what the problem is. And telling her face to face that the text was a bad move. I just wish it was easier to find a therapist that both has the skills I need and also is willing to deal with my emotions and my fear of loss of control. It seems very unfair to punish a client for demonstrating symptoms for what they came to therapy for in the first place.

@maybeblue

There are a lot of therapists who are trained in DBT as well as other things. They even have a DBT for those with obsessive-compulsive issues, which differs a bit, I think. I've met so many who have been trained in DBT and CBT - trauma and dissociation - not so much. So, there are other options! They even have DBT at the VA for a lot of veterans. Even though it doesn't work for me, it works for a lot of people like you, other veterans I know, etc. You really do have options in that area.

I took DBT for a year about 15 years ago; it was NOT administered properly, so I cannot speak to its efficacy for me. For others I've known at the VA, it works great for them. It's administered by a team of two T's, and everyone has their own individual T. Every group and T are run differently. For veterans, there is no texting. There's different online apps that anyone (including you) can download for different things. I think the VA has a PTSD app, a mindfulness app, and some other apps that are completely free to use. But no texting, no online support groups, just the app. The apps are kind of cool, and you pick and choose what works for you. Ideally, you'd show your T your progress on the apps and other homework.

Anyway, your T is not the only T in your area that has skills in DBT; chances are, there are other T's in your area (maybe not other groups, but you can always ask). Some people do DBT without a group, too. You can maybe go on the BPD forum to ask some of the others for tips, suggestions, etc. They would have more expertise in DBT in that forum, I'm sure, since DBT was initially created for BPD, but has been extended to many other areas of mental illness today. It works for some, but not for others. For you, it sounds like it is something you are benefiting from, and that's awesome!

You're brave for facing your T. That's good! Just be prepared for potential gaslighting, and what you would say in response to that without reacting too harshly or self-defeating (i.e., blaming yourself). For example, if you face her and she apologizes, that's great. But if she says something like, "You didn't respect my boundaries; you texted too much; you weren't mindful about how your actions would affect me; I was using my wise mind to end a toxic relationship you started" - meaning you, the client, then those words in whatever shape or form they come out will probably cause a bunch of emotions within you, and those emotions may be too strong for you to proactively assert your own boundaries and the wrong that she had done, though you may be able to say those things while screaming or crying or making threats or whatever other reactive emotions that can occur when someone gaslights you, or you will take all the blame, cry, walk out, and feel sui from that situation - those are all potential reactions that can happen when a T is gaslighting you, even if there is some truth embedded within a lot of victim-blaming on the client, when the client was NOT at fault for everything.

So, the best way to prep for gaslighting is to do what lawyers do: Have a mock trial, only, with the DBT skills you've learned. Since I don't know much about DBT (I mainly know CBT), then you can ask others here on PC who may know about DBT. If you make a post in the BPD forum, you're likely to get more responses than here in the Psychotherapy forum, unless there's some forum for DBT that I'm unaware of, in which case, try there. Of course, we'll still respond here to you (((safe hugs))), but if you want more direct support for DBT, especially in this case, I'd try posting in a different forum where others are likely to catch your thread and respond more quickly.

I hope my responses don't frustrate you, but I'm doing the best I can with limited knowledge. I care though. I don't want to see you hurt by that T. I'm sure your husband feels the same way, maybe, which I'm basing on one of your posts where you said your husband was "pissed." I hope your husband can help you face the T when you go there together.

More power to you for being brave. Just prepare in advance to do the best you can do with the skills you have now. Prepare in advance for any response, and assert yourself with boundaries of your own - for you!

There is a massive problem when a client is punished for demonstrating the symptoms that brought them to therapy in the first place. If this happens , the therapist is repeating something that is dysfunctional. That is neither healthy or therapeutic and indicates that the therapist has issues. Do not be gaslighted into not seeing what the reality is. If she cannot accept any responsibility for her part in what's gone wrong , it will tell you all you need to know. I know that's really difficult though and it will hurt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Out There There is a massive problem when a client is punished for demonstrating the symptoms that brought them to therapy in the first place. If this happens , the therapist is repeating something that is dysfunctional. That is neither healthy or therapeutic and indicates that the therapist has issues. Do not be gaslighted into not seeing what the reality is. If she cannot accept any responsibility for her part in what's gone wrong , it will tell you all you need to know. I know that's really difficult though and it will hurt.

I agree entirely. It is nothing short of tragic that many mental health professionals are profoundly imbalanced people who refuse to look at themselves honestly, but are all too willing to gaslight their patients. A sick power-trip.

OMG. I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I had to jump in here.

First, NO - you did not do anything wrong. In fact, the paragraph where you talk about being overwhelmed during the session because of your emotions, tell her that you didn't understand what she was doing, and ask for her to be more clear and collaborative - WOW. I thought that was amazing and perfect. I mean, seriously, SUPER GOOD JOB on a) figuring out what was going on with you and b) ASKING FOR WHAT YOU NEED.

I found it very respectful, you didn't come across as blaming or accusing her or as hostile, and I would imagine that most therapists would be glad to have this. It reminds them about how you work and what you need, and would help them work with you in a more effective way. It's great!!!

When she says this: "I am a DBT therapist. It's all I know how to do. So you can be assured we aren't doing supportive therapy."

It feels like a red flag to me. Are there really therapists out there who are just DBT and literally don't know ANY other therapy skills? That seems so limited and improbable to me. Honestly, it sounds like she has a huge pile of her own issues that she hasn't dealt with, and might be using this as a really useful way to avoid getting triggered by other people? Like, "oh no, you have emotional problems - well that's not really my domain. I can tell you what skill to use, but don't expect me to actually summon any kind of empathy, because that's not really what I'm trained to do. Sorry, Charlie!"

It frustrates me, and again, I'm really surprised. It seems very... weird and offputting and de-humanizing to me (but I haven't done DBT myself, so grain of salt!)

But THIS... THIS RIGHT HERE: "I don't want to get burned out by answering too many texts or between session phone calls."

OMG - this just sets me off. It sounds like she's making YOU responsible for HER emotional state. It's not your responsibility to help her not get burned out, that's on her... she can choose to not respond to texts, she can do self-care, she can ask you to not text as much or give you a limit (on content or number of texts). But it really, really bugs me to see her talking about her own emotional state here, as if you did something wrong.

You didn't! Of course you didn't! She's responsible for her own mental health - your job is to show up and work on your own stuff.

(This may be a bit of a trigger for me, so apologies if I'm a bit... over-enthusiastic here )

I do think that... in retrospect... you might have held off on the discussion (after she posted that) until you got to session. It feels like a lot to try to unpack via text, especially when she's saying that she doesn't want to burn out. But, I still think it's her responsibility to deal with that - not to just throw you out!

Like, I'd expect her to say something like, "Good points. Let's talk about it at the next session." - that's it! Fairly simple, not burnout-inducing, a polite way to say, "Hey, I don't want to have this discussion via text" - plus then you guys could have actually discussed what was going on in a more productive way (since it can be hard to understand things via text, right?) - easier to clarify and get into details.

And... oh wait, I missed this part. So, you literally ended with this: "I am sorry if I was too long winded. I don't need to talk about it more right now. Thank you for not dumping me." -- and her response was to dump you (via text)?!?!?!?!?

I am so incredibly speechless at this point. And, I am so sorry! That is just.. incomprehensible to me. Like, seriously... I'm floored.

I know, you said you don't want to quit. I get that! Are you sure you're OK with continuing working with this person, who honestly is likely to cause you more pain (based on her reactions so far)? I mean, she's not likely to get *better*... my experience has been that therapists with red flags only get worse, even when you actively try to work on things and fit into what they want/need from you as a client, this is about unresolved stuff on her part and it just... isn't likely that she's going to transform herself into a good therapist while working with you. (I'm so sorry!)

"So did I do anything wrong or rude?"

Nope! I thought you were respectful and doing your best to make your needs known. I think your therapist handled things incredibly badly, and honestly, doesn't sound like she's done the work she needs to to be an effective, good therapist. She doesn't sound like someone who should be seeing people in therapy! Even in DBT... omg... especially in DBT (where I'm assuming that the majority of people struggle with BPD-type issues, which can be really hard for Ts to deal with) - she just seems... incompetent.

I'm so sorry. I don't really have any great advice. I'd dump her too, but I know that's not what you want. *hugs*