Couch 217: The Order of the Phoenix couch

I guess we are the proof that opposites attract!

How is it creepy? It's something that her T has suggested we do (or something similar). If she doesn't understand how saying "I don't like you" or "I hate you" affects other people, who is going to teach her? I've said the same when she's said similar things to H.

LT...keep in mind una's old aunties were the witches in Macbeth.

This gardening things a doddle. I javent been out in the garden a lot lately just to water because its way too cold. I checked on my plants yesterday and one of my hibiscus has a least 7 buds. Not bad for stincking it inthe ground watering it and picking a few bugs off. I will post pictures of my first ever flowers i have grown.

Well, the creepiness for me is that it sounds like my aunts (and mother) trying to shame the little one. That was the ONLY parenting trick in their arsenal (besides hitting). So it was creepy because it was the only time they tried to sound nice, when in reality they were seething mad. So it really rang false, and it was just a giant guilt trip.

Hey, the kid is just saying they dont like something.

Thats where manatees verbal validation comes in. I HEAR YOU. YOU DONT LIKE THIS. THATS OKAY. LETS DO THIS INSTEAD. Or however it works. Nothing in there about YOUR feelings or anyone elses. She is NOT capable of making that jump yet. She is just trying to feel, express, and manage her own feelings. Empathy is a ways off. Verbal validation will teach her empathy by example.

Youre SAD??? That has GOT to be the LAST thing ANY kid wants to hear. Im getting upset hearing it, and it's "just" transference!

Wow, if I hadn't had to drop Developmental Psych this summer I might have learned something about this (when kids become capable of making that jump).

I'm seeing both sides of this, of course, right in the middle unable to pick a side, that's Artie.....!

I think for her to be called an abuser she would first have to understand the meaning of what she is doing and I don't believe she understands so in my eyes to can't be an abuser. She is however expressing her feelings and she is entitled to her own feelings whatever reasons are behind those. LT you may want to think back to your mother from your description of her. It sounds like she was always trying to get you to act the way she wanted you to. Maybe just allow her to be herself and express her feelings as you said in the past she sided with you so I'm sure things will change this is just a phase she's going through. Even though it doesn't feel good to you right now you have to remember that you are the parent and she is only a child who is lacking in the social skills area. I'm not trying to downplay your feelings cuz I'm sure they are valid and you have a reason to be upset but I thank you also need to remember to put it in context of where it's coming from.

It’s really unfortunate, una, that you had bad childhood experiences. I’m sorry you had to go through that. But research shows that children with ASD need to be taught social skills explicitly. Learning empathy is something that doesn’t come naturally to LTs daughter. Also, you know LT well enough to know that she really internalizes the things that people say. Part of being supportive sometimes means putting our own issues aside and being empathetic to another person’s experience. I can’t imagine how hurt I would be if I had a child say some of the things that LTs daughter says to her. That doesn’t diminish what you experienced, but it doesn’t make LT creepy either.

eta Artie, kids typically learn empathy pretty early on, but they don’t master it until their teenage years.

Just clarifying that I'm not calling her an abuser, and neither was my T. He was commenting on how her words might affect me.


As for telling her how others might react to what she says, it's like telling a kid why hitting is bad, that it hurts someone else. Parenting a kid on the autism spectrum is different from parenting a neurotypical kid. She's probably 3-4 years behind socially. So she's more like a 5- or 6-year-old. She doesn't intrinsically understand that saying something hurtful will hurt someone. I want to let her know that it hurts me in the hopes that she won't alienate others in her life who may not be so understanding (like classmates). Part of a parent's job is to teach lessons like that. Telling her how she affects me helps her understand, because she may not get it on her own. I may say (gently) "How would you feel if someone said that to you?" That's my way of trying to teach her empathy. It doesn't come naturally to her. She's an awesome kid, but she doesn't understand some things in the way that a NT kid would.

Session today.

P: I have a personal appointment at 1 tomorrow. Could you do 11 or 5 instead?
Me: Does one work better for you?
P: Which do you prefer?
Me: 5.
P: Would you be okay with 11?
Me: (laughing at the absurdity of this conversation) Why didn't you just say? Just put me down for 11.

I think there are several things going on and getting mixed up. I tried to find an article I read about a guy whose kid was upset because his mother wasn't there (she was on a business trip or something) and kid was throwing a tantrum, and the guy(dad) both set limits on the kid but also sat with him and empathized about it is sad when mom isn't there and so on but that son couldn't throw things (I think - I can't find it - I think it was on psych today). I do think it is important to both set limits on behavior and not turn the kid's feelings into needing to take care of the parent. That is where I think things get a little mixed up.

I'm not a parent, but I imagine it must be hurtful to hear your child say those things to you and to not take them personally. You pour all your love and care into this little being and they turn on you.

And yet who here hasn't criticized, *****ed about, and even disliked a parent from time to time? I believe most parents really are well meaning even if incredibly off base.

Thanks, SD. Exactly, it's the thing about setting limits. Like my D can be angry at something but, say, not hit me. I try to empathize with her feelings and get her to use her words while also not having her be physically or emotionally hurtful or destructive (like throwing things). Like, "Yes, I understand you hate being stuck at home and want to see the kids at school. I don't like being stuck at home either. But we have to keep people safe."


I'm not trying to turn it into her taking care of me, just trying to explain how words can be hurtful to people.

Thanks, NP. It is hard, especially when I'm really trying.


I mean, it's not that much different from anyone, of any age, in life, where you give them your love, then they turn on you.

Sorry. I dont have kids. I dont know what im talking about.

Today's session I *****ed about my mother. Then we discussed how she means well but sometimes ends up hurting me with her "help" and how I don't ever say anything to her about it because I don't want to hurt her feelings.

This is where I think things may be getting off - you are both trying to empathize and reason - whereas I think it might be an idea to empathize, not let the child throw things (or whatever - that is just an example), go on with what you need to do, and not try to reason at that point. When you start reasoning like that at that point -to me is seems it puts an emphasis on you and others rather than her feelings about whatever. The reasoning part could come later. Or at some point when she is doing well and then praise along with reasoning - like good job for playing quietly alone - right now everyone needs to stay safe and apart" sort of thing.

I think on this it can be a difference in what love one wants to give versus the love the other wants. Sometimes those don't match up.
I am not saying that is happening with you and your daughter - more just something I thought of when I read it.

Yeah, this is exactly what I meant. Thoughtfully acknowledge the feeling without trying to reason or diminish or "fix" it in the moment. It helps for me to describe the situation and name the feeling (usually frustrated, sad, or angry) and then purposefully stop myself from saying anything else. When I can, I try to put myself in her shoes for a minute, just kind of sit with the emotion with her. For an older kid, I think the reasoning can come later when she has calmed down or in a situation where she is asking a question or just kind of low-key complaining, not when she's really upset.

I've read some parenting stuff where they say that being the safe space for your kid to completely lose it is actually kind of a compliment. Like kids who keep it together at school (out of fear of rejection or punishment) and bring out the big emotions at home. I think this is sort of the "all behavior is communication" school of thought.

I think if you want a kid to HAVE empathy for others, you have to fill their empathy bucket. By GIVING them empathy. By showing them empathy. Then they just reach into the bucket and hand it out.

If you say, "how would YOU like it if someone wanted YOUR toy?!", all youve done is fill their shame (and confusion) bucket. An yeah im good at handing THAT out, i got plenty to go around.

I was thinking the other day, honestly, i have NO manners at all! The only time i was "taught" manners is when i was dressed up and an aunt or somebody said something to me, and i didnt know what to say back, and my mother literally slapped me upside of the head and said, "how come you dont got no manners?! Youre supposed to say thank you!" Ah, good times! Sorry, i know you all have heard that story before. I would be surprised af that my mother was even talking to me, paying attention to me - that hardly EVER happened.

Nobody ever told me to say hello to everybody? some people? when you walk in to a party, or when you leave. Whats the darn rule? If i ever see another party in my lifetime.

Eta - hope i didnt mess things up again after you guys wrote such purdy stuff! But im glad you think this is important. I think as a child passes thru the latency stage, it is critical that the parent who has non-favored status play the "safe" role. Thats probably freudian.

Hi couch,
Was trying to take a break from here and social media. Been a really hard past few days.

TW for SA and SH

My mom and one of my older brothers found out and I've talked to them. My mom asked me if it'd be helpful to talk to my T about what's going on, but I don't know if that's weird or not.

SheHulk, I hope this comes across not too harshly, but you've got to get rid of this guy. He doesn't respect you. There's something wrong with him that he keeps doing this. There's no way that your kids aren't being affected by this dynamic. You have CPS involvement. Take advantage of that to get away from this situation for good. Why is he even still allowed in your home? Isn't CPS aware of the SA? I know it's scary to think of raising four kids by yourself, but is it really any worse than what you're going through now, self-harming so badly that you need emergency care? The fact that he knows you do this in reaction to his behavior, yet he still keeps doing it, tells you all you need to know about his character. He's never going to stop this. He's a selfish prick. I know it's hard, but you need to make the decision that's best for both you and your children.

I write this as a person sexually assaulted by my partner-now-ex 3 times over 27 years and I still haven't gotten past it, so there's some level of understanding here.

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I've read this before as well, and it helped, so thanks for reminding me of it. Because my D *does* generally hold it together at school (when it's in person). I think of a time when she was in preschool and had tripped and bumped her head, so they had to call us. They said they were concerned because she actually cried, and they never see her cry. I was like, "What??? She never cries there? She cries all the time at home!"


And I recall ex-MC talking about how kids test their parents (tied into how I was sort of testing him), like, "Will you still love me if I do/say this? OK, what about this?" Like to know that they're safe and have unconditional love.