[Omers]

Ugh,
Last night H and I had a bad fight. I emailed T and as per our agreement cc’d T2. At the end of the email I let her know that a lot of stuff in the email is new to her (we’ve only had two sessions) and it is OK to ask questions, please do not push for emotion and typically with something like this I react poorly to sympathy/empathy/nurturing. OK, I am not the type to put dumb thoughts in someone’s head just to be stupid! If I am warning you not to do these things then this is how I perceive you. Ugh. She wrote back... thanks for the warning, I think I will just be me and see what happens. She did cc T1. OMG I want to strangle her already. Container... I want an F*ing container! I do not want some fruity, bubbly guppy drink to welcome me... I want a damn container... I want T1... T1 is the epitome of a container.
I am planning on having my credit card info or cash to hand her so I can walk out at any point. I don’t need more stupid right now.
Maybe T1 was right, I just don’t like women.

[Lostislost]

As far as I know, Ts don't really take orders..they sort of have to be themselves for the process to work? To challenge our mindset, and help us change and grow. It does sound like a frustrating place to be in right now though.

[Omers]

Thanks. It is how all my previous T’s have been with me. It is not how T1 is with me. I’ve gotten kind of spoiled.

I did send a message to T1 with T2 cc’d sending up a warning flare. We will see...

[LostOnTheTrail]

I'm sorry you aren't being heard, Omers.
It is absolutely OK to ask for what you need, even if it doesn't seem like T2 is capable of helping you with that. Do you have a session with T1 soon?

[comrademoomoo]

Whilst I can understand that her response is unwelcome for you, I think it is a brave and authentic thing for her to say to you. How can she be anyone other than herself? Would you like her to present a facade in an attempt to be a person you want her to be? I imagine you would detect that insincerity in a millisecond and withdraw from her as a result. If you dislike women, she is working in very difficult ground because she can only be the person you dislike. This is the work isn't it? You will struggle with wanting her to be a clone of your other therapist and when she inevitably fails to be that, you have to examine your responses and feelings to allow things to shift a bit.

I dislike men and would not work with a man again (my first therapist was a man). I would want to attend sessions to berate him and air my misandry and disgust for him and other men. I would not be interested in moving past those responses and it would not be therapy. I am impressed that you want to move beyond your misogyny (is that too strong a word for your feelings?) and are willing to be vulnerable enough to do that.

[Omers]

@LostOnTheTrail I see T1 again the 14th.
@comrademoomoo thank you for a different perspective. Yes, I have strong radar for insincerity as well. Honestly, I had NO clue how right T1 was when he said our very first session that perhaps I don’t do well with women until I started with T2. Even with my second session with T2 going well she did, very gingerly, mention “you really don’t do well with women do you?” So she knows she is in a tough spot. I am not sure I am needing or wanting her to be a clone of T1. I think I, at least in this instance, want then not contradicting eachother. I feel like I am trying to practice things learned with T1 and getting punished for it.
And... with everything going on right now I am extremely volatile. In hind sight this might not have been the best time to bring someone new in... but we couldn’t see the future.

[nottrustin]

This all sounds very difficult. In my experience working with 2 Ts can in itself be challenging. To work with somebody you're already apprehensive about working can understandably be REALLY hard. Congrats for trying to work through it.

I'm my experience, it is hard not to compare when one has two Ts, especially if one is long term. I did it a lot and I had no personal issues with T2. She just wasn't T1. I had to remind myself that T1 and I had a totally different relationship in the very beginning than we did later on. I was expecting T2 to know me and behave like T1 did even though my relationship and T1s understanding of me had 9 years to develop. Also, when I started to see T2 I was a much different person than I had been years before in therapy. With T1 I trusted her so much that I didn't question her and when she made a mistake I didnt tell her because I didn't want to hurt her feelings. I know she wanted me to because the one time I did near the end she was thankful I had the courage to tell her. I was only able to do it because I had had a similar situation with T2 and found it safe.

I still on occasion wish T2 was more like T1 but I work through it because as T2 says, nobody will ever be T1 to me. she is the bar I will always compare Ts to

[Salmon77]

She wrote back... thanks for the warning, I think I will just be me and see what happens.

Honestly I think this is a fine reply. She will be who she is and do her job her way. You seem very ready to blame her for whatever your reaction is—you have decided in advance that it will be bad—but really your reaction comes from you, not her.

On the other hand, there's really no reason to continue seeing her if you don't want to or don't find it helpful. It's perfectly valid to decide that you don't like her or the way she works.

[Elio]

I agree that you were completely in the right to ask for what you asked not for. See, it seems to me you didn't ask for what you wanted, you asked for what you didn't want. And I feel T2 was way out of bounds for not honoring that boundary. Cuz, lets be honest, isn't saying "hey don't do x", establishing a boundary? Sure T2 needs to be who she is, she can be that while still respecting a boundary.

Where you able to articulate that you were looking for a container, a place to let out the energy that built up from the exchange with your husband? You state in this thread that you want a container (very clearly) but did you say that in your email? It's great to get support when one needs some, but sometimes we get so charged by exchanges we really do just need to vent them out to find the calm again. So it's completely ok to just need a container. You've been working with your T1 for a while now, so more than likely that type of understanding has come about over the building of your relationship there.

You do not include her actual response; so it is a bit hard to know if your "not working well with women" is clouding your perception of her response. It's possible that someone else may have seen her response as being a container. It's also possible that early on with T1, he may have made similar faux pas; however, being a man, you gave him more space to make those types of mistakes. It's also possible that being a man, he doesn't use the same type of nurturing/supportive statements that set you off that women use. Women and men in general do communicate differently and there maybe simply something different in the way a typical woman communicates that is associated with something inside you.

TBH - I can't have a feminine T (male or female), I struggle with femininity. My T is female and clearly female; however, she doesn't wear makeup, perfume, and for therapy, she dresses pretty sporty/outdoorsy. There was a period of time our first year, that she had her nails done up. I almost had to quit if that didn't go away. It did and they haven't come back. I figure she must have had some event or something. It is always a distraction when she wears something more feminine. As a female at birth gender non-confirming (leaning towards FTM), I know a lot of these feelings/issues come from gender stuff. I'm far from being able to or willing to tackle those issues. So -- kudos to you for trying to explore where you have issues with women.

[Flinders40]

Respectfully, why are you working with two therapists? Does one make up for something the other lacks?
In my opinion, its an approach/ situation that is nearly certain to fail.

[Omers]

Oh Elio, thank you. T1 has responded to one of my emails but I think he is reading them out of sequence because his reply makes no sense what so ever. The first blow up with T2 we established was me feeling my boundary was violated... I clearly stated in that exchange that I was triggered and needed to step away and she asked again for me to do what was triggering me. T1 never wants me to feel pressured by him in any way. T1 wants me to tell him if he hurts me or does something that makes me uncomfortable so he can stop. He said both of those the very first session and kept putting them out there until he trusted me to tell him. From the first session T1 has been all about containing things so as not to reinforce trauma neuro pathways. T2 is very much about express emotions!!!! We’ve only had two sessions. She has no clue my level of trauma or my reactions.

As for T2 I am trying really hard not to tell her what to do. But giving a heads up that hey this approach is going to cause problems? I thought it would be helpful to know and would get a more responsive reply especially from a woman. Granted she is naturally a very warm, bubbly, nurturing, girlie girl... golden retriever puppy? Her actual response was Omers, “Thanks for the heads up. I think I will just be myself and see how that goes. ” (cut and pasted in its entirety).

As for women... I grew up in NY where I didn’t have much problem with women, it is a more gender equal state and tends to be more blunt. There are several female T’s that write on public platforms that I think I would do great with BUT they are NOT from the US and clearly are culturally different. I currently live in the Midwest and the female culture is different. These women are like cotton candy toppings on a double strength Koolaid float. OMG the nurture-y, warm fuzzy, sympathy crap gives me the emotional equivalent of a toothache on good days... actually I think when I had a root canal and none of the Novocain worked it was more welcoming.
ok, visual...

T1 surrounds me with security, safety, boundaries and acceptance and says “when you feel safe”.

T2 oh, show me the feels! What would the feels look like!! Can we make the feels more feel-y?!!! Can we make the feels brighter and more fluid?!! Oh the feels are really beautiful! (Yes, seriously... and it was a picure about CSA... yes, I’m an artist but... can we show *some* sensitivity to the CONTENT???)

I know me. I know I can blow up physically or intellectually and really do some damage. I am trying SO hard to make this work because T1 thinks it would be good for me. T1 knows her very well and is her supervisor.

My two closest friends one is non-gendered (which having known them forever I can say neither gender norm fits them) the other is MTF. The other women I do well with typically come from “old world” cultures, strong survivalist backgrounds or something similar... not the mani pedi and get our hair done every week sort.

[Omers]

Originally Posted by Flinders40

Respectfully, why are you working with two therapists? Does one make up for something the other lacks?
In my opinion, its an approach/ situation that is nearly certain to fail.

T1 said at the end of a session that if he could offer me one thing to help me heal right now it would be a strong female mentor. T1 and T2 know eachother, T1 is T2’s supervisor... so the next session I brought up what he said and asked him what he thought of me seeing T2. He lit up like a Christmas tree. Other than gender T2 is an art therapist and I have used art to express myself with T1. He is not an art therapist but he responded really well and it became a way of processing things with him. I am to include both in any communications between sessions and they have full permission to discuss anything (which I am OK with)

[comrademoomoo]

Maybe working with a mentor rather than a therapist might be useful if that's the suggestion you have considered? The roles are different and it seems that you are not responding well to the therapeutic input from the new therapist. I work as a mentor (I know, enough to scare the life out of you) and am very aware of not straying into conventional therapeutic work.

[Omers]

We’re good Camrademoomoo! I’m not sure how to go about finding a professional mentor where I’m at. Historically I have always had two or more women, usually old enough to be my mother, in my life as just normal... but not since I moved to the Midwest.

[comrademoomoo]

Actually, I don't know how you find that either. I work in a university and other mentors are usually similarly placed or in professional workplace settings. There are a couple of alternative workers near me who work in areas such as women's circles, maybe the alternative therapy community might contain a woman who does mentoring? Ha, assuming you have an alternative therapy community near you!

[Omers]

If we have an alternative therapy community I haven’t found it yet... they’d come in handy about now! Lol!

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

First off, if it were any other T, would you have accepted her response? Whether male or female?
From reading your posts, sometimes it feels to me that you're doing this because T1 thinks it might be a good idea. And in that case, I'd opt to either search a new secondary T or continue work with just this one.

I think it's good she responded how she'd naturally respond. You CCd her on it, to me that seems like you'd want her response. And in that case, she has to be authentic. If a T knows you well, they might act differently, they might know that right now you need to just vent. But she doesn't know you well and will act the way her gut tells her to is best for you. In some ways, it might even be good for you to get triggered, because the 'normal' response would be to feel better when receiving empathy. In a more advanced therapeutic relationship, I could see it help a lot to discover why you feel triggered rather than good. But of course it's hard when the relationship is still very new and unstable.

Finally, I think them not ever contradicting each other will be hard. While T1 is her supervisor, they don't just discuss your case in those meetings and she most probably has not read all your files. She is most probably getting to know you on her own terms. So it's only natural that she will sometimes act differently from what T1 would deem best, no two humans are the same.

[Elio]

Originally Posted by Omers

T2 oh, show me the feels! What would the feels look like!! Can we make the feels more feel-y?!!! Can we make the feels brighter and more fluid?!! Oh the feels are really beautiful! (Yes, seriously... and it was a picure about CSA... yes, I’m an artist but... can we show *some* sensitivity to the CONTENT???)

Culture does make a big difference and we are very different across our country and within various subcultures. It might be hard to find a woman therapist to work with where you currently are. If you do decide to seek someone other than t2, might want to look for another transplant.

Take care

[comrademoomoo]

I really dislike the idea of telling a woman to shut up. Hmm, I am stepping away from the thread.

[Omers]

Originally Posted by ChickenNoodleSoup

First off, if it were any other T, would you have accepted her response? Whether male or female?

Good question... I don’t think I would tolerate that answer from T1 so I am thinking no.

From reading your posts, sometimes it feels to me that you're doing this because T1 thinks it might be a good idea. And in that case, I'd opt to either search a new secondary T or continue work with just this one.

I am thinking it might be best to just go back to T1

I think it's good she responded how she'd naturally respond. You CCd her on it, to me that seems like you'd want her response. And in that case, she has to be authentic. If a T knows you well, they might act differently, they might know that right now you need to just vent. But she doesn't know you well and will act the way her gut tells her to is best for you. In some ways, it might even be good for you to get triggered, because the 'normal' response would be to feel better when receiving empathy. In a more advanced therapeutic relationship, I could see it help a lot to discover why you feel triggered rather than good. But of course it's hard when the relationship is still very new and unstable.

I was hoping to warn her it would be a trigger... it backfired.

Finally, I think them not ever contradicting each other will be hard. While T1 is her supervisor, they don't just discuss your case in those meetings and she most probably has not read all your files. She is most probably getting to know you on her own terms. So it's only natural that she will sometimes act differently from what T1 would deem best, no two humans are the same.

T1 is sharing very little with her.