Not including your spouse............

I've been wondering this for some time....... how helpful can therapy really be to a married couple if the biggest issues that occur in therapy are kept from the spouse?

Is NOT including your spouse concerning big issues in therapy very helpful in the long run, to your marriage?

I figure if you are being honest and care about your spouse and want to grow in your relationship with him/her-- then shouldn't most things be shared? If not-- why not? isn't keeping secrets a way of undermining trust?-- which then, may hinder the marriage........

Can transference be a kind of "emotional affair"? I don't know-- I just think if my husband was seeing a woman therapist and he felt sexually attracted to her and expressed that to her and the subject continued-- I think I'd feel like he was having an emotional affair with her-- Just was wondering......would you feel that way if your husband/wife was sexually attracted to their therapist?

this all seems confusing to me...............

mandy

I think individual therapy is about the problems the individual in therapy is having with themselves and the outside world, not necessarily problems they have in the marriage? If spouses have trouble with something (usually "communication") then they could try couples therapy for their marriage.

I don't hide anything from my husband concerning "us". But I don't have to share everything about "me" if I don't want to and if it doesn't have anything to do with the marriage or my relationship with him. My husband doesn't "understand" therapy, didn't feel I needed to go or want to spend the $800 a month out-of-pocket on it but is extremely supportive of me and my knowing what I want and need. I took a full-time job in order to provide the extra money to pay for therapy and my husband then didn't feel like "he" was paying for my therapy. But, if I hadn't taken the job, he would have paid because he loves me but he wouldn't have been a happy camper about it :-)

I don't think feelings are public property. My feelings are "mine" alone and I can share or not share them with whomever I choose. No one can demand or expect you to share your feelings with them, even one's spouse. All feelings are legitimate but not all actions are. I can feel I love someone but if I'm "pledged" to another and do not dissolve that pledge before I pursue that someone else, I don't think that's very nice :-)

But loving someone, of any sex, is not a bad thing. We love our father's and may have sexual fantasies of movie stars, etc. but no counts them as "wrong" because they're not acted on in real time. I think one can love a therapist, either sex and the transference shows us father, mother, lover, the main "characters" of our lives in 3D so we can "see" how we react to others in the world. Pretending the feelings aren't there or not paying attention to them doesn't make them go away. We do think about others and love others beside one person and there is all sorts of stuff wandering around in our unconscious as one can see from one's dreams. Thoughts and feelings are not actions and I think it's really only the actions that "count".

Thanks Perna for your reply. I always value and appreciate your insights.

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I don't hide anything from my husband concerning "us".

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> I think that makes for a healthy marriage. the thing is...... it seems blurry to me if a client starts feeling "connected" in a sexual way with their therapist..... how is that different than a husband that flirts and talks sexual with a woman co-worker? is it not an emotional affair? It's confusing to me..........

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I don't think feelings are public property

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Yeah, I agree they aren't public property..... however, if it's a feeling that could drive a wedge in a marriage-- shouldn't that be discussed? within the marriage?

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
But loving someone, of any sex, is not a bad thing. We love our father's and may have sexual fantasies of movie stars, etc. but no counts them as "wrong" because they're not acted on in real time.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> I think I understand...... perhaps "love" is a difficult concept for me......

So, it can be healthy to love someone else while married, as long as sex or the desire of it is not included in the feeling........ or.... it's OK to think of having sex with your co-worker just not to act on it....... so it's OK to love your therapist and think of having sex just don't act on it........ even when one is married? hmmmmmmm..... maybe this is not a one size fits all kind of thing..... maybe some women would be OK with their husband flirting and getting all excited over another female-- not me.

I dont' think I'd care to accept that it's OK if my husband had fantasies about his therapist, and openly expressed them to his therapist but not to me, fantasies of a sexual nature with the female therapist-- somehow it diminishes my value as his partner-- don't you think?

wonder if I'm making any sense.... I'm trying hard to understand........

mandy

Well,

I don't share everything about my therapy with my spouse but I share a lot when I can. I also don't share every single thought I have with him. Yet, we are a closely attached, committed married couple.

The way I understand erotic transference is to understand that it's a normal outgrowth of attachment. And the attachment with our first "love"--our mothers--was erotic also. We wanted to be "one" with her; the way we were in the womb.

So, we want to be "one" with T. But the way to be "one" in this adult relationship would be sexual? Of course, the sexual relationship yearnings are NEVER acted upon.

But it is very healthy to be able to admit and discuss this and explore it with T, and it's okay not to discuss this with a spouse who doesn't understand and who might be hurt by it.

Anyway, this is my understanding.

Mandyfins, I too would not feel happy if my husband was seeing a female therapist, and I would also not want to see a male therapist because of that reasoning concerning him..I see my husband being patient enought with the innner changes I am going through which at times is hard for him so I would not want to add any more then is necesary onto him...something they say in AA also is men with men and women women, it may not be right but I feel safer sticking with same sex.

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mandyfins said:
I dont' think I'd care to accept that it's OK if my husband had fantasies about his therapist, and openly expressed them to his therapist but not to me, fantasies of a sexual nature with the female therapist-- somehow it diminishes my value as his partner-- don't you think?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
But, in his therapy, he's not going to tell you what's discussed, anymore than you're going to tell him what you talk about in yours? So, you're not going to know what he is fantasizing about and talking to his therapist about and working out.
You are his partner, his therapist is not! A child stating to one's parent, "I wish you were dead!" is just an expression of his anger and inability to express himself any better; he doesn't have the concepts. Mankind (includes women) are built with animal natures; men think about sex X times a minute, you've heard/read about that. It's not "personal" and shouldn't be taken personally. When we're children, little girls fantasize about marrying their father, boys about marrying their mother. "Real" sex and how it's built into us is similar. A man's female therapist, listening to him exclusively, not judging him, taking "care" of him emotionally is much like a mother. It's not a spouse's primary job but we all know that there's a bit of the woman taking care of her husband and the man providing for his wife and children, etc. Those are part of our animal/built-in nature. If your husband were to have had a really good/bad/indifferent mother, he's going to project that onto you but you're not going to be aware of that because you're worrying about you. A therapist is working with the client, with that projection to get it as conscious and understood by both of them as possible. You've almost said that you don't wish for your husband to have sexual feelings for his therapist but they're probably going to happen, and it's good that they happen, and the professional discussion of them will help make his sexual feelings and all his feelings for you less "conflicted" (left over mother problems) so his relationship and communication with you will be better.

My father-in-law took a wrong turn and missed his son, my husband's and my wedding :-) He had my husband's sister-in-law in the car with him and she thought something was wrong but how could she critisize her father-in-law? Especially since she was from out-of-town too and wasn't sure of the directions either. Anyway, they got to the church right when we were coming out :-) My stepmother, had no problems though, getting in his car (they didn't know one another well) and starting to boss him around (welcome to my world father-in-law :-) telling him that she was going to go with him because she didn't want him to get lost again (crime) and she'd make sure he didn't! Well, my father-in-law told me the story and it turns out my stepmother was very much like his mother whom he loathed :-) So, he automatically loathed my stepmother.

Think about the fantasies you've had about your therapist (if you can :-) the ones you've told your therapist and the one's you "can't". They're just thoughts, just fantasies from your unconscious, like dreams. It's helpful to look at them because they give the person to whom they belong information about themselves. But no one else "needs" to hear them and it won't do anyone else good to hear them because they aren't created/produced by the other person. One tells one therapist because it's part of the work the two are doing; it's like having another, impartial person in one's head to help sort what comes up. But a spouse would have the spouse's reactions and feelings about the fantasies and that would only complicate and confuse things, not help straighten them out?

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I don't share everything about my therapy with my spouse but I share a lot when I can. I also don't share every single thought I have with him. Yet, we are a closely attached, committed married couple.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Yeah, I suppose it's not necessary to share EVERYTHING.... but that you do share and even "a lot" seems to me to be a good thing. Your marriage sounds wonderfully compassionate-- (if you don't mind me saying so)

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The way I understand erotic transference is to understand that it's a normal outgrowth of attachment. And the attachment with our first "love"--our mothers--was erotic also. We wanted to be "one" with her; the way we were in the womb.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Gee, I've never had it explained that way, thank you. makes much sense if one never got that "first" mother love, that such transference might occur....

I can see now where it MIGHT be helpful for someone to have this occur(not all though, as not everyone has this issue) but it seems it would only be beneficial if the therapist helps the client to see that this is from the "child's mind" and that the therapist will be in the role of the healthy parent- at this time........

though, I think it's still a bit foggy for me....... I do appreciate your reply...... it's helped me understand a little more.

mandy

Yes Mandy,

As I see it, the therapist has to be solidly comfortable and trained and experienced to deal with this issue in a healing manner so he/she can explain to the client what the feeling state is really all about surrounding this transference.

Mandy,
I don't share too much with my husband basically because he just really doesn't want to know. If he had a female T and was having erotic transference issues, yes, I do think I would be jealous. I'm not saying that's the right way to feel, but I think that is the way I would feel. Good question!

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I too would not feel happy if my husband was seeing a female therapist,

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Ah, you understand.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I would also not want to see a male therapist because of that reasoning concerning him..I see my husband being patient enought with the innner changes I am going through which at times is hard for him so I would not want to add any more then is necesary onto him

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> this is partly my point--- therapy affects our partners even if we keep things secret-- it can still affect them. I think you are being a very understanding partner, in taking care to keep your marriage healthy at the same time working hard at your therapy.
thank you for replying..... sometimes I feel so alien--then, only to post and find I'm not as different as I thought.

mandy

Oh dear......... I am just having a big problem with understanding this...... </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
You've almost said that you don't wish for your husband to have sexual feelings for his therapist but they're probably going to happen, and it's good that they happen, and the professional discussion of them will help make his sexual feelings and all his feelings for you less "conflicted"

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> I know you've tried your best to explain it-- and I appreciate that VERY much. I just don't see how having a sexual fantasy with ones therapist could EVER make a marriage better..... ??? I think that is a leap that I can't fathom.......

I can understand, like what sister said about the desire to have a loving bond(a missing parental type bond)-- but sexual-- I don't know about that....... seems that's more for those BEFORE they are married-- not after........ isn't that what marriage is partly about--the sexual bond? how can having that with someone else make a marriage better??

does it seem I'm going in circles with this??.... think I'm getting dizzy....

thank you always,
mandy

Not having a sexual fantasy "with" the therapist. The therapist is not involved as a person. The idea of the female, any female as an all loving, always available, knows all one's desires, etc. (Think about fantasies of living with your therapist if you can; have you had those? You know how not related to reality those are? But they're there, anyway. Not wanting them or liking them doesn't mean you don't have them and they're good because they put you in touch with basic, everyone-has-them desires to be cared for utterly).

Sexual feelings are not a separate part of us, are not wrong, bad, or a "choice" they just "are". But they're not related to any particular relationship unless there's a sexual relationship there (like in the marriage)! So, talking about feelings, any kind of feelings, including sexual ones, is not about a relationship, it's about feelings and my feelings are different from your feelings and my feelings are mine. Just as you don't want your husband to feel feelings for his therapist (which are your feelings! and I'm not negating them or saying they are wrong or bad, etc.) you husband may feel feelings for his therapist. But they're not for the actual woman and a relationship, they are about his feelings and who he is as a man. His understanding those feelings and who is he as a man, could help him in his marriage.

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If he had a female T and was having erotic transference issues, yes, I do think I would be jealous. I'm not saying that's the right way to feel,

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Thanks for your honest reply, I don't see though why it wouldn't be right for you to feel jealous........ don't we all want our spouse to desire us, solely?

and is it not being hypocritical to think they can do that in therapy but their wife or husband better not?......

I don't see sharing one's sexual emotions with an outsider as conducive to a healthy marriage.

I guess if they have an "open" marriage where they share sex with others -- then I could see the sexual feelings being OK in therapy.

maybe I'm just not getting this............

thanks again,
mandy

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
mandyfins said:
this is partly my point--- therapy affects our partners even if we keep things secret-- it can still affect them.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

My husband knows I go to therapy and it upsets him.

I don't talk about what goes on in therapy. I tried to get him to understand that its about ME not HIM. This didn't work so I just don't talk about it. But it certainly affects him.

Hey mckell13:
Do you think that your husband thinks you talk about him?
Does he feel that you talk to the therapist, but not to him?
He may be feeling "left" out, sort of? My husband knows I have to go, but he doesn't make me tell him anything. I tell him how it went, but not anything crucial. Most of us take advantage of therapy and the safe atmosphere it provides so that we can let out some of our most inner thoughts that we might not tell anyone else. You don't have to explain anything like you do with husbands.
I go for me as well.............but that's all. You can't go to therapy for anyone else but yourself. He needs to understand that. He can't serve all your needs.....no one can do that. I don't care how much you love someone. To put that kind of responsibility on them isn't fair to you or him.
Just speculating on how he might feel? Maybe he's a bit jealous????
At any rate.............good luck.

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Do you think that your husband thinks you talk about him?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Yes, and sometimes I do.
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Does he feel that you talk to the therapist, but not to him?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Unfortunately, he likely does feel this way. The problem is when I do tell him things, he tells me things like: "It's stupid to think like that.", "You don't need that crap.", "No, I don't to that.", "You're being too sensitive or overreacting."...... Or he appears generally disinterested in my ramblings about things that matter to me.
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
He may be feeling "left" out, sort of?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Maybe, but to be "left in" you need to be able to listen and to be able to separate your thoughts and feeling from the other person's.

As for him wanting to serve all my needs... I don't think so. I think he expects me to serve all of his needs.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Maybe he's a bit jealous??

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Maybe...I think it is more that he is afraid that I am building up the confidence and starting to demanding change. He is afraid I am preparing to leave.

Thanks for writing back Mckell. I need to clarify something
about my statement about filling needs? I meant that no one person can fill everyones' needs, and that it's impossible to expect that from someone. Not that you had to fill his needs or him yours!! I was simply saying it's impossible to do it all without some 3rd party opinion. Sometimes husbands get hurt that they can't fullfill all the needs of the wife. They feel like less of a man if they don't make them happy. They don't realize that there's no such thing as SUPERMAN!!!!
On the other hand, he just may think that therapy is just a lot of hogwash and you're just doing it to spite him? Now that's a mans mentality in my book. It took me several months to convince my husband that I needed help. He just tuned it out, as he can't handle disarray very well. He had to see damage before he opened his eyes. That still
left his brain paralyzed to the fact that I wasn't whole.
He would get jealous over not being the top dog anymore.
He use to pout and stammer around, and ask why things can't be pleasant? I had no answer for that.
30 years now and he's just beginning to see what I was talking about with this disability.
Now he doesn't ask me stupid questions...........anymore.
AMEN TO THAT!!!!