Couch 237: Social Rules

Hugs, velcro.

oh my what bad timing for those things to act up. I'm glad D slept through it.

I'm so sorry, Polibeth. Hugs if wanted.

Hugs LT. I sent along-those-lines emails to L in the past and I expected at least a 'thanks' in response too and usually would get that, but then in the next session she would say something like "this isn't about me, it's about you." Which I always hated hearing. I mean I know that, but at the same time I think it was not exactly therapeutic for her to say it when I was just showing a common human caring, besides whenever something was going on for her that she unintentionally let into the session enough for me to notice it, then obviously it was affecting me and therefore the therapy. All of that is to say I don't think it was wrong for you to send the email. Therapy is something that happens between two human beings and I never understood why we must be made to feel like we aren't allowed to care human to human. Aside from how they're being "off" affects the therapy. I know I'm rambling but apparently this is still a bit of a thing for me.

Great post, Artie.

I am not expecting this to be a popular viewpoint, but I am actually with the therapists here. It is about the client. And a danger of talk therapy is it becomes about the therapist. A lot of abuses and pain in therapy occur when the therapist becomes the focus, not the client. Good therapists will keep that in mind.

It's fine to care human to human, no one expects otherwise, but it's like if my students notice if I'm off or sad one day. They don't bring it up and neither do I--it will interfere in both our roles in that relationship. (Whereas if they seem off or sad, it might well be my job to bring it up depending on the circumstances.) I did mention my mother to my students, but that was to explain some changes I had to make to the classes, not to invite their concern. What I'm saying is that of course a client will likely notice if a therapist is off, but if their goals in therapy are to work on themselves, the best thing they can do for both themselves and the therapist is maintain that focus and not shift focus to the therapist. Not bringing it up doesn't make you cold or uncaring; it means that you realize you are the most important thing in your life.

It would be different with a friend or co-worker you noticed was off, and therapists are neither.

I'm not sure how to say this without rambling but I will try to come to the point.

I think that a lot depends on the therapist and the therapist's orientation if they allow "their stuff" to come into the "room/Zoom session" in therapy. I know for me it is easier if my therapist keeps her stuff to herself. Now my long term T that got MS, she eventually had to tell me that she got MS because she was missing sessions and I knew that was not like her after many years together. I guess there was no way around that. Now my current therapist tells me way too much of her own stuff for my liking. For example when she was checking up on me last weekend she made sure to tell me that she had been sleeping all weekend because she got her 2nd Covid booster. It's almost like she *wants* me to respond in some sort of friend way to comfort her or something. I think I did tell her that I hoped she felt better but I was baffled by the information. She was checking on me, but she kind of made it about her. That sort of blurs the lines of therapy for me and makes me uncomfortable. Not that I told her that but I thought it really loudly! I do better with therapists who keep their stuff separate as much as possible. I tend to end up with messy boundaried therapists though. It just leaves me confused and befuddled. Just my take. My 2 cents for what it is worth. Probably not worth much but I'll post it in case it helps anyone. BTW most of my Therapists have been "eclectic" in their orientation. Kit

I have asked my therapist what was going on and/or she has told me when she was a little "off." It's usually something like not sleeping well the night before. (Obviously if she were really unwell or extremely upset she would take the day off.) For me, it is sometimes about making sure I'm not doing something wrong or irritating her or causing her to push away, so it's useful information to have. This is something that comes up with other people in my life too, where they have been preoccupied or frustrated because of something else and I assume I'm the problem. So in that way it has been therapeutic for me to check in and then realize it's not me (and reflect on why I thought it was), although I do see where too much emphasis on the therapist's feelings or life stuff could be a very bad thing.

Well, that was quite the session! Multiple tornado warnings going off on each of our phones, followed by his wife calling in the middle of the session--"I need to answer this, it's my wife"--and then proceeding to talk to her for a few minutes while I sat there feeling really awkward. I made a gesture offering to go in the hall, but he waved me off.

She wanted him to stop the session and move to an interior area (due to warnings), as his office has lots of windows. We were in the middle of a discussion about the therapeutic relationship, with 20 minutes left, and it didn't look too bad outside, so I asked if we could stay in the office a few minutes. He said sure and "I like violent weather." Me: "Me too." Then I said, "I don't want your wife to be upset with you though." Dr. T said: "I don't always do what she tells me to do" and laughed. Which was also a little awkward!

There was some wind and a few rumbles of thunder (including after I said something sort of ominous), but then it mostly blew by.

We talked about other stuff the first 20 minutes of session, but then moved to the email. In a nutshell, he was confused by my email and wondered why I would send something "nonurgent" after our conversation. And it did irritate him some--this was 10 steps to New York instead of 1 (his number for the check-in texts about in-person). I did my best to explain, including the concerns stemming from ex-MC's frequent cancellations and what that turned out to be. And he seemed to get it. I said how I mostly just wanted him to understand and sympathize with why I want to know what's going on, how that would help, even if he's unwilling to tell me, and he said that he both understood and sympathized.

It was just kind of messy, with lots of tears on my part and his seeming maybe a bit harsh and puzzled by me. I said how I was worried that now I was stuck, that even if I was concerned about the relationship or something else in my outside life, I couldn't email because I knew it would bother him. And he said it was still fine to email, that his policies haven't changed. I offered to pay for this last email, and he said he wouldn't charge for something that short. I said I could pay for future ones or agree to not email next week, but he said I didn't have to do that, how it was fine to still email if I want. (I still will do my best not to email for a stretch of time, barring, say, a need to switch an appointment or something like that).

When we were at 50 minutes, I was like, "Can I stay for another couple minutes please?" and he nodded. I was saying how I just wanted everything to be OK in the therapeutic relationship, and he said that it was from his end. I was also saying how I wanted him to like me as a client, to not be an annoyance, and he said, "You don't want to be a burden?" Me: "Yes." Him: "You're not a burden." Me: "OK, thanks." When I left, after the good-byes, I said again, "Everything is OK?" looking him in the eyes. Dr. T (holding eye contact): "Everything is OK." Me: "OK." (These are times when I really miss the handshake part.)

Will respond more later to posts, like this evening (have to finish a bit of work, then pick up D and take her to get her Covid booster, as the storms continue outside--sigh...).

HUGS LT. That sounds very emotionally tiring of a session. I often get emotionally exhausted after sessions--I don't know if you do. I'm sorry it was kind of messy but I am glad that Dr. T gave you the reassurance at the end. I hope you can hang onto that through the weekend and feel okay and secure within the framework of your relationship with Dr. T. and I hope you are safe in the storms and that you get everything done you need to do today. Sending you hugs, Kit

Thanks, Kit. I can definitely get emotionally exhausted by sessions, too, especially when I cry a bunch, like I did today. And it can lead to a sort of physical exhaustion, too.

I'm going to do my best to hang onto that feeling through the weekend and resist the temptation to check in, as that would potentially just make things worse.

Honestly, I just don't see how being concerned about a T being 'off' enough that it comes into the session is making it all about them. I mean, wanting to be sure my T is okay and can be present enough, at their best enough, to help me is making it about me. Isn't it?

I agree with this. And I said something similar to Dr. T, how part of this was my caring about him as a person. And part was also wanting to know that he'll be there for future sessions, that it won't affect my therapy.

ETA: He did say he appreciated that I cared.

Hugs to all of you!

I think it's normal to be concerned about what's going on in a Ts life some. My T is usually very open about whatever is going on, so I don't have to wonder. I really appreciate that. Sometimes it can backfire though, like "I have to cancel our phone call, I gotta see a patient at that time" really backfired. But in a way, it also made me somewhat more secure, I think it's important to state the truth while not being hurtful. For me it wouldn't work if a T didn't want to say something at all, we're both humans and our lives exist after all...
However, I don't think Dr. T is upset about it too much LT, it seems he has a very different interpretation of 10 steps to NY compared to some of us!

....and, further, isn't the T rather the one making it about them in the first place, when they do allow 'their stuff' into the room which causes us to be concerned about them? As in, if you don't want me to ask if you're okay, then don't sit over there acting like you're not. Just thinking out loud. Er, through my keyboard. ymmv.

Halfway through the workday!!! Well, more like 5/8th of the way through the workday. This three day weekend can't come fast enough!!

After 2 weeks of telehealth, I now have to go a week w/o sessions with L. Thankfully, T is on backup, and I'm doing well with the move thanks to my sister. But I hate it when L goes away. I know the sadness is there because of the good things in our relationship, but it still sucks.

Hugs, Scarlet.

LT, I think the most important factors in your expressing concern and anxiety about your therapist's well-being are being lost. I don't think the useful consideration is about the nature of human caring or where the focus of the therapy is flowing or whether he is annoyed or whether clients can comment on a therapist's life, etc. These sound like distractions to me and in that sense they do take the work away from being about you.

For me, the therapeutic work here would be about the interpersonal interactions in the relationship e.g. what are my projections here? Is my concern for his well-being actually an expression of concern for my own well-being? If I think he is struggling, am I actually the one who is struggling?

Similarly, the intrapersonal dynamic is potentially being highlighted for you. Are there aspects of your self who are worried that you are going to let yourself down? Is your inner critic questioning your mother self? These are guesses of course, but the conflict and concern which is showing itself in the relationship could be a reflection of your inner conflict and concern.

It doesn't sound like he treats your anxieties and concerns as information which both of you can use to help you understand your internal world. He sounds stuck in an anxiety-reassurance loop with you which isn't working for you - mostly because he can't even reassure you sufficiently. I think identifying patterns or being aware of replays (such as the ex-MC stuff or parental relationships) goes some way to explaining the familiarity of your anxieties, but it doesn't sound like it is deep enough to really help you get inside those feelings and find a new course for yourself.

This is a very long winded way for me to say that I get the impression that he repeatedly misses important information and opportunities.

Hugs, Scarlet. Do you have something scheduled with T?