I told T women scare me

DISCLAIMER: i'm presenting a view, no judgements, no argument toward anyone here - k? Please, no one yell at me or get mean.. i cannot process it... but i wanted to share my ideas

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Is that a comparable thing to a well endowed women wearing a revealing t-shirt?

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No.. no it isnt the same. There isn't a history of societal pressure on men to be so fricking worried about a peak of flesh showing. we're made to be afraid of our own bodies... boob? OMG and its not just clothing... its everywhere.. there is awhole period in art in which women were painted without any nipples or hair "there." Even now... the differences between what is acceptable for men's bodies vs women's is astounding. . Go look at "old art" all the nude women are generally reclining and looking away somehow... so that the male viewers could consume the female's nudity, eyeball her without feeling as though she were looking. (that isn't my own opinion, that is one of those art-facts) We've been told what to do/wear etc based largely on men's desires/reactions/etc. Is the opposite true? Nope.

im not responding to you kim, as much as the girls/guys you describe... the first issue being, whose issue is it if Wendy can't keep her mind off of sex? If Bob wears a baggy shirt then it solves her issues? How baggy does it need to be? How do we set that standard? Kind of scary really... where that leads.. It really becomes a rapid decent into "she was asking for it." That isnt an accusation.. just think about it... how many women were judged as "deserving" what they got because they wore a short skirt... one big spectrum.

Try reading about George Sands, or exploring the history of the female nude in art... it is enlightening on the issue of how our own ideas about what is acceptable got shaped... without us being aware of it.

how do any of the women here feel about being "scary" to others? just wondering...

Miss... T is not including you in that group that he is scared of? you are a woman.. makes me feel really insecure that T might possibly be "afraid" of me... or hate the idea of working with me.. It's not a happy thought.

kim, thinking more about your posts on this and i'm agreeing a bit more.

I think it matters what the person's dress, appearance, mannerisms are saying because those things preceed the intellectual part of the personality. So if the first thing the person is 'saying' by way of dress, mannerisms, etc. is "Look at me as a gender" (sex object) then it can detract from the exchange of ideas that follow.

Over-charicaturized, a person who comes off as flirty, sexual first then attempts to move to an intellectual excange of ideas is likely to not be taken as seriously as someone who doesn't first present themselves as a kind of exaggeration of their gender.

I don't know it that makes sense.

I have to think of my T here. She is so intelligent, articulate, professional. Yet she dresses how she chooses, and in a very feminine way. She isn't young or slim. But she doesn't downplay any of her anatomy. Of course I live in the sub-tropics and the dress is casual, cool for comfort, and includes low cut dresses and tops and bare-legged, barefooted sandals. It's much different from where I came from and took some time to get used to and to accept as normal here.

idk. Does the person who wants to accentuate her body in the way she dresses making a statement--positive or negative--about how she feels about her sexuality or about sexuality in general, I wonder.

I envy and admire a woman who has it all... smart, funny, and comfortable with her sexuality. Men, on the other hand, may be so intimdated they may have to reduce it to just sexuality and something they can court, win, control.

I love this discussion!

Hey. I agree that there are indeed issues to do with gender imbalances etc etc etc. Significant issues. I don't mean to deny those at all.

But I do think that the issue of how you present yourself / appropriate clothing is an issue that can be seperable from that. This latter one can be an issue for guys as well as for girls.

I don't think anyone has suggested that baggy shapeless clothing is in order.

What are those guys t-shirts called? Muscle t's. Why are they called that - do you suppose? I'm not saying that this guy should at all have been ashamed of having well built arms. I am saying that wearing something that makes it likely that people are going to stare at his arms probably isn't the wisest professional move, however. We don't have 'rate my professor.com' but I can bet that if we did there would be a number of inappropriate remarks... I'm not saying that he is responsible for the reactions of 18 year old girls. But I guess I am saying that his wearing that was likely to have them respond in this way. If he didn't want them to respond in that way then there are plenty of well cut clothes that are fashionable and stylish that would have been much more appropriate for a professional setting... If he did like their responding in that way... Well... I guess I do have a bit of an issue with that... And... I guess I feel similarly about cleavage. But then it might well be (in fact I'm sure it is the case that) different professions have different norms of dress. I don't really see muscle t's or cleavage doing much for the 'I'm a competent professional' image, however...

I said it..suggested it. i'm suggesting it is part of the spectrum... overt sexuality-oriented on one end, and shapeless-genderless on the other. It wasnt any sort of accusation.

we live in the real world, no doubt... and how you dress affects how others perceive you/me... but should it? Not IMO.

the whole thing is a spectrum... and yeah, i have my own personal lines and they are different from others. My suggestions are simply to consider what the ultra-conservative stance vs. overtly sexual stance is at the other end of the spectrum is before one decides where the line is for them.

muscle T's... yep, made to accentuate, but we werent allowed to expose an ankle not so long ago. In Canada (and the UK) it was into the 1930's before women were legally considered persons under the law. i personally can't put them in the same category because of that separation in the larger sense. Men just are not as fearful of exposure, as a group i mean. The perception of them as objects isnt nearly so imposed. i am certain i would be more concerned (and i have to be) about whether i'd be considered "sexy" at work then any man ever will.

should people observe some sort of professional dress which moves away from sexuality? probably.. but who gets to define that?

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But I guess I am saying that his wearing that was likely to have them respond in this way. If he didn't want them to respond in that way then there are plenty of well cut clothes that are fashionable and stylish

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a person is responsible for the thoughts/emotions of another? if i wear a clown suit i'm probably trying to make someone think funny thoughts... but how far removed from the clown suit can i go without that conclusion? Is the showing of the body explicitly sexual? In the same direct connection as the clown example? im not upset, i'm simply posing the questions..

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I don't really see muscle t's or cleavage doing much for the 'I'm a competent professional' image, however...

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oh, i totally agree... with muscle T's... and i'd agree with belly showing shirts.. or thongs over the waist band... but not with showing a little cleavage or an ankle for women... or short sleeves/tighter shirt on a man. (and wearing a T shirt isn't presenting oneself as a professional generally, regardless of tightness... but that is my own line, depending on the profession)

Samuel clements said "Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society. "

btw... thank you guys for participating without arguing or fighting

oh... this reminds me... when i lived in cali, many therapists seemed to dress extremely casually... wearing yup, nice shirts which are somewhere in the T-shirt/golf shirt variety. MLP's T wears a tie and jacket.. mine wears a dress shirt and nice, but not necessarily dress, pants... professional?

i think if i had erotic transference toward him i would find him sexy.. i can say he is definitely handsome and he's jjust adorable... but either way, thats all me, right?

this is a good talk... not really what Miss began with... but cool

George Sands (a woman btw) said "...I don't care if i am attractive or not because I'm not trying to attract anyone right now..."

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MzJelloFluff said:
how do any of the women here feel about being "scary" to others? just wondering...

Miss... T is not including you in that group that he is scared of? you are a woman.. makes me feel really insecure that T might possibly be "afraid" of me... or hate the idea of working with me.. It's not a happy thought.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I too have those thoughts, MzJelloF. I don't really choose those who provide professional services to me based on gender. I have had good experiences with both male and female landscapers, accountants, doctors, lawyers, car mechanics, whatever. When I did have a bad experience, I chalked it up to their competence or personality rather than their gender. Maybe because I'm a woman trying to earn a living myself, I would not discriminate against women when shopping for services. I give both women and men a chance, and usually it works out just fine. I understand I may have some internal gender biases/preferences that may date back to past incidents, but I just push past those and let people in my present have the opportunity to show me their best. I would feel truly weird if my T said to me that women scare him, and I'm not sure I would be able to work with him. (MissCharlotte, I know your T didn't make that statement, so this isn't directed at your situation.) I also understand that a person's therapist is a very special role, in which the T needs to receive our ultimate trust and in which scenarios from our past are played out on the therapeutic tableau, so I can see gender preferences could be worth acknowledging and following here, for ultimate therapeutic value. The car mechanic, lawyer, doctor, or physical therapist--I'm not so sure.

I think it is a really interesting conversation too :-)

I'm reminded of this TV ad (remember the ad, can't remember what it was advertising).

Screenshot of a guy wearing speedos, beach in the background 'ok' is written on the bottom of the picture.

Guy starts walking (towards the camera), away from the beach 'ok' is written on the bottom of the picture.

Camera shot shifts so you can't see beach or sand - you see road and shops 'not ok' is written on the bottom of the picture.

It is quite striking that with the beach in views wearing speedos in public is perfectly fine...
But with the beach out of view wearing underwear in public most certainly is not.

Context certainly comes into play. I guess that is the thing... If the weather is hot and the majority of people wear summer dresses then summer dresses might well be appropriate. It is context relative. Showing an ankle when others aren't isn't appropriate to the context.

Part of what is hard is that females are less represented in professional settings, I guess. It is coming up that time again when students are talking about going to the Eastern Division Philosophy conference in order to hit the job market. Consensus: Males should wear a navy or black suit and a conservative tie. Females should wear... I thought that a nice sweater and some dress pants would be ok for females - but apparently not. Suits. It is weird because typically in social occasions when guys are wearing suits girls are wearing dresses. But no... I guess a skirt suit would be appropriate... Or... A suit. Because you don't want to stand out. Ideally... People should forget what you wore (aim for inconspicuous dress).

But that is a very weird convention... Social norms... Bizarre, huh.

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MissCharlotte said:
Kiya,

Don't you just love the way she says it? I feel like I have come a teeny bit of the way this week, tho still have huge issues surrounding body image. What I feel is like I may be able to begin to discuss some of this with T, and begin to work through some of the pain surrounding it.

My other Bellaruth favorite: "and so you are."

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Heheh... yeah.... and one that has crept into my vocab.... "More and more". I have been to one of her workshops. I actually wish she could spend an hour with my t and I.

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kim_johnson said:
Why don't people listen to what she says more? Why don't those visiting proffs appreciate that she is as smart as her comments and criticisms show that she is? Why didn't she get a job in the field - she is friendly and smart and entertaining in interviews? I think that the way she presents herself (IMHO as a sexual object first and foremost) detracts considerably from the many wonderful qualities that she in fact possesses and those many wonderful qualities that would result in her being a real leader in her field if only people listened a little more and stared a little less...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Somehow this woman has failed to learn the norms in her field and is shooting herself in the foot by dressing inappropriately for her profession. I feel bad for her. She has a blind spot for some reason. I think it is her advisor/mentor's role to take her aside and advise her on clothing and presentation. If not her advisor, then other faculty in her department. The discussion may be awkward, but this student needs mentoring so that she can get out there and get employed!

yeah sunrise.. i have not enjoyed working with a *group* of just women... but a group of just guys aint ideal either... i prefer a mix. For some reason everyone behaves. i don't fit in with either group though, so that might be just me.

i can't wait to find out what the bank co-workers are going to think of purple and blue hair. Ha. Do i care? Nope. i don't have any plans to make friends there... my experiences of not exactly blending in tell me that i'm unlikely to meet like minded people.. you never know, but meh, whatever

will i cover my tattoos? yes, for the office i will.

ohh.. a suit? i like suits.. but of course, i'll wear a zebra print scarf with mine

Actually when I started this thread it had nothing to do with clothing but rather the fact that when I am around women in general I have to be more wary and careful of my moves. I have a really, really hard time defending myself against the "mean girl" thing. It's so not my cup of tea. It's the female version of bullying.

Now, as to the whole dressing thing. I don't show cleavage at work and agree it's better to be a bit more conservative if you want to be taken seriously. Just notice how much Katie Couric's oufits have changed since she started doing the evening news. Her outfits are MUCH more conservative now than when she started.

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Miss... T is not including you in that group that he is scared of? you are a woman.. makes me feel really insecure that T might possibly be "afraid" of me... or hate the idea of working with me.. It's not a happy thought.

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Jello, I am sure he meant to include me! After all--look at the ruptures we have had. I screamed at him once so loud that I scared me. LOL -- It was said with a smile and I know he has the utmost respect for me and enjoys our work together. I'm confident with that.

Peaceout

Sorry we got so off topic. I too hate the mean girl thing. I quit a job because of the level of gossip.