Stupid question.

Thanks kim, do you want some icecream?

Yes please :-)

With respect to the 'Dr' title, though... You would only be able to call yourself 'Dr' if:

1) The courses that you are getting the certificates for are part of your enrollment in a PhD or PsyD program

AND

2) After you had finished them (plus your thesis) the degree would be conferred in a graduation ceremony. Whether you attend the ceremony or not you can't use the title legitimately until after that ceremony.

Outside the USA (e.g., in the UK, in Australasia) clinical psychology can be part of either a Masters Program or a PhD or PsyD program in a university setting. If a person does courses as part of a Masters degree then when the Masters degree is conferred they are still not allowed to use the title 'Dr'.

There are also other ways to get license to practice - but these other ways don't allow one to use the 'clinical psychologist' title or the 'Dr' title...

Congratulations Pegasus. Awesome.

BB

My husband has his Ph.D in organic chemistry & is a research scientist. In the scientific community he is addressed as "Doctor", but he prefers not to be in regular society so as not to be confused with an MD & perhaps be called on to perform a lifesaving procedure in an emergency!

Our daughter is a lawyer & I believe her degree is a J.D.

I'm a housewife, basically, so I'm the old-fashioned Mrs.--Suzy

Mmm... Well I'm already in the Division of Clinical Psychology, these doctoral training courses are run by the Division of Clinical Psychology. The courses are aimed at clinical psychologists. I'm working towards becoming a fully fledged 'Chartered Clinical Psychologist.' Am I repeating myself?

> Clinical Psychologist

> How do I become one?

> You would need to complete a Society accredited undergraduate degree or conversion course that gives eligibility for the Graduate Basis for Registration (GBR). You would then go on to a three-year, full time, professional training course leading to a Doctorate in Clinical Psychology. The training comprises academic and practical experience. You can find lists of Society accredited undergraduate, conversion and postgraduate courses under the Accredited Psychology Courses section of the website.

> The NHS funds the Doctorate programme. Applicants that are successful in gaining a place on the programme are employed by the NHS as trainee Clinical Psychologists. If you are a non-EU applicant it is very difficult to gain a place on a Clinical training course as the NHS are unlikely to employ someone who needs a work permit to work in the UK.

http://www.bps.org.uk/careers/areas/clinical.cfm

If the courses are part of the three year full time professional training course leading to the Doctorate in Clinical Psychology then they would be doctoral level courses, yes.

I asked my T last week and his reply was...'You have a doctoral level certificate from the British Psychological Society.'

So I now have two, I must be on the right track.

That's great news, pegasus! Sounds like an important achievement. I'm not sure what a certificate is, but it sounds good. So do you already have your PhD and these certificates are for additional training (post-doctoral training)? Or are these certificates something you must achieve on your way to getting a PhD? If so, how many do you need to get a PhD? (it sounds a lot different than the system in the U.S. where we don't have certificates.)

Anyway, hurray!

These are courses that qualified clinical psychologists would do to keep up with their continuous professional development. But I'm not sure what the %#@&#! I'm doing because my head is spinning round right now!

Thanks sunrise.

Pegasus! Congrates to YOU!

Thanks mouse.

I was trying to figure it out myself.

(Not at all because it makes a difference with respect to the certificates being significant achievements that you should jolly well be proud of)

But with respect to your initial question about the 'Dr' title and whether the courses were doctoral level.

The info I posted was from the relevant website.

1) Do you have an undergraduate degree in psychology or education or social work? (a degree that is accredited by the society)

If not... Then my guess is you are doing the conversion course that (the website says)

> gives eligibility for the Graduate Basis for Registration (GBR).

So... That is getting the equivalent of an undergraduate degree in psychology. That way one has met the entry requirements (the graduate basis for registration) so that one can begin the doctoral program:

> You would then go on to a three-year, full time, professional training course leading to a Doctorate in Clinical Psychology.

After completing the doctoral program one would indeed have a PhD (with 'Dr' title) in Clinical Psychology (and a license to practice in the UK).

If you are paying for these courses... Then I really would look into how long it is going to take and how much it is going to cost for you to be accredited... Just because it is worth knowing what one is in for... If it is more that it is an interesting thing to be doing and you are happy just doing what you are doing then by all means keep on doing it though.

It really doesn't matter whether the course is doctoral level or not with respect to it being a significant achievement, though. Hardest course I ever bloody did was a second year module in neuropsychology...

kim, I do appreciate you helping me out with this. I am classed as a Graduate Member which is why I was accepted into the division of clinical Psychology, the letter I got from the BPS sometime ago said I can start my training towards becoming a Chartered Clinical Psychologist.

I do realize now that I cannot call myself a Doctor yet but will be able to call myself a Chartered Clinical Psychologist at the end of it. Saying all that, I don't think I would want to be called Doctor. Pegs will do.

Okay... I would look into it, though, because it is important to know what you are getting yourself in for (false and / or misleading advertising is rife and tertiary institutions are no exception).

My university back home used to offer a 'post-graduate certificate in psychology'. It was open (in the first instance) to people who had already earned a bachelors degree in a field other than psychology so they could get the equivalent of an undergraduate major in psychology without having to do a whole other degree. It was a very popular way for people to attempt to gain entry into the clinical program.

The three year degree required about 2 first year, 4 second year, and three third year courses for a major One could do that in either one or one and a half years full time. One was then awarded a 'post-graduate diploma in psychology' and one was able to undertake honours work in psychology (where honours students were able to apply to the the clinical program). In the UK as in Australasia the PhD system doesn't have a coursework component (typically) so there isn't really such a thing as 'doctoral level coursework'.

I guess I'm just concerned... If you think this process will take a few few years part time or something like that and you find out that it will take you 9 years or something...

(((((((((((((((((((Pegasus))))))))))))))))))))))))) I don't know what to call it except awesome. Congratulations again.

BB

Thanks (((((((((( bipolar bear ))))))))))))

ok Kim, I have to say you have got me very worried. I have been working at a school for the last three years and have handed in my notice because I believed that I am now a Clinical Psychologist. My boss and my collegues believed me and they know what my qualifications are. But I'm now doubting this and thinking I have really got myself in trouble!

I have been having therapy on this issue for a long time, my T knows what I have done and what I haven't done. I joined the BPS many years ago and have risen up through the ranks but I haven't been to any ceremonies. I did know what the normal course of things were but couldn't afford to go to university so have been doing all the work with my T. As far as I know I haven't written any thesis or dissertations but I have done many essays.

I have done approx 10 doctoral level training courses, these courses were aimed at clinical psychologists continuing their professional development, run by the DCP and all by famous clinical psychologists. So you can see why I am so confused. There is a part of me that knows absolutely nothing of what I am doing with my life, and there is a part of me that knows everything. According to my T I am already a clinical psychologist and he has said stop!!! - Otherwise I would end up running the BPS at this rate! I certainly don't want to do that! I don't even want to run my own department. I just want to be a CBT therapist.

Anyway, I'm about to finish a perfectly good job apparently for no reason. Funnily enough even my GP (MD) believed me when I told her and there was much celebration. I don't know what's going on now! Although I DO have a letter from the BPS saying I'm on route. Ha! One of my certificates is 'Interventions for delusions - What every Clinical Psychologist should know!' Looks like I'm gonna have to use it on myself!

Is this what you are enrolled in?

http://www.bps.org.uk/downloadfile.c...C56EA2&ext=pdf

Well... To the best of my knowledge the only way you can get the title 'clinical psychologist' in the UK is to do either a Masters degree or a PhD or a PsyD degree. The entry requirements for those are an undergraduate degree with a major in psychology. Sometimes there are bridging courses so that people who majored in something different for their undergraduate degree are able to gain entry to a Masters, PhD, or PsyD program.

If you do the Masters, PhD, or PsyD programs then you come out with a Masters in Clinical Psychology, or a Doctor of Philosophy in Clinical Psychology, or Psychology Doctor (Clinical Psychology) degree. That is how you get the title... That is what the title 'clinical psychologist' means in the UK - that you have completed one of those degrees.

> I joined the BPS many years ago

As a 'full' or 'partial' member? (Full Membership seems to be restricted to people who have one of the above Clinical Psychology degree).

> I did know what the normal course of things were but couldn't afford to go to university so have been doing all the work with my T. As far as I know I haven't written any thesis or dissertations but I have done many essays.

How do you mean you 'do all the work with my T'?

> I have done approx 10 doctoral level training courses, these courses were aimed at clinical psychologists continuing their professional development

Okay. There is a difference between a 'professional development' course and a course that is a required part of an academic qualification. I'd check to make sure that the courses that you are doing are contributing towards a qualification in clinical psychology (if you don't already have a qualification in clinical psychology - which I'd expect that you haven't if you haven't been to university).

> According to my T I am already a clinical psychologist...

Hmm... Then why are you doing all the courses if you are a clinical psychologist already? Do you have a piece of paper that says you have a DEGREE in clinical psychology?

> Anyway, I'm about to finish a perfectly good job apparently for no reason.

Do you have another job to go to? There are people who get work as councellors who aren't clinical psychologists - having a clinical psychology degree isn't a requisite to get a job as a therapist / councellor and / or to work with patients.

> I DO have a letter from the BPS saying I'm on route.

On route to what? And... What other requirements are there for you still to complete?

Thanks kim, I'm not a complete idiot, I think I know a bit more about the BPS than you do. I didn't realize that asking a stupid question was going to put me on trial. I made an application to change my grade and the powers-that-be checked out my credentials. Also I am a Member of other sections of the BPS, worked in mental health and learning disabilities all my working life, the last 6 years have been a long hard slog. Once you become chartered you then have to do 40 hours of CPD every year so the learning never stops. I'm not chartered yet but I am heading in that direction.

Anyway I will be talking with T about all this, he is a Chartered Clinical Psychologist and I don't think he would lie to me.

You can be a clinical psychologist without holding the title of Dr.
There is a psychotherapy institute near me that offers doctoral level classes, but you get a certificate instead of a degree.

To hold the title of Dr. you have to do the dissertation process. PhDs (and presumably PsyDs who also do a dissertation) are very possessive of the title. I'm a PhD candidate in the social sciences (not psych) doing dissertation research now. There are people who are ABD (all but dissertation) and other people who have terminal professional degrees (a J.D. for example, or C.P.A.) Typically those disciplines are not research oriented and don't require a dissertation. But they do require another test to gain the certification needed to actually practice.The MD (a regular medical doctor) in the US is a professional degree. In the UK it is an academic degree similar to a PhD. So in the US, you can hold the title of doctor with only the MD (first professional degree.) Its a rare exception to the rule I guess. The other exception is the PsyD which is clinical oriented but doesn't always require a dissertation. Most respected programs do require one though I think.

I think it pretty much holds true that in any nation, the dissertation process is the important threshold. If your program is geared to working with patients, you probably won't get a real "doctorate's" because you will probably finish without writing a dissertation.

If you ever go through the dissertation and peer review process, you'll know why people who achieve those titles become professionally possessive of them. UGH.

> I'm not a complete idiot, I think I know a bit more about the BPS than you do. I didn't realize that asking a stupid question was going to put me on trial...

I apologize that you feel like I'm putting you on trial and putting you down. That wasn't my intention at all. I was attempting to help you find out the answer to your initial questions, was all. I respectfully withdraw from the conversation.

(for the record i'd like to say i thought that kim johnsons posts were very informational and i'm hoping no one is overly distressed, thank you)