Thinking of not going to therapy

No, I did not.

That is the problem. When I am at that level of non-functioning, my therapist (and any therapist I have ever known) cannot understand what is happening and has no ability to proceed in an orderly fashion to find out what is happening. I know no one who conceives what it is like to be a person who is under the control of someone else and has no way out, as I was when a child, and as I feel many times now too. They seem to have no way to deal with it -- and that too is a reminder of childhood. No one would intervene -- they were all too scared. I am still scared by the feeling that no one now knows -- or wants to know. They are all afraid of what they will discover. But they feel the need to do something -- and what is it that they will do? Shock treatments? Lobotomy? Mind-numbing drugs? Is there no one who knows any better?

Oh...... For you to state that to the therapist, I still think that really, really deep down you did know but because you were in this authority situation you were swayed easily?

When that psychiatrist said that I wonder if he was looking at you as an adult and coming to that conclusion? As children we are not responsible because we were only children but as adults it shifts. You weren't responsible for the adult that you became at 18 but from then on out we are responsible for how we solve our problems. I don't think that it needs to be a blame game though. But really taking responsibility is empowering. I'm sure it wasn't because you weren't trying! The answers are hard to find. I know mine didn't drop into my lap. Timing and coincidence play a role. It also sounds like in your case that bad luck played into it.

Yeah, your participation is essential. I have always said that I did my own work with insight from the therapist. The ultimate in empowerment. Empowerment is the only way to truly heal just like my signature says....

Do you still believe that? I bet if you were one of this guys friends you would see a totally different side to him and be shaking you head in disbelief that this guy gets to do that job. Luckily I've had the opportunity to befriend about a dozen phd's in the field and I can now I just let these comments slide off like water off a duck's back...also rhymes with qu....! You should try dating one sometime like I did,..now there's some enterainment...lol I find it very hard to take the profession very seriously at this point...but we won't get into that here. My point is this guy you don't know anything real about him, I bet, but he knew you at your most vulnerable, and used it to try to make you feel bad about yourself. What kind of person is he?

What else have you looked into? anything look somewhat promising? What kind of stuff resonates with you?

You mean -- on your 18th birthday it suddenly shifts?

(That it was my own fault.)

Deep down -- I wonder. The thought still makes me frightened.

(After all, I was over 18.)

Call me stupid or whatever. I say the truth, even if it doesn't make me look good.

pachyderm;822931](That it was my own fault.)

Deep down -- I wonder. The thought still makes me frightened.

(After all, I was over 18.)

Call me stupid or whatever. I say the truth, even if it doesn't make me look good.[/QUOTE]

I can't call you stupid, I'd look like a total idiot. You're quite a bit more intelligent than I am.

So you are still frightened deep down inside if their is any truth to what he said. Even though he had no place saying that to you, you sound like you feel some guilt associated with the incident of landing in the hospital. Am I hearing you right? At the risk of me feeling stupid and patronizing you three questions from the Sedona Method come to mind:

Could you let it go?

Would you let it go?

When?

If you aren't ready to let it go it's okay. You may need more time to think about it. If you like I can send you a link to the page I got this from. Or you can ignore this if you like. I have no association with them, never bought the product. I flipped through the book once and read the ad online. But I use this from time to time to release emotions that create obstacles.

Yes. I did some things, if only in my own mind, which made me feel worse than worthless. As alluded to in another post, I felt willing to do anything to remove the horrible, horrible anxiety and the rotten feelings I had inside of me. As in the book 1984, I was willing to sacrifice anyone else to save myself. The anxiety and mental horrors were so bad that I did not think I could stand them without going stark, raving mad and ending up disappeared into non-existence. And I had no one to help me. It is a horrible thing to discover that you are willing to sacrifice your own deeply held principles in order to live. Although I did not want to do it, I did it. The literature is full of absolute condemnations of people who do the things I did in my own mind. No mercy can be shown to such horrible people. At least, that is the lesson I believed in. Maybe still believe in. It is a lesson that was taught to me by my mother too -- that of being somehow irretrievably condemned.

I should not be writing about these things.

There's this little switch that gets flipped ......

Your sharing is so poingnant to me.
".........without going stark, raving mad and ending up disappeared into non-existence. And I had no one to help me............"

.... this is the experience of the 'self in exile', that cosmic alienation.. at its extremes, off the edge, and out of connnection with humanity, no human can withstand that, ..
that is what I too have faced .. there are those in my life whom it has been fatal for, .. you're not imagining these issues. this is the 'self in exile disorder'.

I also have issues about morality and i make no apology even tho the term is out of fashion. I was co-opted by my mother in fam of o. and I did things which hurt others, many, many things, in my ignorance I didnt know. I found looking back that I had been involved in and acting out the very principles that were most abhorent.

as far as I have experienced, these issues havent been fully understood and acknowledged by the professionals, at least that I have found. the way I have personally behaved lives with me and lives in me. I was polluted and distorted inwardly by what was going on in my foundational experiences.

These are real and important issues.

In my persuit of recovery I have found its necassary to know and understand the differences between the disorders.... how the dynamics work etc... thats what was missing for me in my previous attempts at recovery.........

"......irretrievably condemned........."

...yes,..that was a cosmic feeling I had from an early age... I remember the moment when I first experienced it...

I'll avoid platitudes this time... I'm here, these issues are the ones at the heart of my recovery, or not recovery.....

river

And I had no one to help me.
It is a horrible thing to discover that you are willing to sacrifice your own deeply held principles in order to live. Although I did not want to do it, I did it. You were all alone and had to do something you did not want to do in order to live? That sounds very intense and like you have deep character because of it. You also sound like a very good person, to me, who cares so much about principles to have gone through so much turmoil that you would do something you did not really want to do.

Sometimes we get a chance to reevaluate our principles and priorities during a very intense moment in our lives without time for much forethought. It is at those times that our will to survive is awakened and comes to the surface. This is an honor and a responsibility you must accept. If you don't that would be the dishonor. It may not be just or fair or perfect, but it is something that over time you gain a greater understanding of yourself, and in forgiveness, you practice. It is honing a skill to defend oneself without escalation or drama and with grace and dignity.

The literature is full of absolute condemnations of people who do the things I did in my own mind. No mercy can be shown to such horrible people. At least, that is the lesson I believed in. Maybe still believe in. It is a lesson that was taught to me by my mother too -- that of being somehow irretrievably condemned. Did your mother ever teach you the lesson of forgiveness? Sometimes parents take it for granted that kids know how to forgive.

How well do you know how to forgive yourself? Learning to forgive yourself is not a frivolous quality, but an act of being in the present moment. It is one of the greatest things a human can do. Living in the past does not change the future for good. Only by accepting the present moment with appreciation as a "present" from the universe, can you effect the future in a positive way.

I've had to save my own life, several times. I can relate, I had to fight my own mother once. Sometimes the guilt was horrendous. But I'm okay with my choices now, not happy, just acceptance of what I cannot change. Fighting for survival and wondering what is my greatest principal in a time of chaos was very frightening. I didn't know who I was for a long time. Now I have reshaped my future, have conviction and peace.
Nothing bad happened to me for forgiving myself. What is the worst thing that could happen if you forgave yourself? What would you be giving up?

I should not be writing about these things.You haven't said anything specific.

Not that I remember. She said things such as "I will show you no mercy." In recent times I think I have learned to forgive myself to some extent. That is still insecure.



I feel in danger from writing. I think I will be attacked.

I want to describe in some detail my understanding of the therapy that I referred to in an earlier post, a therapy that was described by the British mathematician E. C. Zeeman for anorexia nervosa. Zeeman according to Wikipedia is still alive at 83 and has received many honors for his mathematical and educational work. The therapist was always referred to as J. Hevesi, and I have never found any other references to him or to his therapy.

According to the description given by Zeeman, each therapy session started by inducing something of a semi-hypnotic "trance" state in the patient. I am not sure how essential this trance state is. It seemed to be something that the patient more-or-less "naturally" fell into. In this condition the patient was instructed to forget about eating (for anorexics), forget about social approval, to just become a calm observer of her own internal state, and to report whatever was going on within her mind. The therapist became a joint explorer with the patient into her thoughts and feelings. All of them. The patient was to try to simply observe and report. Sessions lasted perhaps for several hours, while the patient remembered more and more. Sessions were repeated periodically over the course of a number of weeks. The patients' internal conditions underwent quite rapid transitions at times, in which they suddenly remembered new things and adopted new attitudes towards themselves. This is why the mathematical theory of rapid changes was useful.

This kind of therapy requires the therapist to be able to tolerate his or her own feelings and thoughts about whatever material might come up. The therapy was almost completely non-directive, with only gentle pushes by the therapist to reassure the patient and to get more material to come up.

This is in contrast to what seems to me to be the thrust of most "therapy" today. I think most "therapies" of emotional disorders today have a tendency to want to suppress "bad" thoughts and replace them with "good" ones. I see this tendency in psychiatry with the use of drugs or ECT (in the past with bloodletting or lobotomies) or the imposition of "moral" imperatives, or in many psychotherapies. I see this tendency with some here on Psych Central. I personally do not know of any therapist who adopts the different approach that I have tried to describe.

My own therapist wants to "help" his patients; he wants to "do" something to them to make them "better". He injects his own thoughts into a discussion that takes place. He does this in group therapy also. It seems that he has to do so. Maybe it is so, that frightening thoughts that are starting to come up, thoughts of mine that I am only barely aware of because I fear them, are perceived by my therapist and he does not want to see them. This does not make him a "bad" person. And what alternatives do I have? Are there really people who do not do this in some fashion? Maybe there are, but I do not know them, and do not know how to find them.

You may think that an approach that does not seem to want to "make" the patient better is cold-hearted and non-supportive and impersonal. I think it is the exact opposite. It is the most caring possible. It is an attempt to deal with reality and not suppress it. I liken the attitude that a therapist should take as being similar to the attitude of a doctor who deals with "physical" disorders such as leprosy in the old days, or any other malady which may fill the doctor with fear: the doctor has to set aside his fears in the service of helping the patient. That is the most caring, and it may be the hardest.

A "therapy" which wants to make the patient better (right away) will not actually work, because it is in the service, not of the patient, but of the therapist who wants to avoid his or her own feelings of fear and disgust. It sends the message to the patient that some feelings and thoughts are too terrible to manage. But if that is so, then how do you cure the patient, if you cannot discuss any part of the material constituting the disorder which comes up?

(The therapy of Hevesi that Zeeman described seems to have been forgotten. This is the fate of many discoveries in science and medicine which are found to be too frightening to bear at the time. It happened in the days of Freud and later. You have only to read the history of some of their early therapies to discover that they suppressed many of the details of what actually happened in therapy. Read the history of the case of "Anna O", for instance. Look it up on Wikipedia at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_O>. There it says that "Anna O was, in fact, Bertha Pappenheim... Anna's/Bertha's case also shed light for the first time on the phenomenon called transference, where the patient's feelings toward a significant figure in his/her life are redirected onto the therapist. By transference, Anna imagined to be pregnant with the doctor's baby. She experienced nausea and all the pregnancy symptoms. After this incident, Breuer stopped treating her." In fact, Breuer panicked at the obviously sexual nature of Bertha's growing attachment to him, according to at least some historians. You can look up books on Anna/Bertha on the Web and on Amazon.)

Is it me? I'm showing that you last posted this morning Pachy and I cannot find it. I'm sorry I cannot respond.

I read Sky's post and I agree. Perhaps you could call and explain everything is not okay and you are not coming in. By acting out, not calling and not showing up you are don't know what message you are giving and how it is interpreted.

Do you want to take a chance and give the wrong message. Last time you said he came to your house? Sounds like you want someone to rescue you. Understandably so, but what if this doesn't happen the way you expected it to go?

You sound as though you know all about what you don't want from therapy, the question remains...So what do you want?

Please forgive me for being off topic as I said before I cannot see your last post. Yay! it pushed through your last two posts, I will read them now. Looks like you have some ideas what you do want!

Okay, now I get what you are saying.

I will look up those therapies you mentioned in a moment. I think it's a problem of the T being open to what the patient needs, or being able to refer the patient to the type of T when necessary and not getting frustrated with the patient for not responding to any particular modality.

If my T's here in ny were less hyperfocused you would love them. I do see a problem though, and I don't know why this is, could be a regional thing. In the beginning of my therapy I got solutions and no respect for the depth of what was underneath. I found I was unable to cope with the solutions presented to me as they didn't take into account all my feelings.

Now that I have gone through in writing all my feelings about my past ad nauseum, read every book on the shelves, I know who I am, what I want and where I'm going, I just want some feedback and solutions, especially to the mixed messages I've gotten throughout my years in therapy. All I'm finding they want to float and let things come up and keep digging all without hearing the problems of today. Strange switch. I feel as if they are taking my money if they don't have any answers. I can sit around my house and go deep. I am just looking for a professional opinion...problem is I'm not finding anyone who is "professional" surprisingly. Gotta run, till later...

Pachyderm, this description is ringing a bell with me. It reminds me of a paper I read from the psychotherapy literature some time ago (not about Hevesi). I remember being so intrigued by a brief description of the paper, that I wanted to read the whole thing and so paid something like $40 to get it online! Never done that before. Anyway, I will try to dig it out and see what I can report. May take me a couple of days. I liked what you wrote about the "rapid transitions." I had such a moment a while back, due to the interaction of a key dream and what happened in therapy. My T referred to it as a "transformative moment." He was a little in awe as he doesn't get to share in those every day in his office. And it wasn't just a one day thing. That almost instantaneous experience has continued to strongly affect my life and who I am.

There are other approaches. That sounds like an approach someone from the cognitive perspective might take. I don't feel my therapist tries to get me to suppress my thoughts or replace them with others. That approach totally would not work for me either. I think a lot of my problems are because I have suppressed so much, so a solution would not be to suppress more! Luckily, my therapist is astute enough to realize this. I think if I had to characterize my T's approach in a nutshell, it would be to accompany me on a journey to reach my full potential.

Pachy, it just sounds like your T's approach is totally not a match for what you need. I am feeling from reading your posts about him and what you need, that continuing to work with him is like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. Maybe that's an inaccurate interpretation, and if so, I'm sorry. From what I read here, it just sounds like he can never be what you need him to be. That's going to cause a lot of pain and discomfort and frustration for you. I'm sorry. Do you know why you continue to see him? Despite what you've written, are you getting some things of value from the relationship?

I continue to go to my therapist (except for the last time) mostly because I don't know how to get a better one. I do continue to learn about myself while doing therapy, but I feel stuck and not getting into deeper things, which I think I could do somehow. I see myself avoiding them, but cannot seem to stop doing that without more help.

Here are a couple of references to the anorexia therapy that I have been describing. I think it has applicability beyond anorexia. The articles may be a bit too mathematical in places unless you have some familiarity with the concepts from math or physics. The author does do a pretty good job of explaining the concepts if you do have some knowledge.

A Catastrophe Theory of Anorexia Nervosa
by E. C. Zeeman
from the book Hunger Models, D. A. Booth, editor

Catastrophe Theory
by E. C. Zeeman
Scientific American, April 1976

[QUOTE=pachyderm;824724]I continue to go to my therapist (except for the last time) mostly because I don't know how to get a better one. I do continue to learn about myself while doing therapy, but I feel stuck and not getting into deeper things, which I think I could do somehow. I see myself avoiding them, but cannot seem to stop doing that without more help....

I think it has applicability beyond anorexia.

I definitely agree with you it has applicability beyond anorexia and could be very useful to you. Sounds like Zeeman and Hevesi really understand how to assist a person going deeper and have an appreciation for it also as it applies to the the healing process without fear.

Have you thought of contacting a university psyche department and inquiring about this research and possibly finding a referral? What about inquiring into similar techniques, in case you come up empty handed with a good professional you will have alternatives?

On the other end of the spectrum, and in the meantime, perhaps you can think of a few alternatives to keep you connected to your progress. Have you thought of stream of consciousness writing? Writing to yourself whatever comes to mind? Let me know if this helps at all or not so I can understand your situation a little bit better.

[QUOTE=jacqueline1110;824543]Is it me? I'm showing that you last posted this morning Pachy and I cannot find it. I'm sorry I cannot respond.

I read Sky's post and I agree. Perhaps you could call and explain everything is not okay and you are not coming in. By acting out, not calling and not showing up you are don't know what message you are giving and how it is interpreted.

Please forgive me for being off topic as I said before I cannot see your last post. [COLOR="SandyBrown"]Yay! it pushed through your last two posts, I will read them now. Looks like you have some ideas what you do want!
Now Sky's post is missing also. Why does it only show in Hybrid mode? but not linear?

I strongly doubt that any psych department has ever heard of Hevesi or his therapy. I could find no instance where he himself published. I did contact Zeeman at one time and got more material from him. I suspect Hevesi's precise techniques were pretty unique to him and finding "similar" therapies would be virtually impossible. Some people did do more with the mathematical Catastrophe Theory for other forms of mental illness, but those papers were much more involved with mathematical details than with actual therapy. But the basic idea of Hevesi's therapy is, I think, similar to that of any good psychotherapy. I doubt if I would find many (any?) professionals who would agree with me. At least I have never been able to get anyone to see what impressed me about his therapy. And the predictions and details of the mathematics very closely tracked with my own personal, internal experience. The math shows why the mental instabilities are there. It has been very frustrating for me to see something that lets me see into my own experience, and from a perspective (math) that is not what anyone expects or believes, and have it entirely ignored.

When I imagine myself trying to follow the Hevesi techniques, I see myself as blocking my own thoughts. I can "see" it happening. I think I can see what I need to do, which is just to try to let it happen, but my mind does not want to go there. It is very hard. My mind sabotages me at every step. I feel I need the reassurance of an external person who gives me the feeling that he knows what he is doing and is not afraid of it -- that it is pretty ordinary stuff, in fact. But I find it extraordinarily hard to do it on my own. I intend to continue to try to do so, nevertheless, since I do not see anyone else helping me.

BTW, you can quote previous messages by just clicking on the Reply button, and then editing it to make sure that the parts you want to quote are surrounded by left square bracket "quote" right square bracket and left square bracket "/quote" right square bracket. If that makes sense.

Pachy,

I just read all the postings in this thread. I feel your frustration and pain. I relate to some of it or I would not be coming to PC.

I wish I had some words of hope or comfort to give you but all I can say is that I read what you said and tried to listen with my heart not just my mind.

Some people who should have done have cared for you and treated you like the treasure you are, have wounded you and left you with memories and feelings you can't heal for yourself. It is not all your fault, you are not unforgiveable, you matter. I care.

Leslie and her Pixies

I guess one cannot post just a single smilie anymore...

But I sure don't feel like a treasure! Maybe something that has been buried for a long time

So Pachy are you going to look for a new therapist? I think you can get better with something as simple as self-understanding. The therapist you have now is not focusing on you so no wonder you can't move forward. There are other good therapists out there though.

Hi Pachy,

Sorry to hear about this - sounds awful! Have you tried talking these feelings through with T? what was his reaction? Can you tell us more about needing to shock him and how he fails to respond? Is he aware of how you feel yet still failing to respond?

I hope things get clearer soon!

BTC.