[greenidentity]

Hello! I am new to the forums, and trying to go around and post various thoughts on things here and there.

I have a question about therapy and self help. I'm 30 years old, a heavy thinker and very analytical of myself and the world around me. I feel as if I'm very tuned into myself in ways....but am fatally blocked in others. I have had years and years of therapy, questioning myself, looking into the root of my problems e.t.c. it is almost quite excessive, as my focus is primarily always on myself, and I can become quite selfish.

Anyways, do you ever find that many therapists you go to just don't help? Does it feel like the things they're telling you are things you already know, on a very basic level?

I have a very hard time finding anyone "innovative" enough to treat me. I can match wits with the best of them, so cliche psychological methods bore me and leave me feeling empty.

Does anyone else have this problem?

Thank you

[Simcha]

Originally Posted by greenidentity

Hello! I am new to the forums, and trying to go around and post various thoughts on things here and there.

I have a question about therapy and self help. I'm 30 years old, a heavy thinker and very analytical of myself and the world around me. I feel as if I'm very tuned into myself in ways....but am fatally blocked in others. I have had years and years of therapy, questioning myself, looking into the root of my problems e.t.c. it is almost quite excessive, as my focus is primarily always on myself, and I can become quite selfish.

Anyways, do you ever find that many therapists you go to just don't help? Does it feel like the things they're telling you are things you already know, on a very basic level?

I have a very hard time finding anyone "innovative" enough to treat me. I can match wits with the best of them, so cliche psychological methods bore me and leave me feeling empty.

Does anyone else have this problem?

Thank you

Hi, welcome.
Frustrating to not have your T helpful I'd say. I have some thoughts, but might be inaccurate.

Maybe your T doesn't know that you understand clinical terms and clinical theories etc., so he explains things on a very basic level because you haven't made him aware of your knowledge?

Are you ever direct in that you tell your T what you have told us? They would probably modify their approach if they knew that they weren't tracking on the same level as you were.

Try to relax and stop focusing inward and try to focus on what the T is saying, engaging them in direct and open conversation about the topic at hand. Therapy is interactive. If my T wasn't getting it or was being far to simplistic in his dialog/responses, I would say it to him (in a non-threatening, kind way). He would appreciate my honesty as my T wants to understand me better so that he can better help me. I have a good T.

Just make sure the temporary selfishness you mention you have at times doesn't turn into malignant narcissism. That will really block you from overcoming issues.

I don't mean to regurgitate stuff you already know, but you see I don't know what you do know and what you don't know. Sometimes even the things I KNOW I need to have validated and reinforced for action on it to be effective anyway. Sometimes I don't know the answers either, so input to clear the cloudiness is effective. Clear as mud, right?

You see, therapy isn't about matching wits, but rather about finding and fixing problems as best they can be fixed. Sometimes the therapist is a bad match. But... if several therapists over the years have failed to help you, it's more likely that in some way you might be resistant or not sticking with the T long enough to get results. Maybe not engaging them in dialog as well. All sorts of things could have happened, but make sure your not just discounting what the therapist has to say before you move on.

It's hard for me to answer because of general nature of your concerns. I just hope it was helpful and not considered rude of me.

[coconut64]

Hi Green, welcome to PC.

Just an idea, but have you given psychoanalysis a thought? You describe yourself as

a heavy thinker and very analytical of myself and the world around me

maybe that's just what you need. Or have tried psychoanalytic psychotherapy?

[sunrise]

hi greenidentity, what sorts of therapeutic techniques leave you bored and feeling empty?

In my therapy, I think of myself as the leader, so if I lead us into boring places, it's my fault, not my therapist's. I lead where I need to go in order to heal, and it is never boring.

As for techniques, I did find that my first therapist's ability to help was limited as she had a fairly proscribed skill set. My next (current) therapist had a bigger toolbox, and that has made a lot of difference.

Does it feel like the things they're telling you are things you already know

Rather than what my therapist tells me being most important, it is more that he listens to me, understands the significance of what I tell him, senses what I feel, and provide a holding environment in which I feel profoundly accepted.

I too am highly analytical, but I don't let that be a stumbling block in therapy. I don't really like to analyze everything into the ground when I'm there in therapy, because that might draw me away from the really emotional and healing moments my T and I share. I would not miss those for the world. I don't think I've ever felt that my T and I needed to match wits, but I have really appreciated his ability to match a certain degree of emotional nuance. If I had an insensitive therapist, it would be hard to stay with him for long.

I guess we all need different things. My T does use some really cool techniques, but not every time. Yes, they're entertaining, but that's really not what I'm there for. What are you there for?

[Mouse_]

Originally Posted by greenidentity

Hello! I am new to the forums, and trying to go around and post various thoughts on things here and there.

I have a question about therapy and self help. I'm 30 years old, a heavy thinker and very analytical of myself and the world around me. I feel as if I'm very tuned into myself in ways....but am fatally blocked in others. I have had years and years of therapy, questioning myself, looking into the root of my problems e.t.c. it is almost quite excessive, as my focus is primarily always on myself, and I can become quite selfish.

Anyways, do you ever find that many therapists you go to just don't help? Does it feel like the things they're telling you are things you already know, on a very basic level?

I have a very hard time finding anyone "innovative" enough to treat me. I can match wits with the best of them, so cliche psychological methods bore me and leave me feeling empty.

Does anyone else have this problem?

Thank you

No, my therapy is working for me, I can feel the change within me. If you do not feel the change_within_yourself, then therapy isnt working. You sound like you have a narcissitic defense going on there.

[kittykins9]

Greenidentity,
New here too, but this is a problem I have run into. I am a fairly cerebral person, and one of the things that has been hardest for me to realize is that many of the problems I have aren't solved by thinking my way out of them. It would so easy if they were! I have chosen therapists that can get me because my vocab is fairly extensive, but I do want to comment on your idea of things being basic.
Knowing it and getting it are not exactly the same. Most of us who've been in therapy for a while actually know how we ought to act, and how we ought to treat ourselves. That's great, but it may not helpful if we don't get it on a really deep internal level. I've had therapists repeat things to me that actually annoy me because I already know it. However, opening myself up in the therapy process has allowed me to let those things in to the point where I don't just know but "get it." It's not as much cerebral as psyche and emotion based.

I don't know if you understand what I'm saying here. I do tend to be impatient with people whose eyes start to glaze over when they don't understand me, or who seem to say things that I already have knowledge of. Yet, in therapy, I've experienced those Gestalts, where I finally realize how to feel what i know, instead of just knowing it.

Hope this helps, and do search for someone who can meet you intellectually, but look for their heart too-- since sometimes the most basic information needs to be experienced rather than simply known.

Best,
Kittykins9

[pachyderm]

I have to say I identify with greenidentity. Maybe not so much "intellectualizing" but I feel that I understand (parts of) psychology a lot better than therapists I have met. I want to be able to let myself just trust one, but I do not. It is a nightmare.

[greenidentity]

Originally Posted by Simcha

Hi, welcome.
Frustrating to not have your T helpful I'd say. I have some thoughts, but might be inaccurate.

Maybe your T doesn't know that you understand clinical terms and clinical theories etc., so he explains things on a very basic level because you haven't made him aware of your knowledge?

Are you ever direct in that you tell your T what you have told us? They would probably modify their approach if they knew that they weren't tracking on the same level as you were.

Try to relax and stop focusing inward and try to focus on what the T is saying, engaging them in direct and open conversation about the topic at hand. Therapy is interactive. If my T wasn't getting it or was being far to simplistic in his dialog/responses, I would say it to him (in a non-threatening, kind way). He would appreciate my honesty as my T wants to understand me better so that he can better help me. I have a good T.

Just make sure the temporary selfishness you mention you have at times doesn't turn into malignant narcissism. That will really block you from overcoming issues.

I don't mean to regurgitate stuff you already know, but you see I don't know what you do know and what you don't know. Sometimes even the things I KNOW I need to have validated and reinforced for action on it to be effective anyway. Sometimes I don't know the answers either, so input to clear the cloudiness is effective. Clear as mud, right?

You see, therapy isn't about matching wits, but rather about finding and fixing problems as best they can be fixed. Sometimes the therapist is a bad match. But... if several therapists over the years have failed to help you, it's more likely that in some way you might be resistant or not sticking with the T long enough to get results. Maybe not engaging them in dialog as well. All sorts of things could have happened, but make sure your not just discounting what the therapist has to say before you move on.

It's hard for me to answer because of general nature of your concerns. I just hope it was helpful and not considered rude of me.

Lots of good points here. I really appreciate this.

Instead of answering everything you asked, I will just give some examples of my therapy now. I have only been seeing my therapist for a few months, and maybe around 5 times so far.

First off, she seems preoccupied with ADHD, which I do have. But she gives that as an explanation for most everything I tell her (self esteem issues, social anxieties, loneliness e.t.c.) I don't feel like she's being versatile enough in exploring all the possible underlying issues (past sexual abuse, which I posted about in the abuse forums, possible mild to moderate anxiety disorder e.t.c.) So I feel like she is focusing on the wrong thing.

Secondly, she will often start talking about her young daughter, who also has ADHD, and tell stories of what she does, how it affects her e.t.c. I am all about sharing, but I don't feel this is entirely appropriate.

One thing I have learned through the years is that you have to give your therapist a chance. I have had a history of being resistant to what a therapist is telling me. I don't think it's due to narcicissm, my gosh! I think it's due more to the fact that I get a majortiy of my therapeutic needs met with TALK therapy. I am usually very good at finding my own answers, my own truths. However, it's only after some in depth expression that I can usually arrive to this. This is why I think that maybe instead of one on one, I need to seek group therapy? Hearing others talk about thier issues also helps me immensely.

[greenidentity]

Originally Posted by coconut64

Hi Green, welcome to PC.

Just an idea, but have you given psychoanalysis a thought? You describe yourself as

maybe that's just what you need. Or have tried psychoanalytic psychotherapy?

I am not quite sure of the difference, or what these therapies have to offer?

[greenidentity]

Originally Posted by kittykins9

Greenidentity,
New here too, but this is a problem I have run into. I am a fairly cerebral person, and one of the things that has been hardest for me to realize is that many of the problems I have aren't solved by thinking my way out of them. It would so easy if they were! I have chosen therapists that can get me because my vocab is fairly extensive, but I do want to comment on your idea of things being basic.
Knowing it and getting it are not exactly the same. Most of us who've been in therapy for a while actually know how we ought to act, and how we ought to treat ourselves. That's great, but it may not helpful if we don't get it on a really deep internal level. I've had therapists repeat things to me that actually annoy me because I already know it. However, opening myself up in the therapy process has allowed me to let those things in to the point where I don't just know but "get it." It's not as much cerebral as psyche and emotion based.

I don't know if you understand what I'm saying here. I do tend to be impatient with people whose eyes start to glaze over when they don't understand me, or who seem to say things that I already have knowledge of. Yet, in therapy, I've experienced those Gestalts, where I finally realize how to feel what i know, instead of just knowing it.

Hope this helps, and do search for someone who can meet you intellectually, but look for their heart too-- since sometimes the most basic information needs to be experienced rather than simply known.

Best,
Kittykins9

This really made me think. Again, a lot of great points. I think this jut may be my dilemma. While I do "know" a lot of things, that doesnt help me actually do anything about it! I knmow it seems strange, but I guess this is partially why we go to therapy, so we can learn how to put our knowledge to use to better ourselves. Thank you for this great insight!

[Simcha]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

I have to say I identify with greenidentity. Maybe not so much "intellectualizing" but I feel that I understand (parts of) psychology a lot better than therapists I have met. I want to be able to let myself just trust one, but I do not. It is a nightmare.

As long as we all remember that over-intellectualizing is a defense mechanism that inhibits therapy. We have to find a happy medium between understanding and over-intellectualizing.

Therapy isn't about understanding the academic study of psychology, but rather about understanding and coming to peace with yourself. Trust is not an academic pursuit either, so I don't expect any trust to come from that place.

I'm not sure where your lack of trust in every therapist you have ever seen comes from pachyderm...where do you think it comes from?

[SpottedOwl]

Welcome greenidentity!

match wits with the best of them, so cliche psychological methods bore me and leave me feeling empty.

You know you're smart, why do you need to match wits with your therapist?

I don't mean to diminish what you say -- choosing a therapist that can understand you is important. You very well might need someone who is of high intelligence, but the purpose is not to have an intellectual contest.

What really strikes me is not the talk of intelligence, but how you feel -- 'empty'.

I tend to think of my mind as having two parts -- the intellectual and the emotional. I very well may have an intellectual understanding of, say, 'attachment issues', but to really let myself feel the pain of not have a strong attachment as a child is another thing entirely.

I don't think you can have too much knowledge, but I do think that we need to balance that intellectual side with our emotional side. I find my emotions are strongly tied into my body, so paying more attention to how my body feels is a way to get more in touch with the emotions. For me, balance is the key.

[greenidentity]

Originally Posted by SpottedOwl

Welcome greenidentity!


You know you're smart, why do you need to match wits with your therapist?

I don't mean to diminish what you say -- choosing a therapist that can understand you is important. You very well might need someone who is of high intelligence, but the purpose is not to have an intellectual contest.

What really strikes me is not the talk of intelligence, but how you feel -- 'empty'.

I tend to think of my mind as having two parts -- the intellectual and the emotional. I very well may have an intellectual understanding of, say, 'attachment issues', but to really let myself feel the pain of not have a strong attachment as a child is another thing entirely.

I don't think you can have too much knowledge, but I do think that we need to balance that intellectual side with our emotional side. I find my emotions are strongly tied into my body, so paying more attention to how my body feels is a way to get more in touch with the emotions. For me, balance is the key.

Some of my replies have been delayed due to being new, so please forgive me if a whole slew of them come up at once.

I guess I didn't really mean I wanted to match wits with my therapist...I know that therapy sessions are about digging and discovering, and having a proffesional who can help you do this in a safe and effective manner. I guess I was just trying to convey that I do have a big intellectual side.

You are right though, there ARE 2 parts of my brain. I have to learn how to reconcile many areas of myself together. I have to learn this fusion, and how to live in a happy grey area. I have a knowledge of grey areas, I know that the world and people are very multi faceted...but I have trouble finding that with myself,though I do try.

I guess I just need a little help.

[greenidentity]

Just thought I'd give an update for those who care.

Went back to my therapist today, which was MUCH needed after a very revealing week. I've seen her several times over a scattered period. I know now I need to stay on track and see her every week or at least every other week, insetad of monthly and cancelling and re-scheduling constantly.

Here's the lowdown: T thinks all/most of my problems are ADHD related. I don't agree. I've had ADHD so long, and feel I know it inside and out (my own ADHD, that is.) I started to feel as if there was something else accompanying it...I don't think ADHD can be related to lack of self identity, feeling empty, instability of emotions, anger at percieved slights or abandonment..things of that nature. I started to feel as if I may be Borderline (which I posted about in the Personality Place.) I brought all this up to her today. She is able to give DX, so she said "Let's go thru a few things." So we went thru some symptoms. I only met 3 or 4 of ADHD, and around 5 or 6 of BPD.

She STILL refuses to label me BPD. she says I'm ADHD with anxiety and some obsessive stuff....I am DEF. NOT OCD, but I am a big control person. I have to control my life or I go banana's...but it isnt OCD. Control is a big thing with borderlines, no?

Anyways, I feel like I am borderline. She says I'm not hostile enough. I don't feel she knows me well enough. I can be quite hostile and aggressive. Regardless, she said she sees it fit to start DBT next week...YAAAY! This is something I've wanted to do for awhile (is that weird??) and I am excited and scared about what I will find out about myself. I can't wait to see if I can once again become attached to my feelings.

Why is it so hard to get a dx???

Either way, I am not giving up.

[MissCharlotte]

Welcome greenidentity!

I have not had these problems, I am only on my second therapeutic relationship and both of them have been very satisfying. This current relationship is psychoanalytic, and intense, and I am very attached to my therapist. I have benefitted tremendously and, like mouse, feel change from within.

Your comment about matching wits doesn't necessarily point to a desire to change or grow. Maybe you need to change your goals for therapy.

I would also suggest a psychoanalyst whose training might be allow for a more challenging relationship.

[greenidentity]

Originally Posted by MissCharlotte

Welcome greenidentity!

I have not had these problems, I am only on my second therapeutic relationship and both of them have been very satisfying. This current relationship is psychoanalytic, and intense, and I am very attached to my therapist. I have benefitted tremendously and, like mouse, feel change from within.

Your comment about matching wits doesn't necessarily point to a desire to change or grow. Maybe you need to change your goals for therapy.

I would also suggest a psychoanalyst whose training might be allow for a more challenging relationship.

....

How does that comment indicate no desire to change or grow? Did you see my explanation for that comment? I never said I wanted to go match wits with my therapist: rather my point was I have a big intellectual side, and need to relate to people on that general level. That's all.

I also commented about being excited for DBT starting nect week. I have been wanting to do it for awhile. I have had CBT in the past, and know it is similar. CBT benefitted me greatly, and I think DBT will even more. does that indicate an unwillingness to grow??

I have a huge desire to grow and change and learn, and have a clear view of my therapy goals. The only "mystery" in all this is a definite DX. I'm not totally resistant to my therapist. I like her, and think most of the inconsistency comes from not having seen her enough, and also from my inability to create therapy goals previousy. I started seeing her because I knew I was "feeling bad"-much worse and different from "normal." I couldnt articulate well, so I think we were both left confused for awhile. Now however-I am able to articulate things better. I just dont necessarily agree with her dx, but that doesnt mean she is wrong or I am wrong...it's just how I feel for now.

I hate feeling misunderstood.

[MissCharlotte]

Hello green,

So sorry you felt misunderstand. I meant no harm.

My point was not that you had no desire but that matching wits didn't feel like it pointed to that desire. Again, I offer my apologies. It simply seemed that the idea of matching wits as the content of the session didn't feel so healing to me. It's probably because I am a wus and dislike that kind of activity! So, I tend to shy away from those challenges.

I was responding to your original post, not to the ensuing ones that had more details about CBT, DBT, etc.

Best to you.

[chaotic13]

Originally Posted by greenidentity

Does it feel like the things they're telling you are things you already know, on a very basic level?

I've felt like this on several occasions and have sometimes left a session thinking..."No...SH*&, I can't believe I just sat there and listen to her say something so OBVIOUS." The funny thing is, often after a session like this I wake up the next morning and realize..."damn, I really needed to hear that."

[SpottedOwl]

Why is it so hard to get a dx???

Why is it so important to get a dx?

Is it that you want a different dx so that you no longer carry the label of ADHD? Do you want the dx so you can try DBT? Whatever the reason, it might be interesting to figure out why the dx is so important to you.

Many congratulations on the commitment to yourself to see your therapist regularly, as well as starting the DBT group!

(As an aside, I wanted to mention MissCharlotte's post. She brings up a really good point. If you are interested in a more 'intellectual' approach to therapy you might want to investigate psychoanalytic or existential therapy.)

Thanks for the update, and keep us posted!

[Susaan van Zyl]

Hi greenid,
I believe I have a similar "problem" to yours. I need to absolutely trust and believe in my T, I need to know that he has all the answers, before I can trust and accept him to guide me towards healing/betterment. Once that is in place, I can confidently share with him, and accept his remarks as worthwhile. Sometimes, when I can feel that he is not 100% into the session, it gets frustrating, but I accept that he is also only human. I need reassurance from a source that I trust, and it definitely has to do with my intellectual perception of the T. Good luck, imo, you have to invest something to get a return, but if, after a reasonable period, you do not feel a connection with your t, I would search for a soul-ma t e

[pegasus]

((((((( greenidentity )))))))) Welcome!

Therapy is not about how intellectual you are, you don't have to be thick to do it. People from all walks of life have therapy. We are dealing with feelings, not how clever you are.

But I do think there needs to be a good match between therapist/therapy and client. CBT and DBT are very good but can make some feel like you are doing homework set by a teacher!

If you are interested have a look round the internet into different therapies. Some here have already mentioned an analytical therapy may suit you better. I have found transactional analysis to be a fantastic tool to understanding self and others.

Take care.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by greenidentity

I am usually very good at finding my own answers, my own truths. However, it's only after some in depth expression that I can usually arrive to this.

Originally Posted by greenidentity

While I do "know" a lot of things, that doesnt help me actually do anything about it! I knmow it seems strange, but I guess this is partially why we go to therapy, so we can learn how to put our knowledge to use to better ourselves.

Originally Posted by kittykins9

Knowing it and getting it are not exactly the same.

Yet, in therapy, I've experienced those Gestalts, where I finally realize how to feel what i know, instead of just knowing it.

since sometimes the most basic information needs to be experienced rather than simply known.

I think that all the thoughts in these posts are good leads to take in therapy. Understanding yourself is so important and problem solving your way out of your corner is priceless..........

[greenidentity]

Originally Posted by SpottedOwl

Why is it so important to get a dx?

Is it that you want a different dx so that you no longer carry the label of ADHD? Do you want the dx so you can try DBT? Whatever the reason, it might be interesting to figure out why the dx is so important to you.

Many congratulations on the commitment to yourself to see your therapist regularly, as well as starting the DBT group!

(As an aside, I wanted to mention MissCharlotte's post. She brings up a really good point. If you are interested in a more 'intellectual' approach to therapy you might want to investigate psychoanalytic or existential therapy.)

Thanks for the update, and keep us posted!

I fully realize/accept my ADHD side. I just don't see the connection with the most disruptive symptoms in my life.

a dx is very important to me. I posted this around before, but this is my reasoning for wanting one:

A) I've been going around for years trying to "be normal" and telling myself I am just a teribly flawed person. My family and friends have long tried to suggest it's something deeper. Because I've rejected that for so long (besides attributing my hyperactivity and chatter to ADHD, which I've never rejected) I think I hurt myself a great deal.

B) I liken it to someone who has had great physical pain for a number of years. When they finally get a dx, they feel relieved in dealing with it properly, and more justified in thier pain.

I know some people dont want a dx. but I can see how it's important to some. Just helps steer me in a consistent direction of healing, rather than repeatedly blaming myself, and repressing all negative emotions.

About psychoanalysis e.t.c...I wouldnt know where to start. I think for now, am going to try the DBT and go from there. I know a bit about it, and I like the fact that it's like "homework." I like the fact it's interactive, and kind of like journalling. I'm eager to see how it helps (or doesn't!)

(((((((((((((((((((((((((greenidentity)))))))))))))))))))))))

I understand wanting a diagnosis. My middle son, who is 8, has autism/aspergers. We knew it for a long time before we finally pursued a diagnosis, but we finally realized that a diagnosis would help HIM understand why he is a little different from other people, and why some things that come naturally to other people are hard for him. We wanted him to understand that there is nothing wrong with him -he's not stupid, or flawed in some way - his brain works a little differently, and there are lot of other people just like him who have brains that work in that same unusual way. I think having the diagnosis has been really good for him. Actually, he feels sorry for people who DON'T have autism! lolol

I hope you can find the answers you seek.

[Simcha]

(((((((((greenidentity))))))))))

A fellow ADHD traveler--most excellent!!! We are much more fun (and some say trouble) in pairs. Out of curiosity, are you taking any medication for the ADHD symptoms? If so, what is it? I'm a little tired at 4am, so bare with me if I'm not very... coherent (don't worry I'm going to bed after this).

The likelihood of someone with ADHD developing a secondary disorder is quite high, especially the longer it goes untreated/undertreated/undiagnosed. Dysthymic Disorder, Major Depressive Disorder, and especially the anxiety disorders are all quite common in a person with ADHD. When you think about it, it isn't difficult to see why this is so. It affects most areas of our life.

Our ADHD brains are not quite the same as non-affected people, and as a result we often think and experience the world a little differently. There is nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't mean we are dysfunctional. However, FEELING dysfunctional and actually being dysfunctional are two different things. When ADHD is controlled (and not controlling us), ADHD can be quite a gift. We think and view the world in different ways than most who don't have ADHD.

That said, what you describe to me seems very much to be stemming from ADHD. If ADHD is your baseline, you could very easily have something else.
I would say that if you REALLY think that you have Borderline Personality Disorder, seek a second opinion. Honestly (and I'm not a professional here), my opinion is that you probably don't. It is POSSIBLE to have that as well, but this is an entirely different kind of disorder from ADHD, and one that is very misunderstood and very difficult to treat.

It is possible that due to the immense amount of stigma surrounding personality disorders (and especially Borderline), that your T didn't want to write that in your records. Even "professionals" in psychiatry and psychology can be very judgmental and biased, especially when it comes to the very difficult to treat personality disorders (of which Borderline is unfairly and unfortunately, the most stigmatized of all). Do not proactively seek this (or any for that matter) diagnosis. If in doubt, have your T explain in detail why she diagnoses you with XYZ, and if still in doubt, seek a second opinion.

Remember also that many symptoms will match on any given person if we just look at the DSM-IV TR. If we just went off of symptom lists, heck, we would could all diagnose each other with something! The reality is that humans and the science of psychology are both way more complex than what is written in a book.

I apologize if my 4am rambling here isn't coherent.