[imapatient]

Really bad experience in partial hospitalization today in process group.

I’ve been really trying to open up about my emotions and very vulnerability sides. I way over-intellectualize; absolutely over-analyze according to everyone, Ph and elsewhere. It’s natural—dad was a rocket scientist for part of his career—he “over-analyzed.” He also was super-cold, hostile to me, and mean—using his intellect in the process. My mom was very mentally ill. Chaotic, and driven by uncontrolled emotions. I didn’t learn how to handle my emotions adequately or properly.

My default is the intellectual approach. It’s natural to me. I think I have such difficulty dealing with my emotions (great trouble) because I didn’t experience healthy emotional relationships nor were they modeled for me.

I was talking in group today about stress and distress that I’m having (DBT talk) about some professional issues (I don’t work, this was some public policy volunteer stuff I’m involved in). I was trying to open up about an ugly side of mine: The desire when hurt to belittle people, to humiliate them, to demonstrate their incompetence and being “not smart enough.” I’ve been wrestling with my feelings of wanting to strike back publicly at people who shunned me in the reform movement I’m part of.

So I finally opened up about having a mean streak that I know about but often can’t control; belittling at the least.

The therapist said she feels I’ve done that to her with comments I’ve made about the dbt material we’re using—my comments/criticism are about the Marsha Linehan material, not what the T’s are doing.

She said she thinks I really need to get over myself.

She referred to some of the losses I’m trying to deal with—not finishing my PhD due to depression, leaving that particular school (Ivy League), termination with a past T.

She repeated “get over yourself” several times. She’s very pushy, obnoxious, dismissive, and a little “high on herself” too.

It felt very belittling on her part. Mean even. An abuse of power of sorts to look down at and judge me as if superior. It also seems like she personalized my comments about dbt, and I suspect in other ways the way I’ve acted. It also sounds very defensive and insecure of her.

I’m really, really ticked off—furious. I want to tell her off just not go back. Or I don’t want to address it with her, but don’t think I can last the final week with my attitude. I wouldn’t put with someone treating me like this anywhere, but with a T or someone else I really felt comfortable with and trusted and knew me very well I could take it in.

What is going on?

Am I confused about this, or did she get out of line; insult me?

I took a major risk and opened up about a dark, ugly side of me. And got that.

[shezbut]

imapatient!

My ex used to tell me that I "talked down" to nurses always, and that they were insulted by the way I talked to them. I never intended the negative behavior, nor could I see it. So, who knows if he was just being a jerk? But, I always became very frustrated and defensive whenever he made a remark like that !

It's possible that this therapist touched upon your sensitive issue in the wrong way. Perhaps her method is to both talk and act in a way that tells you that she's "the boss". Therefore, she can critique you if she likes. Perhaps their reasoning is to get you past the limit more quickly, by stimulating anger & then teaching appropriate behaviors??

I hope that therapy improves soon, and you start feeling better. Best wishes !

Shez

[pegasus]

((((((( imapatient )))))))

Might be an idea to ask what she means by, 'Get over yourself...'

She might be saying that in a way that is different to how you are understanding it. She might be trying to say, 'Let it go...'

[Berries]

I would be very upset to if I had been talked to in this way!! I think you have every right to be distressed about this!!

I would talk to her supervisor and set up a 3 way meeting between you. Tell that T what you thought and felt about the way she reacted to you and treated you and those, imo, mean words--"get over yourself" she said to you.

You may or may not have been being inappropriate to her or in your past to others, but it sounds like she may have been inappropriate to you too.

2 wrongs don't make a right.

And maybe you could grow as a person if you confront her (in an appropriate, assertive, and productive way) and resolve this issue in a positive way.

[searchingmysoul]

Originally Posted by imapatient

I’m really, really ticked off—furious. I want to tell her off just not go back. Or I don’t want to address it with her, but don’t think I can last the final week with my attitude. I wouldn’t put with someone treating me like this anywhere, but with a T or someone else I really felt comfortable with and trusted and knew me very well I could take it in.

What is going on?

Am I confused about this, or did she get out of line; insult me?

I took a major risk and opened up about a dark, ugly side of me. And got that.

((((imapatient))))

Sounds very uncomfortable, terrible even. And I would say that "get over yourself" is a less than therapeutic intervention.

I can absolutely identify with your feeling of wanting to run, however, I imagine that if you were to stick it out maybe even approach her about it you might learn something very valuable about yourself, about appropriately handling your emotions, about acknowleging your emotions even... It may not be all puppies and kittens and roses but it might be fruitfull...

Good Luck whatever you decide.

[Perna]

I think being as uncomfortable and angry as you sound from what she says means she hit one of your "buttons" and when that happens to me, I "drop" everything and get curious rather than angry and try to get away from me/what I'm feeling/what's being said/done to me, etc. and focus on the situation instead. That it stirs up so much, I'd be instantly alert to want to know "why".

My stepmother was very critical and controlling and I learned from that that everything was an issue? But my therapist, I think it was, once made the comment, "a wet towel on the bed is not a murder" meaning I was treating everything the "same". Think about the words "get over yourself" and try to shrug, say "Okay" and just do it? Try that experiment. Not for the therapist or for intellectual understanding, but to see if you can experience a "shift" in your body/senses. If you think intellectually about the phrase, it's kind of meaningless isn't it, almost "funny"? So go with its meaninglessness and shrug it off. Oh, by the way, "Your mother wears combat boots!"

[darkrunner]

If a T said that to me, I think I would feel very invalidated and even attacked, especially in a group setting. I don't think this is an appropriate way to talk to anyone, especially a T to a client.
(((((((((Imapatient)))))))))))

I know it would be hard, but if you can talk to the T about this it would probably be the best thing to do. Good luck - let us know what you decided to do.

[imapatient]

Thanks everyone.

Pegasus, will you expand on your comment re: losses? She was talking about losses that I carry around--obsess over for years--and feeling hurt by many people. I don't understand the losses issue as possibly relating to her comment.

Another thing she said was "I'm saving your life here." It struck me as narcissistic; arrogant. I mentioned that to 2 others who'd been in group in the group and lunch and they said they didn't see the patronizing issue. But I'm not really sure what they think she meant.

I don't want to talk to her. I don't want to engage. I haven't liked her--brash, confrontational, loud, and demeaning.

Yes, she struck a nerve. But the issue for me is that I feel like I really opened up about my feelings of a very bad side of myself—for the first time in the two weeks-- and she took advantage of my having exposed myself and stuck a knife in me. She doesn't feel safe; the program no longer feels safe. Story of my life: Show a side of yourself by disclosing, opening up emotionally and get hurt. I don’t want to take that risk.

It was a time needing sensitivity for me, not being attacked.

Esp. coming from someone who doesn't know me very well--we don't do individual sessions with any of the T's. A T I've come to trust and respect knowing who I really am--feel safe with--making something like that comment(s) would be much easier to swallow.

[pegasus]

Originally Posted by imapatient

Thanks everyone.

Pegasus, will you expand on your comment re: losses? She was talking about losses that I carry around--obsess over for years--and feeling hurt by many people. I don't understand the losses issue as possibly relating to her comment.

((((((( imapatient )))))))

From what you have said here in no way do I agree with her methods, it does not look like she is showing any sensitivity what so ever.

I was thinking that her comments of, 'get over yourself' were another way of saying, let it go, move on, move forward, don't hold on to harsh comments of the past. Holding on to all the wrong-doings can just make you feel very bitter and doesn't promote healing.

I think you need to speak to your own T about all this, the one that you trust.

[SeptemberMorn]

I'm wondering if this T wasn't just giving you a dose of your own medicine? I don't know exactly how DBT works, and it doesn't seem very sensitive of her, but maybe, just maybe she wanted you to feel what others feel when you put them down.

As a child I was always put down and for 12 years I was married to a man that thought he was showing me he loved me by making fun of me and putting me down, too. I picked up on it and used it on others. I can still do it now if I allow myself.

Since that marriage, though, I learned that a put down doesn't resolve any issues, in fact, it can make them worse; you create many enemies that way. Here, on this site, I've learned to say what I want to say and not hurt anyone's feelings. Here, it's called "flaming." It doesn't fly at all. Your post gets deleted and you get a nice little PM from Admin. So, if I want to be heard, then I have to work at changing how I say things.

Just a thought.

[ECHOES]

DBT is behavioral therapy and about learning skills. "Get over it" kind of comments don't surprise me and I don't see how a comment like that can be helpful, yet we can make anything helpful if we choose to as you are in exploring it now.

You are an analytical thinker. I'm curious why you are not in psychoanalytically oriented therapy.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by imapatient

I don't want to talk to her. I don't want to engage.

Do you have to? Can you not just stay with the group until it ends, without necessarily being in a debate with her? Wait it out, within yourself try to study the situation, and not necessarily talk to anyone else in the group about it...

Originally Posted by pegasus

From what you have said here in no way do I agree with her methods, it does not look like she is showing any sensitivity what so ever.

I was thinking that her comments of, 'get over yourself' were another way of saying, let it go, move on, move forward, don't hold on to harsh comments of the past. Holding on to all the wrong-doings can just make you feel very bitter and doesn't promote healing.

i think this is what the t probably meant as well. for some people a confrontational approach may work, but obviously it wasn't at all helpful to you when you opened up. she was certainly less than sensitive.

i don't think it would be good for you to withdraw or disengage. i think you should talk to her or someone else there about this. please don't let it derail the work you are doing imp! this is an important time for you to get help. please don't let one bad experience ruin what could be the beginning of a turnaround for you. i think it would be better to confront her and move on with your t work. the fact that you opened up is great. you are making progress. you hit a bump but keep going okay. don't get stuck in it.

take care.

[shezbut]

I agree with Reflection.

I can understand how angry and hurt you feel by her reaction to your exposing this very sensitive part of yourself. Don't give in to your intense temptation to clam up & stop going though.

You can do it ! This is a challenge for you to put things into perspective and stay in the moment. Her approach didn't work for you. You can express your discomfort and work through the issue together, or you can just let it go.

Best wishes and hugs to you!
Shez

[imapatient]

I see the point Pegasus is making, and I can see that that was part of what she was getting at. I do think, however, that there was some hostility there--it was an aggressive comment. The way she went from me--for the first time in the 2 weeks--talking about an in-the-present real life behavioral, emotion-based issue to herself and the program is telling. She felt a personal issue and took the oppty to bring it up--to the detriment of helping me with my regular life.

I've spent all weekend with migraines due to this. I spoke to my good, wise, therapy-experienced older (52) friend. Her opinion--supported by her MSW T friend in the background that "get over yourself" is an inappropriate thing to say to a patient no matter what. My friend said she's fly here and birth slap the PH T for me. This friend of mine also said she thinks that the PH T seems to have some personal issues relating to me--feeling threatened, and professionally. She has an MSW and maybe hearing me lament over and over about having to leave a PhD program at an Ivy League school—and possibly returning someday--produces some envy. She leans to thinking I shouldn't return as it isn't a safe place for me anymore.

My regular T said he could see that she might have had--and had some--good intentions, that maybe her approach wasn't good for me; maybe she was driven in part by personal issues.

I finally called someone from the PH program, but I waited too late to call. Voice mail. I asked if we could meet before PH or at break before process session.

There are two other T's--one of them is kind of "light" the other is a lic. psychologist and I really like her. I might talk to her before anything else.

The other/subsequent step is to talk about the issue in process group to get other’s perspective. Since it happened in a process group, it seems appropriate to address in process group. They split us into 2 groups; not sure who's group I'd do it in. Maybe with the T in question, but I'd want her to keep silent while the others in the group and I talk about it before she talks. Maybe in another T's group to work through it while getting multiple perspectives.

I'm enraged, feel insulted, hurt, and don't know that I can trust myself to engage with her 1-on-1 in a calm manner.

Thoughts?

[sunrise]

She was talking about losses that I carry around--obsess over for years--and feeling hurt by many people. I don't understand the losses issue as possibly relating to her comment.

To me the way the losses relate to the "get over yourself" comment would be that she thinks you have made this stuff (e.g. needing to know the reason your T terminated you) have way more importance than it should, in her opinion. "Get over yourself" in that context to me means she thinks you are making mountains out of molehills with your past losses and you should not still be carrying those things around. They just aren't that important, she seems to be saying, or worth all that you have invested them with. Yes, that is a very judgmental comment she made, and obnoxious too. I don't know what DBT is, but some of the others here don't seem surprised this would be part of DBT. Maybe it is a very confrontational therapy and not what would be termed "nice." I'm thinking of Fritz Perls, Gestalt, etc.?

I'm wondering if her hurtful comment to you can be an opportunity/challenge to you to not let this incident assume more importance in your mind than it really should. How would it be if you could just drop it, move on, and not let her have "rent space" in your head? (Someone else said that in another thread, and I thought it was great. ) How would it be if you could say to yourself, she's not perfect, she made a mistake, a T should not be so judgmental, and I don't like her at all? And then don't think about it any more. How would it be to not carry this around with you another minute? Is this T's imperfection reason to drop out of your program? It seems to me that what's important here isn't who is "right". Your T friends seem to agree that the offending T's comment was inappropriate--but is that all this is, a need to show the T that she was wrong and you were right? Big deal--what do you gain by being "right"? Is there growth there? Could it be, instead, that what's important is that you not let this T's comment derail you, that you not let yourself become obsessed by it?

imapatient, it seems to me if an important issue to you is how to stop obsessing about past losses, then you need to find a strategy to deal with that. Have any of your experiences in your inpatient program helped you find ways to deal with this stuff? What if you threw a question out to your process group, "how can I let this stuff go?" Do you think people might have some good suggestions? Can you listen with an open heart and mind and not immediately go into analytic mode and explain to them exactly why their suggestion won't work for you? Sometimes we have to drop our idea of who we are and try on new hats.

Have you ever tried EMDR for these past incidents you are stuck on?

Good luck.

[imapatient]

Thanks for good stuff, Sunrise.

Perhaps her "get over yourself" meant more like "get over these issues." I did talk to another PH member and she, too, was taken aback.

It's not a matter of being right, it's a matter of being hurt and trying to deal with that feeling and subsequent anger. The friend from Ph wants to see it addressed b/c everyone is affected if a T acts inappropriately. She meant what she meant and I took it the way I thought she meant it—possibly 2 different things. But feelings aren’t right or wrong, so the reality of my feelings is a reality to be addressed.

The thing was that I was asking people about how to let go—more so in general--but especially in that session. I was commenting about the real-life issue I was dealing with in the present was preceded by previous events in a lineage of events and communication; events that I needed to get over. I was literally begging for help about how to let go rather than being told to "let go." Then she turned it to her experiences with me in PH and my efforts in PH.

It’s like I was finally on track--a present situation, present feelings, present need to continue acting in relation to the ongoing situation, recognition of how I've been hung up on past patterns and ways of relating, not dealing with issues of the past in my head only--when she responded like she did. Aside from the hurt and anger, I missed out on a good oppty to engage better with peers and her. I was opening myself to more help.

[deliquesce]

(((((impy)))))

sorry sweetie ive been away for a while, hope to catch up with you soon. i need some sleep fiirst, so will try properly tomorrow.

xo

[MissCharlotte]

((imapatient))

It sounds like you need to process this in the other group where she is not leading. If she is in the group then that might hinder your progress once again. Good luck.

[Slothrop]

After reading the comments here, I guess I agree variously with other posters that (a) it was a weird and obnoxious thing to say, suggesting she's a tad too sensitive for her profession, and (b) you can still make lemonade from lemons and use the comment as a learning tool.

I belittle people too--often, strangely, the people closest to me. Bad behavior I got mostly from my dad, but also from a particular friend I had in my younger days. It is definitely something I need to work on.

"Get over yourself" is such an ambiguous phrase that I must admit I don't 100% get what it means. It seems like one of those things that is supposed to be vague, and can be used as a broad hostility when desired. Not really appropriate for any kind of therapy, IMO.

But then again, maybe I should quit analyzing it and just get over myself.

[SavingGrace]

I am currently taking DBT group classes, and I can tell you that Marsha Linehan has much to be desired as far as her approach, and validation skills. She doesn't seem to me to be much of a people person.

My DBT counselor, on the other hand, is wonderful!
She believes validation is the most important part of therapy.
I expressed my thoughts on Marsha, Marsha, Marsha's approach, and she agreed with me! (but thinks the material is good stuff)

(I actually haven't found the material 'life-changing' at all.
It seems to me to be based on philosophy and theology - and is filled with riddles and contradictions - in other words - she has taken skills that are, from a logical perspective, quite simple, and convoluted them to the point a 'normal' person cannot understand what she's saying!)

I don't think your counselor had any right to say what she said. If anything, she should have either asked you some additional questions (if she wasn't clear on what you were saying) - or at least validate that you are entitled to your opinion! Isn't that part of the NON-JUDGMENT aspect of DBT? (hello!) And, in fact, I interviewed w/a DBT counselor and found her approach to be judgemental and she lacked compassion, and I told her that.... "In a FACTUAL, non-judgemental, Marsha Linehan, kind of way.

JUST MY OPINION!

as a side note - her name doesn't start w/a C - does it?

Originally Posted by imapatient

I was trying to open up about an ugly side of mine: The desire when hurt to belittle people, to humiliate them, to demonstrate their incompetence and being “not smart enough.” I’ve been wrestling with my feelings of wanting to strike back publicly at people who shunned me in the reform movement I’m part of.

I think it was brave of you to open up about this side of you. However, when we have such defenses they operate on an unconscious level. Perhaps you have been demonstrating these parts of your personality without even realizing it. Although you opened up about this part of you, and you are aware of it, it doesn't mean this part hasn't been operating. Maybe people have noticed it and the therapist was being confrontational in a way to let you know that your method of relating (belittling, demonstrating incompetence) is just not going to work anymore if you want to make progress. There are many therapists who will point that out in a very direct way in order for you to recognize your maladaptive patterns and find new ways of relating to people.

[deliquesce]

^ problem is, this wasn't direct -- e.g., "i'm not going to tolerate you belittling our work here", it was (imo) simply harsh and uncalled for. being told to "get over yourself" is in no way productive.

[emilyjeanne]

Hello,

I strikes me as weird that this T would act this way. It almost seems that you struck one of her "issues".

Keep talking and don't let her get to you.

[Sannah]

Hi Imapatient, I would suggest taking this opportunity to grow? Your confession was very brave on your part, good work! It sounds like you learned this behavior from your dad? I don't agree with how the therapist handled the situation but I have to admit that your behavior would be hard to deal with in a group situation. The therapist has many people to contend with in the room and you would be more of a challenge (your education and your tactics)...... You have to admit that your behavior that you have described is incendiary and would trigger most people.