[chaotic13]

Kind of SUCKS... BUT

Many of us here want boundaries and structure to our therapy. When I started therapy, for at least the first six months I was going completely nuts because I WANTED A THERAPY MANUAL. I wanted to know what the rules of the game were—So, I could WIN, excel or at the very least succeed at it. I think boundaries tend to make those of us who have either experienced a rigid boundary-FULL childhood or a totally unpredictable boundary-LESS childhood feel safer.
Despite my repeated requests MY T somehow refused to set clear boundaries. (Now that I wrote that…I’m wondering, HOW the heck did she do that? I can’t recall her ever telling me, “NO, I can’t provide what you want.” Because if she had, at least directly, I would have immediately jump on it and used it to rationalize discontinuing. Hmmm, she is even smart than I thought.)

Anyway back to what I was reflecting on today…

I HATED THIS PART OF THERAPY!!! Still do sometimes. This approach bothers me because... well like many people here I don't like to give others the opportunity to reject my requests. Also, I always want to do thing "correctly" and like "normal" people would do them. Since I often think my way of doing things is wrong and abnormal... setting me free without guidance or specified boundaries has been VERY stressful.

Having said that, I’m starting to realize that it may be exactly what someone like me need(s).
Just wondering where you all are on this at the moment?

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by chaotic13

for at least the first six months I was going completely nuts because I WANTED A THERAPY MANUAL. I wanted to know what the rules of the game were—So, I could WIN, excel or at the very least succeed at it.

I don;t think that wanting to have a successful therapy is at all unreasonable. I think it is perfectly reasonable. ****Especially**** when there are issues of trust involved.

I do believe that a basic amount of "this is what you can expect" would be very beneficial; i have read many Ts and Pdocs who routinely present this. Mine didn't, it was a source of extreme frustration for me.

If I understand you, I don't think my F of O had rigid boundaries - at least the children didn't; every piece of luggage we had, as it were, physical mental or emotional, was subject to open & search at any time.

[chaotic13]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

I do believe that a basic amount of "this is what you can expect" would be very beneficial

Absolutely, I would have found this INCREDIBILY helpful and it would likely have lowered my anxiety a lot.

Maybe my T's choice to let me figure it out on my own, wasn't always the BEST choice. But then again, I wasn't being honest with her and I also often didn't communicate and directly ask the questions I had about the process. I sometimes wonder if my T questioned or struggled with deciding how much direction or guidance to give me. Of course, I will never know... maybe she knew exactly what she was doing. I know I sure as hell didn't most of the time.

every piece of luggage we had, as it were, physical mental or emotional, was subject to open & search at any time.

To me this would be an example of living in a highly unpredictable environment where you privacy no matter how good you were could be invaded at any time for any reason.

I my therapy, right or wrong, when I'm confused about what is appropriate or inappropriate, what is considered needy and what is considered independence, etc.... I've had to look within to make the judgment call, then see what reaction/reception I receive. This is tough, but it is helping me see that... often times the judgments I make...aren't wrong or abnormal.

[MissCharlotte]

Just wondering where you all are on this at the moment?

I am still in the dark bumping into furniture.

I remember about two months or so into therapy and I said to T, "I was in therapy before but it wasn't anything at all like this!"

I think I was feeling what you articulated....the wish for some guidelines, the need to do it right, to know the rules, to have a sense of seeing where I was going. I grew up in a family without any boundaries. So whenever I went out into the world I looked for the rules. I learned early that if you "followed the rules" you wouldn't get in trouble. That was my Catholic school experience. So for me there is a relationship between that feeling of wanting rules and the quality of boundaries in our childhood home.

Interesting topic.

[sunrise]

chaotic, I do remember those conversations here about wanting a manual. I remember wanting one myself on certain things, like the "rules" about contacting your therapist out of session. My T sucks at answering his phone messages and it has caused me a lot of stress. I kept thinking I was breaking some of his mysterious rules and that was why he didn't phone me back (or email me back). Sometimes he would specifically tell me in therapy that he would check on something for me and call me the next day. And then no call. This happened so many times and I thought, OMG, I have walked on his boundaries, and I didn't want to have done this, as I respect him very much. But now I see that none of this had anything to do with T's boundaries or any rules about contact outside of the office. It all had to do with one simple thing, that my T sucks at answering phone messages. This seems so obvious now . But back then, I took it quite personally.

I don't know how I came to recognize that, perhaps just through repeated failures at out of office contact. If I had broken "rules" or walked over boundaries, then surely T would talk to me about it in session, express displeasure, etc., but he never did. There were no broken rules! There were no boundary crossings! He was always just his usual great self in therapy, oblivious to any phone calls he hadn't returned.

It just all doesn't seem so bad now. Maybe because I know him better now so I realize he just has poor phone skills. (I have been going to therapy with him for 2 and a half years now--egads.)

I think this does relate somewhat to my childhood and boundaries then, and more recently, in my marriage. I have had similar feelings in my marriage and childhood many times--that I never quite knew the "rules" because I kept getting punished and in trouble for doing things I didn't know were against the rules or that seemed to be fine one day and then the next day they weren't. It was such a guessing game, trying to figure out what I could do to keep these people from getting mad at me. It was exhausting. I kept thinking if I only did things "right", then they wouldn't get angry at me, but that was ascribing way too much logic to their actions. Basically, there were occasions when they were gonna be angry at me no matter what I did, and I kept thinking that they were angry at me because I'd done something "wrong," but their behavior had no relation to what I had done. I did not see that at all. It is a relatively recent revelation to me. It's kind of freeing. It lets me understand that when T doesn't call me back, it is his problem (his disorganization, forgetfulness, overly busy schedule, etc.), not my problem (breaking rules).

In therapy with my T, we don't seem to have a lot of rules, and I actually like it like that. We are very casual and flexible.

[chaotic13]

Originally Posted by sunrise

There were no broken rules! There were no boundary crossings! He was always just his usual great self in therapy, oblivious to any phone calls he hadn't returned.

I haven't broken any rules either. If there have been times when I emailed too much or asked for something that was inappropriate, my T has never told me about it. We were talking the other day about letting my emotions out. I had been to a concert and at one point I got really excited and I had to leave my seat and go out of the area briefly. Between the music and the people screaming around me...I just had to move and didn't want to act like an idiot. We talk about this and she asked me...when was the last time you acted impulsively and either hurt someone or had to apologize for acting like a fool? I couldn't think of anything in the last 10 yrs. After a while I admitted that most of the times, in recent years, I have felt like an idiot because I DIDN'T respond to something and should have.

This whole conversation just got me thinking about my interactions both in T and in RL. In therapy, since no directions or boundaries were given, I wonder if my fear of crossing some unknown boundary has resulted in me setting very strict boundaries that I know are absolutely will not be rejected.

It just all doesn't seem so bad now.

No it doesn't seem nearly as bad now. I have much more confidence that if I cross a boundary (where ever it might be), my T will informing in a way that I can handle.

It was such a guessing game, trying to figure out what I could do to keep these people from getting mad at me.

This is one of the situation that I also experienced. Instability of mood, especially from my father.

The interesting thing that is different between T and those childhood experiences...it that along with this freedom that I seem to be given, my T has also been INCREDIBLY consistent in the way she interacts with me. This has been VERY important. I think this consistency helped me start to trust the relationship and made the environment seem more predictable. I know NOW that if by chance I do cross the line, I will likely not be attached, punished, reprimanded for it. She will not likely respond in ANGER or disgust. She has never shown these behaviors to me, which has been very important.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by sunrise

In therapy with my T, we don't seem to have a lot of rules, .

yes, but from what you say, it took you a couple of years to find that out and by a very difficult, puzzling path. I wonder why it has to be that way... or does it?

[Sad In TX]

I'm not one to have rigid boundaries and expectations, because I've found I set myself up for failure by doing so. But if that is what you need, then maybe it's time for a new therapist.
I do think it's good to have goals. If that's what you need, perhaps in your next session you have a list of exactly what you want to achieve by being there. Otherwise, what are you paying for?

It looks to me that you don't like the fact that you have a problem with control so you want someone to do it for you, or at least help you do it for you. Perhaps that is what your T is trying to do - help you decide when and how to set those goals for yourself. I think you need to give yourself a break and not worry so much about being "normal" as I find this word to be totally subjective.

Write down your goals and discuss them with your therapist. Maybe this way you guys can work out a specific plan as to what to talk about and help in achieving these goals. I think he/she is trying to be flexible to feel like he/she is enabling you to make better decisions for yourself and give you the confidence to make them.

But the thing is with therapy, you gotta give yourself a break. You want to do better, but setting some expectations might be setting yourself up for disappointment if you don't feel you are accomplishing what you thought you should in a specific timeframe. I think our society is so used to the quick-fix (I'm guilty of this as well), we forget that these things and reasons for BEING in therapy took time to surface, so we need to take time to get better.
Take care, you.

My T never gave me any "rules"....like you said in your first post chaotic, I've had to learn to ask for what I need, and risk being rejected. I think that has been a really important learning experience for me - maybe one of the most important things I've learned in therapy, actually.

I was TERRIFIED at the beginning of therapy that I would cross some unknown boundary and get in trouble. But I never did. T is sooooooooooooo consistent - he does not get angry at me, ever. And he gives me pretty much anything I ask for (because he says the things I ask for are "easy" to give me - a hug, or a phone message, or whatever).

I think having to navigate my way around learning the boundaries has been a really important learning experience for me - because it makes me look at myself, any my needs. I am so much better now at asking H to help meet my needs - something I was TERRIFIED to do before.

When I was little and had needs, they weren't met, and I was punished (to put it nicely) if I ever attempted to have a need met..my needs were not important. Now I know that everyone, including me, has needs, and it's okay.... And if I bump up against a boundary in asking to have my needs met, it won't be the end of the world...I am still an okay person.

Chaotic, how long have you been seeing your therapist?

There are so many ways to lay out boundaries. I think some therapists actually do this clearly-- they might even state some boundaries during the initial session.

My T always said that it's his job to take care of the boundaries. I used to worry about them all the time-- in terms of calling, emailing, talking about transference, etc.

My T always said what is not a boundary, which can be confusing!! Ex: Telling me that I can call whenever I want, and say whatever I want on the voicemail.

This was difficult because it seemed so... open. Too flexible. I have gotten used to it. After seeing him for four years, the boundaries seem fairly simple. They are: there is no boundary to what I say in therapy. There is no boundary to how much I contact him. If it ever got to be too much, he will take care of laying out any boundary-- not me.

I think that a good way to think about it, is that boundaries can naturally evolve over time... and rather than having to spell them out, adjustments are made.

A really important thing about not spelling out the boundaries-- it helps us to tolerate ambiguity-- something that people in therapy have a lot of trouble doing.

[chaotic13]

Originally Posted by pinksoil

A really important thing about not spelling out the boundaries-- it helps us to tolerate ambiguity-- something that people in therapy have a lot of trouble doing.

I really like this statement. One issue I have is I do well at work but it is in personal intimate relationships where I struggle a lot. I have a lot of trouble with ambiguity. This is especially pronounce in situation which involve close contact. At work, there is limited ambiguity, most interactions have a clear purpose.

One thing I've been reflecting on lately is the concept that the body knows what it needs to heal. I believe this and I've seen it many times in physical rehabilitation. Some things have happened these last few weeks that... may or may not be coincidence. Although I did not consciously "get" what I was doing, in hindsight I see..."Wow, I've actually been taking small incremental steps to prepare myself for something, without even knowing what it was I was preparing for." I really can't give it words.

Although I HATED and sometime still dislike the openness or flexibility of my therapy. I'm realizing how important that flexibility has been. If I had strict boundaries imposed on me, I might not be where I am at the moment. For example if when I asked, "How many times can I email you between sessions before you say enough is enough?" She had replied with, "It is OK to email me 1-2 messages between sessions." instead of "It's OK if you email me." Then during week that I had an evil monster popping out of my core and I emailed her 4 times with images and thoughts swarming in my head, would not have been shared and discussed. I would not have emailed more than my allotment.

Sometimes the safety and predictability that we WANT, isn't what we really NEED.

All I'm saying is my T's treatment approach... gives my body (mind) the space and the freedom to get what it needs from our relationship to heal. Somehow, she created space and provided just enough guidance for ME create an environment that is conducive to MY healing. It's taken me are VERY long time to construct this environment, but I had to be me who created it. HEY, my T is a constructivist! Hmmm.... had that pedagogy course in graduate school....HATED it too. :-)

I don't operate well without structure...but I think it is what I need.

I feel like I have completed the construction phase of MY space. I have a safe conducive environment to get some of the evil ugliness out. Now I'm not sure I need to get it out anymore. Not sure, what to do now with my hour of safe space.

[phoenix7]

I'm still very much afraid of stepping over a boundary that I dont know is there - waiting for the lights and sirens to go off and the pop of the ejection chair as Im flung out of therapy for crossing a boundary I didnt know was there

[chaotic13]

P7. Me too if I am really honest with myself. Do you ever look at yourself and think...chicken little....the sky is falling...the sky is falling.

My authentic self is screaming .."Forget, worrying about the do's and donts of therapy."."Viva, you chickenshit." How is that for charting a course in life.

[phoenix7]

the sky is falling EEK!

my authentic self...hmmmm lets say my adult self - goes into therapy and says just tell it like it is - unfortunately my adult self leaves just after I go in the door!

Originally Posted by phoenix7

the sky is falling EEK!

my authentic self...hmmmm lets say my adult self - goes into therapy and says just tell it like it is - unfortunately my adult self leaves just after I go in the door!

((((((((((((((P7))))))))))))))))

Are you sure your adult self IS your authentic self??

I'm learning that my adult self is someone I "created" when I was quite small- 6, probably - to be mature, and take care of things and people around me, and not react to whatever craziness I was/am surrounded by. I THOUGHT my adult self was my authentic self when I went to therapy. I would describe that self as logical, optimistic, good at meeting other people's needs, strong under pressure. I was complimented constantly by my friends for those traits.

Now that I've been in intensive therapy for about a year and a half, I know that "self" is only a part of who I am. She is a creation, someone who helped me get through some really rough stuff, but she had worn out her usefulness by the time I started therapy. That "self" doesn't allow for deep feelings, joy, grief, creativity, deep love, receiving love...many, many things that make us human, and wonderful.

So, P7, when you walk in the door and your adult self leaves, pay attention to who is there with T. She and her feelings are part of your authentic self too. Maybe instead of thinking "oh great, here I am, I can't talk, my adult self is GONE", you can look at your Self with curiousity...because whatever part of you is sitting there with T is part of you too, and the more we are willing to meet the parts of ourselves that AREN'T the "adult self" we present to the world, the more we will learn who our authentic self really is.

(((((((((((((((((((((((P7)))))))))))))))))))))))))
((((((((((((((((chaotic))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Hi Chaotic,

To me boundaries are very important now more than ever. I have had people in my childhood who have taken advantage of me because I wasn't old enough to even know what was appropriate or not and especially what to do about it.

Then in therapy, my first T clearly abused ethical boundaries, and the 2nd one also used so much disclosure than it impeded my success in therapy.

With my T now, I had to tell her on one occasion to stop the disclosure, and she listened to me and she respected MY boundary. I think I have learned it is up to your T's do have boundaries that they should be responsible and uphold. But learning what YOUR boundaries are, and how to stand up for yourself when those boundaries are not being respected, is even more important. My T knows my other T's had really poor boundaries and I have been really hurt by this, so she knows for me to feel safe, I need her to be very careful with disclosure. Especially when we are doing some intense work. A T can be very in tuned with you, be caring, etc while holding big boundaries.
You mentioned she has been very consistent, and that so important in feeling safe in therapy. I think it is very important to people like us who have has such unsafe childhoods, that we need to know the rules, in order not to get hurt. It seems like we worry about the unknown rules too, because we probably got hurt from the unknown rules too. But I think your T has shown you that she is consistent, and eventually you will learn not to worry as much about whether you are breaking any rules or not. She will let you know if you do,but not the way maybe someone in your past did, but actually you have very few rules in therapy anyway, it is the T who needs to follow most of the rules if that helps. lol

[chaotic13]

Exoticflower, I think you are right about us fearing invisible boundaries. I am finding that, I do not have a very good tolerance for emotional pain. I worry a lot about doing something that might cause me pain.

My T's consistency and projection of ethical, professional behavior have been VERY important. When I've been in doubt about something, I've been able to tell myself...she is a professional, professionals wouldn't think or do certain things... I'm likely safe.

(((Treehouse))) what a great comment on your authentic self. I'm finding that too. The "professional me" isn't the whole me. And I am slowly realizing that's a good thing. My authentic self seems to be a dynamic composite of a bunch of "selves". Unfortunately, I still don't like a lot of these little selves. I think the personal space created in therapy, has enabled me to share some of these little selves with the outside. Hopefully I'll be able to decide which to keep, which to modify, and which to try and let dissolve.

[Simcha]

Originally Posted by sunrise

But now I see that none of this had anything to do with T's boundaries or any rules about contact outside of the office. It all had to do with one simple thing, that my T sucks at answering phone messages.

LMAO
I know what you mean. I don't have that specific problem with my T, but I've had times in my life where I wondered if the reason I didn't get a callback from a person was if I had violated some social rule that I didn't know about. Later I learned (through therapy, which has helped me to separate fact from fiction in this regard) that it wasn't me who had the problem. Sometimes it really isn't something to worry about at all.

Growing up having to walk on eggshells for the adults around me, I was never able to learn "normalcy" in reciprocal relationships. I had to learn as an adult, and I find I still need reminders from time to time. I grew up in a family that had poor boundaries and a complete lack of normal behavior. From what I know now about what happens to a child who grows up in that sort of environment, I'm only shocked that I came out as well as I did.
The question I often use as a statement is "How ARE you supposed to grow up if you weren't really properly raised?"

I don't know how I came to recognize that, perhaps just through repeated failures at out of office contact. If I had broken "rules" or walked over boundaries, then surely T would talk to me about it in session, express displeasure, etc., but he never did. There were no broken rules! There were no boundary crossings! He was always just his usual great self in therapy, oblivious to any phone calls he hadn't returned.

It took me awhile to realize this too. Not over out of office contact per se, but similar situations. If I had to contact my T outside of session more often though, I would undoubtedly worry about what is "normal" behavior. Never having learned normal behaviors nor appropriate boundaries as a child, it doesn't come as naturally as it does to those who do.

I think this does relate somewhat to my childhood and boundaries then, and more recently, in my marriage. I have had similar feelings in my marriage and childhood many times--that I never quite knew the "rules" because I kept getting punished and in trouble for doing things I didn't know were against the rules or that seemed to be fine one day and then the next day they weren't. It was such a guessing game, trying to figure out what I could do to keep these people from getting mad at me. It was exhausting. I kept thinking if I only did things "right", then they wouldn't get angry at me, but that was ascribing way too much logic to their actions.

Yep, and they got mad at me anyway when I was doing it right.
Later I realized I was doing it "right" all along, and that it was really the adults who had the problems.

Basically, there were occasions when they were gonna be angry at me no matter what I did, and I kept thinking that they were angry at me because I'd done something "wrong," but their behavior had no relation to what I had done. I did not see that at all. It is a relatively recent revelation to me. It's kind of freeing. It lets me understand that when T doesn't call me back, it is his problem (his disorganization, forgetfulness, overly busy schedule, etc.), not my problem (breaking rules).

In therapy with my T, we don't seem to have a lot of rules, and I actually like it like that. We are very casual and flexible.

I discovered the same things in therapy as you did!
I also remember thinking after some sessions when I was processing what was discussed that dang---my therapist is wayyyy more intelligent than I ever knew. I think I'm learning by osmosis or something.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by treehouse

Are you sure your adult self IS your authentic self??

That is such a great question, Treehouse, and one I thought too, when I read P7's comment equating the adult to the authentic. I like to think of all my ego states as a family and when I open my arms wide and draw them all together, that is my self. I think you gotta love them, they are you.

Simcha, it sounds like you and I have gone to some similar places in our therapy journey. (Was that you I saw hiding behind the big boulder at the fork in the path the other day? )

Originally Posted by Simcha

my therapist is wayyyy more intelligent than I ever knew. I think I'm learning by osmosis or something.

I agree about learning by osmosis. My T models a certain way to be (he is very authentic and his inner and outer selves are very congruent), and just being around him helps me learn to be more authentic and strive for greater congruence. Not to mention how he models having a relationship (with me). That's partly why even when we don't do "work" in therapy, it is still valuable, because I learn just by being with him.

[chaotic13]

When reflecting on event over the past year and a half... I am frequently amazed at the things my T did you slowly get me to trust her and start engaging. I think it required a lot of patience on her part.

Originally Posted by chaotic13

When reflecting on event over the past year and a half... I am frequently amazed at the things my T did you slowly get me to trust her and start engaging. I think it required a lot of patience on her part.

I just had this same realization about my T. I was listening to ALL of the voice mails I have from him on my phone right now (I think the VM saves them for 30 days?? 2 months?? anyhow, there were A LOT) and it was like a little trip back through my therapy over that period of time. Listening to it, I realized how authentic and patient and consistent and caring T always is, no matter HOW I am being.

I actually left HIM a voice mail...not to ask for anything or tell him how I am doing, just to tell him how much I was struck by all of that when I heard so many messages in a row, and how much i appreciate him and how lucky I feel that I found him to be my T

We're lucky to have such patient and caring people to work with...

[phoenix7]

the adult self is not real - she is a made up person I invented to survive - I really have no idea who my authentic self is .... or if I even have one

Originally Posted by phoenix7

the adult self is not real - she is a made up person I invented to survive - I really have no idea who my authentic self is .... or if I even have one

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((P7)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

This sounds so familiar!!

Be patient and gentle with yourself. Stay curious. You will find her.

[ECHOES]

I do also struggle with this very much.
Tell me what to do, think, be... and then I know what to do. It is the not knowing what to do that is so anxiety-provoking to me.

But I also understand that someone else setting the rules means someone else defining for me what is valuable and meaningful. I can see that when I take on someone else's values and definitions, I can feel fulfillment, happiness, content... but it doesn't last because it really isn't mine. And because the next set of rules and definitions that comes along can negate those good feelings.
I do not want to be a chameleon, I want to be me.
I do not want to have to wait for someone to value something before I can say that it is valuable. I want to be me.
Conversely, I don't want good feelings taken away by someone who sees things differently than me. I want those good feelings to be me, mine, and allow the other persons feelings and values to be theirs.

If my therapist would have been the way I wished for her to be, I would have spent the last 2 years jumping through her hoops and waiting for my treat of praise and approval from her.
As much as I hate when she gently turrrnnnss the focus of something from her to me, I understand it. I mentally stomp my feet, but I understand it and I appreciate that she wants to know me.
Because she wants me to know me.

[pachyderm]

What a great thread! Lots of people growing like weeds! Yay weeds!