[Rapunzel]

She always before told me that I wasn't crazy. Today she said that I am. I seem to be unable to let go of my delusions because if one gets uncomfortable, I simply jump into my other delusional universe instead. I've lived by two basic premises. (1) Everybody hates me, and (2) I don't really exist, or I'm invisible and don't count. I know that the two delusions are incompatible, and I use one to counter the other, but I don't live in reality. T said that meets the criteria for "crazy" or "insane."

Can it truly be insanity when I am aware of the delusions and can recognize them as such?

[SpottedOwl]

(((Rapunzel)))

I don't hear crazy or insane in your words. I see an ordered mind, able to communicate clearly.

What I feel is a great deal of pain and sadness in those 'delusions'. It literally makes my heart hurt to think that you carry around the weight of feeling hated or invisible all the time.

I see both of those 'ideas', as being a defense against not being hurt. If you are hated and/or invisible, then you will not be able to connect with other people, and risk being hurt by them. That is not crazy, that is just human.

I'm so sorry T said that to you. I'm not sure how it was meant to help.

[Rapunzel]

She might have been trying to motivate me to change those beliefs. We didn't talk about the function of them. It does make sense that they are a defense against connecting with people and against getting hurt. I don't connect with people very well.

[Luce]

Rapunzel, I am really confused. Where in the DSM-IV does it list the disorders 'crazy' or 'insane' and their corresponding diagnositc criteria??

Maybe I don't have the full picture here, but I would tend to call your 'delusions' congitive distortions, instead.

My most prominent cognitive distortion is that nobody could possibly love me. To me it's just a hard, cold fact, and there's nothing I can do that alters it (yet). Would that be a 'delusion' according to your T? Is that a symptom of my own 'insanity'?

Sorry - I am just trying to understand. I am confused!

[KUREHA]

She said that everyone I see thinks I have delusions (I don't)
My psychiatrist showed me some of the letter, when he referred me - so I know what they think.

My psychologist looks for other reasons why I might be thinking it and to try and get me to think about it differently, and she doesn't argue if I'm right or wrong.

That's a better way to do it - not sure how her saying that to you would help

[ErinBear]

Dear Rapunzel,

I read your message and I hope it is okay if I respond. I can relate, because I spent much of my life in a similar quandary as you describe:

Originally Posted by Rapunzel

I've lived by two basic premises. (1) Everybody hates me, and (2) I don't really exist, or I'm invisible and don't count. I know that the two delusions are incompatible, and I use one to counter the other, but I don't live in reality. T said that meets the criteria for "crazy" or "insane."

I think the description your T used, "crazy or insane" is difficult. I think it very possible to hold these ideas and be living in the sane world. As you mentioned in another message on this thread, it may be that your T is trying to challenge your ideas more strongly, and find some ways to get you to re-evaluate them in a different way. I don't know.

I know that for me, these ideas came about in my life as a coping mechanism when I was very little when things were very bad. It was the best way I knew how to cope at the time. I don't know if it is true for you, but somehow I used to make it work in my head, and I didn't tend to think all of those thoughts at once. It was a way of making an impossible situation livable. I found a very good therapist and did a lot of hard work in a safe environment, and am doing much better now. I am much more grounded in myself (if that's the right way to term it) and struggle with these sorts of issues much less - and also recognize what causes it in myself. I don't think I was crazy, but just had coping mechanisms that were unhealthy. In a way they were good coping mechanisms at the time when I was a child, because they helped me survive bad circumstances. But as an adult, I needed to change them, even though it involved hard work. I can't say that I'm perfect. Every now and then, I have my moments. But things are a lot better than they were. I bet your T hopes you'll experience better times ahead, too, and wants the best for you, even if the wording came out a bit strange.

Hugs if okay (((((Rapunzel)))))

Thinking of you,
ErinBear

I'm not sure that these are delusions. There is a difference between something like magical thinking, and a delusion. Many people (particularly those who have a history of trauma) can retreat into fantasy when something becomes too stressful. It is a very primitive defense mechanism, not a delusion or a psychosis.

Paranoia is a defense-- it is NOT insanity. It must have hurt that your T said that. I know it would hurt me.

Originally Posted by Rapunzel

She always before told me that I wasn't crazy. Today she said that I am.

Hi Rapunzel,

First. do you share that you think you are crazey? as in say.

" I'm just crazey." Like "Im no good," or "Im always negative" . etc.

Could she be mirroring back to you ?

Just crossed my mind.

I had a therapist once say to me . Your bieng delusional. but never said what he meant by that or why.

Unfortunatey I was someone who was so naieve I just noded and said yeah okay Im delusional without knowing what it meant and I didn't ask . just sat there going he must know best.

the situatiion i was dealing with was a professor who was an active alchoholic who was indeed hitting on me in covert ways,yet I was delusional . yes I guess that smell of achohol was and the looks and words were all taken wrong. Maybe in my feelings that transpired because of that I became delusional ? I reacted in the wrong way. Instead of reporting him for innapropriate behavior I made it into a fantasy of what I hoped for . That woud be a delusion. i belive. or magical thinking , not based in reality. Denial plays into the mix .

back to this.

I seem to be unable to let go of my delusions because if one gets uncomfortable, I simply jump into my other delusional universe instead. I've lived by two basic premises. (1) Everybody hates me, and (2) I don't really exist, or I'm invisible and don't count. I know that the two delusions are incompatible, and I use one to counter the other, but I don't live in reality. T said that meets the criteria for "crazy" or "insane."

Can it truly be insanity when I am aware of the delusions and can recognize them as such?

Only if you belive them to be true.. and won't let any doubt creep in that they might not be true, LOL LOL LOL!!!!!!!!

I don't know about you , but I have no family . and for some rather cruel happenings from a group of people I thought liked me I pretty much gave up my trust and lost friends.

So in short I have no close friends because Im afraid of rinse and repate and low and behold it has happened again . because of thier distorted fear. thats now mine again.

I frequently feel very alone . because I truely am . we are alone. and the level of closeness is all about those who are committed to you to me I we to them ,

outside the family this level of intimacey is .. well lets say limited . once lost thats "IT" . Maybe thats "my delusion" I think thats being realistic .

sometimes one IS invisable . Walk down a big city street alone.

Is the delusion when its all or nothing ? because the truth is we are invisable sometimes, , others may think about us once ever so often , hopefully because we have not hurt them , and sometimes we are not needed and others think our oppinions do not matter .

but since we are one of a kind our opinions do .


Delusions. I belive for me are seeing things and connecting them in ways that appear to be belivable based on what I see and what I have seen in the past . , and they are not what I conclude them to be.

I'm always struggling to get clarity which is good . sometimes its not possible .
sometimes things are so close visually .

For me some delusions have happened from repeated sexual exposures from men that did happen, ( Ive had numerous.) That lead me to havig some that looked like it but were not. ( I geuss..LOL!)

I was told two inccidents weren't really happening. Well gosh they were staring at me while I was bent over and there was some heavy motion ocuring . So to tell you the truth I couldn't actually see the deed but it sure loooked like it to me and could have. I was the one there. not the therapist.

regardless that incident lead me to a memory.

If you are considered to have such delusions.. just think about what its like to really have something happen and not be belived. and it used against you.

it happens . And That leaves one to feel they are invisable , not really accountable.Don't matter. just like bieng in an abusive home life.

how about that by the nature that one has a mental illness they don't 'REALLY COUNT" boy I got that kind of suttle treatment from a professor or two . the one happened to have a back ground in therapy

hummmmm. I remember telling my therapist 15 or so years ago I wanted to become a "therapist" he didn't encourage me , more discouraged me..

delusions are closely knit with denile . Magical thinking is a wished for hope or dream . Or thinking someone or something will take everything away and make life grand.

Hope you can follow this. its difficult sorting through the run on of thoughts that barage and compete for the key board. No to mention my after thought insertions.

Patricia

[Rapunzel]

I didn't recognize that it hurt, but I did cry when I went back to my car. That's becoming a pattern. Stay numb or just stare back or smile or hold the cats. Then cry in the car.

[Rapunzel]

Maybe all delusions are is cognitive distortions taken to the next level. No, "crazy" isn't in the DSM, but "Delusional Disorder" is. She has said she was going to use that one before. My MMPI results suggested it.

[Luce]

<<Maybe all delusions are is cognitive distortions taken to the next level. No, "crazy" isn't in the DSM, but "Delusional Disorder" is.>>

Maybe that is true, Rapunzel.

I guess what I am really questioning here is your T's professionalism and professional knowledge. It really just doesn't seem appropriate or productive in any situation for a T to tell a client that she is officially 'crazy' when such a term is archaic, unprofessional, and essentially clinically meaningless.

That is what I don't get. I worry that giving you such an unprofessional and meaningless 'official diagnosis' is, at best, unhelpful for you.

[KUREHA]

That's what my psychologist said and my psychiatrist.
She only mentioned it once and now she doesn't say if I'm right or wrong, we just talk about it, neither do the early intervention team.

That's cool because another forum I go on sometimes - they just argue with you about it - which is why this 1 is way better

Are you getting an appointment with the early intervention team?

Originally Posted by Rapunzel

I didn't recognize that it hurt, but I did cry when I went back to my car. That's becoming a pattern. Stay numb or just stare back or smile or hold the cats. Then cry in the car.

I recognize this . It happens to me all the time. I put it in the category of a CPSTD kind of coping response.

Its times like that you gotta hang with it. Rapunzel The crying tells you you have been hurt.
Its official .

Intresting you say your numb . and that you didn't recognize that it hurt.
You did recognize that you were.

Puting words to the how and why we are and for what reasons IS the numbing part don't you think? or the questioning if we need to be ? or what did just happen ? what did they mean by that. ? why did they say that? etc. etc.

Your tears tell yu you are hurt.

no if ands or buts about it.
For me its this hit in the gut feeling. this knocked off guard or my feet .

i fight for the right of Logic durring these times .

Your doing fine.

Patricia

[Rapunzel]

Confrontation can be powerful, and has its place if you are able to accept the confrontation. I think that I am. That doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt, though.

I have always pretty much kept my insanities to myself for the most part, and haven't been a problem for anyone. That has kept me from getting attention and treatment when I needed it sometimes. But there's no early intervention team or anything like that involved. Nobody knows that I'm crazy unless I tell them. It's been years since I have been out of control enough to attract attention.

[Fuzzybear]

[Sannah]

Rapunzel, were you sharing more with her about what is going on inside with you and you got this response?

[Rapunzel]

I couldn't remember how it came up, so I pulled out my notes again. I was actually trying to present something positive to start the session, and told her that I didn't take the office manager's general reprimand for late paperwork (sent out to everyone) personally or interpret it as "she must hate me," as I might have been prone to do in the recent past. T commented on the distortions in my presentation of the situation, including a tone that implied feeling picked on due to unreasonable expectations, and my habitual tendencies to jump to the conclusion that people hate me, and then to start hiding when I can't deal with that.

I also forgot the point that T wants me to restate the problem in "I" terms, such as "I am afraid that I won't be able to meet expectations," and to re-word and deal with reality without delusions and exaggerations. I guess I'm not doing so well at that.

[Kiya]

A little late in the game, but I'm going to jump in too...
to echo everyone else... OUCH!
Also to echo everyone else, you do appear to have an ordered mind, are very intelligent, and rational. those two "delusions" you mentioned are normal for those of us dealing with the same history as you. I lived for years in "invisible" and was never deemed crazy.
Though, this reminds me that any time I suggest to T that something might label me as "crazy" and I am clearly upset over it, T always says "And I know how upset it makes you feel to think that"... never saying that I'm *not* crazy. So, Rap, if you are, you're surely in good company with the majority of the world. And if you're not, neither are we.
((((((((((((((((((Rap))))))))))))))))))
You're tops in my book, for what it's worth. Kiya

Originally Posted by Rapunzel

She always before told me that I wasn't crazy. Today she said that I am. I seem to be unable to let go of my delusions because if one gets uncomfortable, I simply jump into my other delusional universe instead. I've lived by two basic premises. (1) Everybody hates me, and (2) I don't really exist, or I'm invisible and don't count. I know that the two delusions are incompatible, and I use one to counter the other, but I don't live in reality. T said that meets the criteria for "crazy" or "insane."

Can it truly be insanity when I am aware of the delusions and can recognize them as such?

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by Rapunzel

I was actually trying to present something positive to start the session, and told her that I didn't take the office manager's general reprimand for late paperwork (sent out to everyone) personally or interpret it as "she must hate me," as I might have been prone to do in the recent past.

T commented on the distortions in my presentation of the situation, including a tone that implied feeling picked on due to unreasonable expectations, and my habitual tendencies to jump to the conclusion that people hate me, and then to start hiding when I can't deal with that.

T wants me to restate the problem in "I" terms, such as "I am afraid that I won't be able to meet expectations," and to re-word and deal with reality without delusions and exaggerations. I guess I'm not doing so well at that.

Was there any empathy coming from her? Is she helping you understand how you are interacting with the world? Did her "corrections" make you think that she was calling you crazy or did she come right out and call you crazy?

[Rapunzel]

I don't know if we skip the empathy part, or if I just can't feel it, or if she skips that part because I don't respond to it. Even looking at this thread, although I appreciate those replies from people expressing empathy, I tend not to have words to say anything much in response to them. I respond more to questions making me think about it and sort something out. Even though empathy feels better, questioning my thinking and my presentation of my experience does more towards increasing my understanding and working towards actual change. T is very aware that I respond that way. At a point in the past, T withheld all praise and compliments because I was responding to them consistently with self-destructiveness.

She has also, in the past, explained the need for "2x4 therapy" with me because it is the only thing that works. Yeah, she came out and said that crazy was her official diagnosis and what she was going to write in her note. Somehow I doubt that she actually wrote that. Maybe I should ask her to show me the notes and see. Although reading those notes might just be an overdose of 2x4 therapy that I might not be able to handle.

[SpottedOwl]

(((Rapunzel)))

I read your last reply this morning, and then went to my weekly session. I cannot get it out of my head, but I'm a bit raw from my own session, so here goes.

Empathy is not about giving you pats on the back for doing the right thing, rather it is about being able to 'feel' what you are feeling.

I don't think this is all on you -- I think your T is trying really hard to help, but I'm not sure she is being empathetic. Ask T next time how she would feel to be told she was crazy, or to be told that she needed (in effect) to be smacked over the head with a 2x4.

You noticed that you were really sad in the car afterwards. Empathy would be crying with you, or feeling that sadness with you...not trying to shock you into action.

It sounds like you are a pro at beating yourself up. IMHO, you don't need someone to help with that process, but rather someone to say 'feeling sad is totally normal, let me honor that feeling with you.' Let me give you a safe place to feel sad, and to know that I will not think any less of you for showing it.

I just polished off most of a box of tissues in my session. It was all about how hard I am on myself, and underneath it all is a child just wanting to be accepted. It isn't wrong to be sad, in fact it is normal and healthy to grieve for a lost childhood.

Be sad, Rapunzel, and I'll share my tissues with you.

[Rapunzel]

She knows. She was told that she was crazy, and that she would never function on her own, and she fought back against that and recovered.

I don't know why I don't seem to deserve to just be accepted and understood and treated gently. I may be good at beating myself up, but it doesn't go anywhere. I'm not hard enough on myself, or I don't hold myself responsible enough to actually change. I don't know. The child inside wants to be accepted, but has to hide because she never will be accepted. Not really. She knows that she doesn't deserve to ask for any more. It is rare when the tears come, and there are not enough of them. I can't even allow myself a tissue. I just ignore the tears and let them sit there, when they come, until they disappear or go back where they came from.

[Luce]

Originally Posted by Rapunzel

I don't know why I don't seem to deserve to just be accepted and understood and treated gently.

I may be good at beating myself up, but it doesn't go anywhere. I'm not hard enough on myself, or I don't hold myself responsible enough to actually change.

The child inside wants to be accepted, but has to hide because she never will be accepted. Not really. She knows that she doesn't deserve to ask for any more. It is rare when the tears come, and there are not enough of them. I can't even allow myself a tissue. I just ignore the tears and let them sit there, when they come, until they disappear or go back where they came from.

Wow, Rapunzel - there's a statement worthy of looking at more deeply if ever I saw one!

It seems to me that what is happening is...

Child self says... "I just want to be accepted, but I have to hide because I know I never will be."

And adult self responds with... "I'm not hard enough on myself [child self], or I don't hold myself responsible enough to actually change.

Child self wants to be loved, comforted, just to know that she is 'okay',
and yet when she is sad, or crying, she remains completely ignored. (I just ignore the tears and let them sit there, when they come, until they disappear or go back where they came from.)

I wonder how it feels to be your child self?

You know... when a child is rejected, shamed, or ignored, it is WRONG. Whoever did it to you, when you were a child, was WRONG to do that - no exceptions. Because every single child on this earth is worthy of nothing less than love, protection, comfort and care. (Can you think of a single real life child in your life now who would not be??)

Rejecting, shaming, abusing or ignoring children teaches them that they are worthless, unwanted, unworthy, unloved. That doesn't mean it is right, because it is not - but that IS what a child learns when they are treated that way. And that IS what they grow up believing.

And as adults we often perpetuate that emotional abuse against ourselves, simply because we have grown up *believing* that to be truth, and we still believe that if only we were this or that or more of this then we would somehow manage to be okay, or acceptable, or worthy of *being*.

But guess what? Those little me/s were ALWAYS okay. Just as they were. Just as they still are. They don't need to be more or less of anything at all. They don't need to be held accountable or responsible or treated more harshly or 'whipped into line' or anything else.

All they need is for us adult selves to sit beside them, put our arms around their shoulders and say "Hey, I can see you're feeling really sad. It's okay. I'm here with you, just as you are."

That's all.
That's all they need.

[Kiya]

Originally Posted by Luce

All they need is for us adult selves to sit beside them, put our arms around their shoulders and say "Hey, I can see you're feeling really sad. It's okay. I'm here with you, just as you are."

That's all.
That's all they need.

wow ... i really needed to see that too. not just for my internal kids, but for those i care for at school. i needed that reminder.

[Sannah]

Rapunzel, then did your T just blurt this out in frustration?

Originally Posted by Rapunzel

I don't know why I don't seem to deserve to just be accepted and understood and treated gently.

The child inside wants to be accepted, but has to hide because she never will be accepted. Not really.

She knows that she doesn't deserve to ask for any more.

It is rare when the tears come, I can't even allow myself a tissue.

Only you know the answers to these questions and by pursuing them you will get your answers.

She does deserve to ask for more and if you can overcome this hurdle............