Peaceful (I hope) dialog on the battle of the sexes

Oh, I don't need to re-read it; I know what you mean. That's exactly what I thought while I was writing it. On the surface, it appears that the orange people are reverenced just for being orange, with no other difference between them and the green people who are expected to serve them. It is unfair to the green people, isn't it?

But then we look at the thinking behind the behavior. It is assumed that the orange people are flimsy inside and out, and cannot do certain things for themselves. Therefore the stronger green people must stoop to doing those things for the orange people. The flip side is that the orange people are limited in their freedom. They don't have access to certain jobs it is assumed (without testing) that they cannot do. They are denied a role in government because they are presumed to be too unstable to manage the position well. The orange people who fight this, instead of accepting it, are insulted and accused of having green envy. Artificial rules of etiquette are put in place. "An orange person should never curse, show anger or aggression, etc. It's unorangelike." In extreme cases, they are considered the property of the green person who takes care of them, they are expected to be obedient, and are subjected to physical punishment if they make a mistake. With this bigger picture, the little compensations like orange people standing up when a green person enters the room don't seem to balance out.

By the way, AkAngel, I forgot to thank you in detail for your observations about the joke at the other site. I liked your retort about the laundry. It's brilliant. I understand about the defensiveness now.

Which leads to something I considered ignoring but decided to address.

Trance.... it can be fun to poke at the beehive sometimes, can't it? I can react several ways. I can point out that nobody here was putting men down, so to come on with a disparaging remark about female traits was a deliberate act of aggression. (The response would probably be, "Chill, lady, I was only joking. Jeez. Women don't have a sense of humor.") I can say that you're perfectly welcome not to read the thread if it bothers you. I can do what thunderbear did--just laugh and move on. I can run crying to a mod and say that you're baiting me, which I assure you I'm not going to do. I can do exactly what I'm doing--rambling on and proving your point. But what I want to say is that some of us are enjoying talking this issue to death. You may certainly join in if you want to, or not.

I am sooo busy today but I'm forcing myself to take a break cause I'm enjoying talking this to death...you know how us green people are eh? But seriously, I'm short on time so if I am not clear or fail to offer appropraite support to my statements, apologies in advance - no time.

I don't believe that anyone seriously thinks that woman are too flimsy to open a door for themselves, or to remain standing while I remain in my seat on a bus. I'm quite sure that they are not so flimsy that they can't light their own cigarette or any number of other examples. On the other hand, I also do not think they are too flimsy to have to register for the draft before they get the privilege to vote or go out and work and support their divorced husband and child. (Over 80% of all men in the US ordered to pay CS are in full compliance after three years; only 12% of women ordered to pay CS are in full compliance after only one year)

How do you tell the guy who would have been picked next for the NBA draft that he has to go home to the ghetto but the women on the WNBA team who scrimmage against boys high school teams are going to make six-figures or better this year? Why not one team - and if you're good enough to make the team then you are - man or woman? Why can women try to qualify for the PGA but there have been court decisions preventing men from playing on the WPGA tour? WGM stands for Women's Grand Master in chess - how on earth do they justify that? Women's poker tournaments? How come a woman can go to a woman's gym to work out but it was declared discriminatory and illegal for gyms to have a men only policy back in the 70's?

I am Navajo, my wife is Spokane. 300 years ago we lived an entirely different life than we do now and yet, we are still afforded certain 'rights' or allowances as our cultures make the transition from indigenous to modern. We are allowed some subsistence hunting that non-native peoples are not allowed. We are allowed to govern ourselves, with limitations, upon our lands. Some of our people have free medical care. On the other hand, ever try getting a job 'in town' when you're Indian? Ever be honored for doing something that ten million white people did without fanfare? I'm old enough to have seen the "Dogs and Indians Stay off the Grass" signs that used to be prolific in some parts of this country that espouses equality.

Every societal transition or evolution takes time and comes in stages. There are outdated prejudices and attitudes towards women; some work for them, some against - but patience, perseverence and mutual respect will get us through.

I've got to get off and go do stuff too, but you said that beautifully. Excellent discussion.

OK, I'm back. Something just occurred to me. In the thread title, maybe "difference between the sexes" would have been a better choice of words than "battle of." I don't want us at war with each other, and I don't want to give off that impression. It's just a cliché, that's the only reason I said it.

Would anyone rather I asked a mod to change the thread title?

I was joking...and I apologize if I offended anyone...

I have read this thread with great interest. I once heard a story about a situation that occured where an older man held a door open for a younger woman, upon entering the doorway the young woman said to the older man "you don't need to hold the door open for me, I am capable of doing it myself, just because I'm a woman dosen't mean I need help" The older man responded "young lady, I didn't hold the door for you because you are a woman, I held the door because I am a gentleman."

Some women wonder why they get the door shut in their face, why men don't tip their hat, or stand when they approach, or make bodily noises or cuss around them, or don't open car doors for them or, push a chair in for them. It is because our society has eliminated the sexes and made us gender nuteral. I think it is wrong, I think women should be treat with respect and honored as the givers of life and nurterers that they are born as.

I knew you were joking, but I took the bait anyway. I can be hypersensitive sometimes. I really need to work on that.

AkAngel said-- though I'm NOT condoning such practices(I don't care for any person to always be made out as the one without a brain).... it does make sense that women in general would be more defensive about it-- we've only had "equal" treatment for about a century. It's a recent past filled with abuse, no value and no where to turn. Men don't have any past like that.
It's similar to racist jokes.... it seems OK to make fun of white people--(like the movie-- "White men can't jump"-- you'd NEVER see a movie that said Black men can't ______ whatever) one would be in trouble if they made fun of other races. I think it has to do with past oppression. It hits some right to their raw nerve.
It may seem oversensitive to some-- but-- I think it's more about fear of losing their place they've struggled so hard for generations to acheive.

fins

fins,

I always appreciate your views and am glad you shared your thoughts on this. While I agree that men do not have a past like women, I reject the idea that men don't have an abusive historical past for which societal gender beliefs and roles are directly accountable.

There is no doubt that women were treatedly prejudicially and were not allowed many privileges that were granted to men solely on the basis of their gender. It is also true that men suffered horribly as a result of that imbalance too.

We were not allowed our feelings causing untold suffering and mental illness (which in turn caused them to victimize others, often women) The idea: The body weeps the tears the eyes refuse to shed, is a warning and the reality for generations of men and boys who were taught to distance themselves from their feelings until they were strangers.

Men were the only ones sent off against their will to die in war (via the draft) for over two hundred years. Though we don't have a draft now, men still can't vote unless they register. A woman has the right to vote, a man must earn it by entering a lottery to be sent to his death at the whim of his government.

While women were not allowed or encouraged to work for the most part (though many professions were always open to them), men were implicitly required to work and accept total responsibility for the financial welfare of their families, often breaking their bodies down by working at whatever it took to pay the bills.

Have all men lived up to the best of societies desires for them? Of course not. Many have abused their power - as have many women, though their powers are different. I firmly believe that every benefit society offers either sex based only upon their gender comes with a price tag and every detriment comes with hidden blessings.

Purple_fins is right. AkAngel is right. I'm a man. I'm really not bothered about TV commercials that make men hilarious. I don't think most men are. Women's position is so different. They haven't yet relaxed into their current reality. It will take a long time for them to do so. I don't believe that men are being persecuted. Listen, guys, we've been "on top" (ho! ho!) forever and a day. Give the girls a chance to get accustomed to being equal. It's been a very short time since it occurred. Of course, they're still nervous. Will it last? They don't know. Let's show them that , yes, it WILL last. They will be equals forever after. After several generations they will accept this. And then things will even out. I love women. I don't want them to be uncomfortable and feel bad. If that means putting up with silly commercials, so be it. The kinds of changes we're talking about here don't happen over night. But they do happen. Have faith. Your great-grandchildren won't be concerned about this at all.

Take care.

While I can appreciate this for sure I can also honestly say that it WASN"T women that made those laws. we didn't DO that TO men. it's laws that were made by men-- to men.
so yes, it is sad and perhaps seems abusive to some-- I don't see though, how they are on the same caliber as to how some races and women have been oppressed.

I think this was, in the past-- just common sense-- as there wasn't good birth control and if all the other armies had just men-- then the one with men AND women-- would sadly be at a disadvantage, as they would have been slowed down by pregnant women, and those, like myself that are 115lbs and 5'3" (and what about that time of the month.... would there be time to stop and wash the "rags" and then reapply them?)... I admit I can't carry as much as a 180lb 6' man nor can I go as fast... so which army would be more likely to win?? would you want to risk losing your home, country and such?...

YES, I so agree.

fins

Good post. The problem as I see it, is not with you or I being concerned or adversely affected by the messages we hear on shows, movies and commercials...or society in general, there are so many systems in conflict. What troubles me is that if women are right, and I believe they are, then generations of young girls internalized negative messages and carried the scars, insecurities and low self-esteem throughout their lives. If men and women are equal, then I expect the same will happen to generations of young boys. I'm not worried about us - but I think our great-grandchildren, while no longer concerned - will be affected.

No, it wasn't women who made those laws but the same men that made those laws also passed the 19th amendment, child support laws, laws providing alimony etc. I can appreciate the difficulty in seeing how men's issues can compare to womens - I don't know that they are equal, I just feel that they are. Forcing someone to be subservient stinks. Forcing someone to be in charge stinks too. Following is hard - but so is leading. I am a combat veteran and have followed stupid orders that put my life in danger; I have also had to put my men's lives in danger. The latter was much more difficult.

The problem with this argument is that it can also be used equally to prevent women from entering fields like law enforcement or fire fighting. That some women are 115 pounds and 5'3" and can't carry as much as the average man doesn't prevent them from entering other dangerous professions - and shouldn't. In fact, a 115 pound, 5'3" woman can enlist and insist that I risk "losing my home, country and such" in the name of equality - she just can't get drafted.

Yes, for some following IS hard-- but some like to follow. and yes, again-- leading IS hard too-- but some really love to lead.
I can only imagine how hard it must have been to have had your life put in danger..... I had a gun to my back once(as a child) and that was scary enough. I think the situation of having to put your men's lives in danger being so hard for you is because you are very compassionate. (it must have been very stressful)

this is where I won't be very popular......... I dont' agree with women being in positions where lives can be on the line and being thought of as physically equal to a much larger man. I think that frame of mind is not running on common sense nor the best interest of the lives at stake.

And while I can see that for some men-- being the sole breadwinner may not be a thing they feel they can/want to do, there are a lot of men that LOVE that idea -like it that way. And those that don't like it that way are fortunate nowadays-- as more and more women are out earning a living for their families too. Men don't have to be the sole breadwinner anymore...... I hope that they appreciate it and in doing so, learn to cook, help with the laundry, help mop the floors and bathe the children.

I think for me it's much more about respect and being valued than it is about doing equal things.

fins

Women will never be equal as long as domestic violence is not taken seriously. Women are still being sold into slavery. The situation in Darfur is so tragic. Most religious institutions are headed by men, some of whom do their best to keep women subservient. It was not that long ago that young girls in Iraq had acid thrown on their faces. Men have done horrible things to women.

I recognize there are two sides to every story. Nonetheless, history is not kind to men in the way they have treated women.

UH, I believe that a 5'3" 115 lb woman can be on equal footing within the Police Force or Military. The great equalizer .45 cal. pistol and 7.62mm M-16 Rifle make it possible. I have seen many female Police take down a 300 lb. macho man and make him cry like a little boy.

Oh, and my wife stays home and I bring in the $$$, we don't have any kids at home and we love it that way. I feel like I am providing for my woman and I know that deep down in their hearts many, many women want that too. They want to be taken care of and there is nothing wrong with that.

I cried when I got to this, a good cry...thank you.