Intimacy Issues with My Wife

Well I guess we are in "deal breaker" territory, however, I'm nowhere near that point because there are MANY other things to consider, like our kids, our home, etc.

We are good friends and do enjoy hanging out with each other. The weird thing is that I do think we are compatible sexually, because when we do get together it's usually good.... I'm just on a different level than she is with what I'm willing to try, creativity wise etc.

I want her to let go, trust me and have fun.... I mean seriously, how hard is it to just go with the flow for a few hours a week?

Irreconcilable Differences, as it stands. Sorry.

(my good friends - also both incredibly awesome people - divorced for the very reasons you have explained. He tried absolutely everything in his power to make things work. Including all of the compromises and concessions you described. They also have children. He stayed for years. Bending. Settling. Not because he had to, but because they were BFFs and he loved her deeply. He even moved out of the bedroom to compromise.

He finally had enough, though, and they split up. They went through mediation because they had the kids top of mind, and it was already painful enough. Neither was finger-pointing nor greedy. He continued to support her and the kids because that it the type of guy he is. It took her over 3 years, but having to account for finances and make the move from shopping at Whole Paycheck to whatever amd not having him around any longer to take for granted, she "got it".

She went from her parents (not perfect by any means), to college, to her husband. She never had to take care of herself and be responsible. So the whole not wanting to be intimate equally thing, amounted to a lot more for her than just not wanting to be intimate.

He has moved on and is in a terrific relationship with another wonderful woman. But someone with whom he is more compatible.

And she is working on learning to be independent and not take people / things for granted.

The sex part for her was just never there for her, too. It had nothing at all to do with him or his appearance or personality or masculinity. He is super attractive, but his situation with her in the marriage (feeling rejected and dismissed) did affect him and his self-esteem. You can only compromise so much and then it takes a toll).

I can also say beyond a shadow of a doubt, he remained faithful the entire marriage. No matter how difficult it was, he maintained his dignity.

Rose,

I cannot even begin to imagine how difficult that would be....

It's hard to believe that anyone would be so inconsiderate in my opinion. I mean how hard is it to show some compassion for the man/woman you marry?

Nobody is perfectly compatible, there is always a spectrum.... some people are very unreasonable though.

I understand I may not get all the intimacy I want, I'm just hoping we can meet in the middle...

casurfer - when you talk to your wife, do you use the words I put in bold in your quote? or, do you use these words when talking with us only, but not with her? if the latter, then can you tell us what words you use when talking with her?

I am wondering out loud, because I find it difficult to believe that a woman who has heard you use these words would continue the pattern of behaviors that pains you so much. So I wonder if you call a spade a spade on this thread, but somehow mince words when talking to her, and thus fail to get your point across.

No I don't use those words with her... the only time I would even come close to using those words to describe the problem is if we were in a full on fight... and since I've been seeing counseling I've been working VERY hard to NOT raise my voice even if she is.

The real pain for me is just not having dialog about intimacy and sex with her... when I bring it up, she avoids the conversation.

Honestly I think I can get through to her with the help of our counselor, assuming I can convince her to go.

If she refuses to go to the counselor (I think she will go though), I will use the words "deal breaker".... if you don't even try to get help, then that really is a deal breaker.

write a letter. calmly. you have three days off starting tomorrow (you are in the US per your location, so I assume that your employer is closed on Labor Day). Use the time to compose a cool, rational, non-accusatory letter to her. Make it nice so that it is clear that you are not shouting in writing. Paragraphs, bullet points if you like them, a clear structure, edited for grammar and style, and, of course, with a list of things that you LIKE and APPRECIATE coming from her. I do not think a third party is necessary (the counselor is a third party) because you have not even tried dealing with this one-on-one with her. If you have never used the term "compassion" with her, then, basically, you have never made your point. You have not even started.

I would start with:

"DW,

There are some very important things I have been wanting to tell you, and I thought that a letter would be better, so that you can absorb what I have to say, ponder it, and think about my concerns without being rushed to engage in a conversation. I do not expect a swift response - these issues have been accumulating over the course of two decades, and I do not expect to achieve a quick resolution. Rather, I want to chart our joint course for continued success as a married couple, and need you to be fully on board with me. Please read on, think it through, and take as much time as you need to respond. I will wait patiently. Do not, however, avoid responding or engaging in a conversation altogether - as you will see when you read further, I have concerns that are too serious to be continuously swept under the rug. I do need to engage you, but do not want to rush you.

...

...

thanks for reading to this point. I do love you - you got that part fine, right?
DH."

PS

I would start with "compassion" though, and not with "a deal-breaker" and "you cannot expect me not to look for sex elsewhere" etc. That would be a bit too much given that you have not tried gentler measures first.

Stay on message - you need "compassion" from your wife - what is so horrible about it? Aren't you well within your right to expect a little compassion?

See how she responds to that. Also, it would be a Litmus test of her character.

Ok thanks for the advice

I think Hammy has some really good suggestions. Hopefully, the letter will help kickstart a new normal for you two. And...

Yes, it was hard on him. But she claims it was hard on her, as well. She accommodated him / his needs to the best of her ability, but she really wasn't interested in his "middle". A couple times was enough for her. And as far as creativity ... it felt demeaning to her, as well.

Not for lack of trying, though. They had the talks, went to therapy, couples and individual, etc.

It really had nothing to do with compassion, either. Mercy effs are demeaning to both parties. And she was doing the best she could. She just wasnt interested. In her mind, for her, she was "compromising", too.

They did their best at the time. But after 23 years, if it isnt really there, it's not there.

I really hope you can meet you in the middle! I really hope the letter breathes new life into your desired intimacy in the relationship.

You are a good man.

Having thought more about it, I want to re-iterate the suggestion of a letter. Admittedly, I happen to like writing as you can see from the post count , so I am biased, but please hear me out.

When you appeal to any third parties - and a counselor is a third party - there is an undercurrent of "h/she will set it straight, take my side, finally enable me to get the point across, etc." The way you phrased it in your post, you made an impression that you were hoping to "recruit" the counselor. At least that is the way it sounded. And if you, indeed, succeed in "recruiting" the counselor, then it would be 2 against 1. And that is not fair to her.

So start with a 1-on-1.

It is true that some of the best counselors would be able to remain neutral mediators without taking sides, but even if you find such a stellar counselor, merely suggesting that you need a third party to talk to her might trigger her BIG TIME, because, as you said in one of your earlier posts (I am sorry I am too tired to look for quotations), she really dislikes being told by somebody that something is wrong with her. Given that you are dealing with this kind of material, I think it behooves you to try a monologue first. If it fails, then proceed to trying to have a dialogue mediated by a counselor.

I hope your letter gets through to her

I like the idea of writing down what we are both seeking, but I don't want to go so far at first of writing a demand letter. We are going to talk sometime this weekend.

As far as the counselor, the person I am seeing is the woman she chose several years ago, so she is familiar with the situation and is quite neutral.

My counselor aready thinks I'm taking it a little to personally, but she also thinks I have reasonable requests.

The goal is to get on the same page.

I feel sorry for the other couple Rose described. I can't believe that someone would throw away a relationship by not being intimate with the person you marry. It's not that hard to get together a few times a week...

Is it reasonable to request the following:

1. Be open to being physical most of the time. 3 yes out of 4 reasonable requests (meaning we have time, not too late, no one is sick etc)

2. Request her to be open to different 'routine' or approach. She likes to have a sort of scripted routine, which is fine most of the time, but I want to have a different approach sometimes.

3. Try to get together at least 2 times per week (obviously that's not always going to happen, but I'd like to at least have a goal in mind). Also that means that sometimes I may request 3 times a week, so I'd like it to go both ways. I think her ideal is really once a week.

4. Be open to communication of new ideas and keep an open mind. Right now I don't get the feeling like I can tell her what I like...I'm pretty sure she'll be fine with communication as long as she knows its not going to cause any conflicts (it won't with me as long as she's willing to discuss things with me sometimes)

Are these reasonable? Am I asking too much?

It would be for someone who has intimacy issues...I don't know how your wife actually feels about intimacy, but if it bothers her because of something that happened in her past or whatever, it may feel like you're forcing her into it in a way which is just going to make her feel less comfortable about intimacy.

Plus, if someone really has intimacy issues, it doesn't mean that they're not into you. It may even be tearing her up inside and she may even feel worse than you do. And she may even feel embarrassed about it and what she thinks may be "wrong" with her, hence why it's difficult to get her to go to therapy. But I don't know, I'm not your wife...but it's possible.

Look, you seem like a really nice guy, who's trying really hard to fix this, which is probably more than the vast majority of guys would have done. But have you imagined how she may feel? Maybe you have and I missed it in one of your previous posts.

This thread has hit a nerve with me...I imagine that I will end up like your wife someday, maybe worse. And since it hasn't actually happened yet, this doesn't mean anything to you and I'll likely be ignored, and that's fine—I'm used to it.

But this:
This really bothers me. I don't know how to communicate how this makes me feel in a polite way...

You've probably answered this question before, but has she always been like this to a certain extent? And if so, why are you holding it against her now. Something like this doesn't "magically" go away. I'm not saying it can't ever be fixed—maybe it can, but be careful you're not making her feel worse and pushing her away in the process.

I like the letter idea, but I'm not sure this the point to bring up your "reasonable requests". They may sound unreasonable to her at this point, but maybe they'll be reasonable to her in future.

And please try to not become resentful. If you don't have the patience to go through what will likely be a long and painful process, it will be very difficult to make this succeed.

I think you are putting the cart before the horse by asking whether the requests are reasonable. Do not make any requests - reasonable or not. Just state how you feel, how her consistent pattern of saying "no" affects you, etc. That alone would make for a long enough letter - even if you simply condense your posts on this thread into a letter about how you feel.

No requests - leave it open-ended and see how she responds. Let her try some creative problem-solving. See how it goes.

I Am The End...with the "throw away marriage" I was referring to the couple Rose described in previous replies.

To answer your question, we met very young so yes she has always had some issues with intimacy...however when she wants to be with me things are fine. She likes sex, she masturbates too, so when I ask whether what I am asking for is reasonable, I think it is given that we aren't starting from zero connection.

Also we are really close in other ways...best friends and really don't have other issues.

I have thought about how she feels, and I've been extremely patient and changed in ways for her.

From your perspective she may have challenges with this, but so do I...meaning I've been the same too.

What we need to do is get dialog and compromise where the middle is.

With the other couple Rose mentioned, she agreed to be with him then eventually decided she didn't want to any longer. I think that is sad.

Personally I don't want to live a passionless life. (We aren't there now so I don't think that will happen), but if the situation Rose describes happens to me, then that would be horrible!

Many men (myself included) find happiness in their relationship and validation by having their mate be with them physically. If your wife is going to reject you, then that's a big deal and a blow to self esteem.... I don't know how someone can expect devotion to them without being devoted back.

I don't want any other woman, but if she decided she was done being physical and connect emotionally to me, I don't think that's acceptable in a marriage unless we both agreed to that!

So do many women. I do not like that your T is engaging in gender stereotyping.

I guess hamster has a point here.

If you write your full requests (which i think very reasonable, for all that matters) she might get defensive: I don't do it right, he is not satisfied with me.
When you get defensive, things are not going far, generally speaking.

Tell her about your needs, how you feel, the intimacy lack that you feel and just barely hint at something specific.

Let her come out with solutions.

You just express your feelings, just like you did with us here.
If one day you could let her read all these posts..... that would mean she is on the way out

Hamster...

She does know how I feel. I think I need to be more positive with her, because we have had this issue for a while, and she has improved some. So the initial shock has already happened and I don't want to freak her out by making her feel like I'm totally unhappy, because I'm not totally unhappy.

I just want a little bit more openness and more passion. In return I'll do whatever she wants.... Massages, laundry whatever, and I think she knows it. I spend time listening to her every day after work. Leave little notes, buy flowers, watch the kids so she can work out. I'll walk through glass for her!!!

She knows I'm super loyal and devoted...I work hard for the family, stay in great shape, have all my hair...etc.

I don't think that relaxing and spending 3 hours per week of quality, intimate time together is too much to ask. If she does, we'll have a problem!

Ok, then take the glass half full approach - preface the letter with stating your happiness with the progress that has been achieved to date.

Bonnie,

Thanks, I like the idea of asking her what she thinks is reasonable first makes a lot of sense. I also want to give her a chance to ask if there are things I can do to make her life more full.

Then later on gently ask her my requests.

I just want to know where the 'middle ground' is (and perhaps she does too)

When we are together, I know she likes it. I focus on her 90% of the time, which I like...I just want her to do the same from time to time, and to not say no.

Right now she dictates when, and where unwittingly!

[QUOTE=BonnieG2010;3254094]I guess hamster has a point here.

If ou write your full requests (which i think very reasonable, for all that matters) she might get defensive: I don't do it right, he is not satisfied with me.
When you get defensive, things are not going far, generally speaking.

Tell her about your needs, how you feel, the intimacy lack that you feel and just barely hint at something specific.

Let her come out with solutions.

You just express your feelings, just like you did with us here.
If one day you could let her read all these posts..... that would mean she is on the way out [/QUO

Hey Guys I am new here. My wife of seven years married together for ten plus told me she is not physically attracted to me anymore. We have two children together, 4 and 2 and I have a child from a previous marriage. We are all busy but our sexual tension has gone on for many years. It's hard not to read into this and to get very angry but I can't think about how life would be without my wife and children as a united family. I feel she is being self centered in the way she is going about trying to get through this, even though she only mentioned to me a couple of days ago. She's not really telling me she is full on committed to working this out. I really don't know what she is thinking. Thanks for listening,

Hi Dallas
I have no idea why this is going on, of course, but sex if often the tip of the iceberg. Sex requires such a big intimacy and when we (I mean women, generally speaking) feel something wrong in the couple, the first thing that we withdraw from is sex. But is only an indicator that something wrong is going in the couple.

Sometimes it's not so easy to know what she is not satisfied with or maybe, if you think better, you can think of requests your wife have made to you that you could not agree to. Maybe the problems dates long ago and surfaced just now.

PLease think that sex is often the indicator that something in the couple is not quite right. Something that has nothing to do with sex.

I guess couple counseling will be the best choice for the 2 of you
Best luck

I agree.......

Dallas, I am sorry to hear that.... I am having anxiety issues over this dilemma, but I do believe my wife does want to work on it. We are still together, just not as often as I would like right now and I just feel like it's not easy to ask her to be with me. If she cut me off completely, I would be totally upset.

One question though Dallas.... are you in shape and do you take care of yourself? I know it's superficial, but it does matter in a sort of primal way. We both take care of ourselves so that helps.