Can't talk to my wife

This reminds me of a movie classic starring Betty Davis called Mr Skeffington where she played a woman that only cared about how attractive she was and having different men pursuing her. Her real love was the attention and to just be dotted on.

What’s interesting about “classics” is how they capture behaviors in human beings that are in fact “timeless”. Every time someone talks about focusing on behaviors more than labels I do think of the many classics that did just that. If you were to watch this movie and focus on the behavior you would see just what I mean.

Betty Davis really did an excellent job in portraying this charecter’s clearly narcissistic behavior pattern of a woman who needed everything to revolve around her not seeing the emotional needs of others or even really caring.

Would be interesting to see what your wife would think of this movie. She may lack the depth to get it. One never knows.

The challenge of writing a letter the way you so desire is that when someone deflects to avoid self reflection they tend to always find some way to do so no matter how much anyone tries to direct them to self reflect. Often it becomes a part of their very character and that is often something many therapists will say is something that’s resistant to change.

Well, again, the severity of the behavior doesn't concern me. Everyone has their tolerance levels. I was using you as an example of behavior that people tend to roll their eyes at. This isn't my exact scenario. If we are swapping war stories then, yes, she does something similar. If she sees a guy jogging with no shirt on, she will blurt out "Naked Man!" I'm still confused as to what response she expects from me on that. My scenario is more about the vague acquaintances she has built up that she knows she can go to for sexual attention. But even this is stuff good intentioned people tend to shrug off.

But I just really need validation. I need a boost of confidence to say no matter what other people do, I am a good person.

Ya, you really can't change a person. No matter how hard you squeeze.

I really appreciate your understanding of my situation. You really put it in an fair light. I'm not looking to demonize my wife, nor am I looking to make myself feel better by trying to be right. It's more of a battle between our low self esteem defenses.

Of course you are a good person. Your wife’s behavior isn’t a reflection on you. Feeling certain way about what she does or doesn’t do doesn’t make you a bad person. Other people’s behaviors aren’t reflection on us

I now think there are some fallacies in Esther Hicks law of attraction philosophy but I did like the advice she gave on this Youtube video ( YouTube) about how to not allow others to get you down:
It feels a little confusing to you because in your scenario here, you were feeling good until they were not feeling good and then they dumped their not feeling good into your feeling good then you didn't feel good so it feels like they are the reason that you don't feel good but there was something that happened before any of that happened and that was you had a vibration of expectation about what you were going to get from that person. You know what's really an important thing to realize is that your vibration is where you last left it on every subject so since that's something that often happens, it comes to be a practiced vibration. That's what a belief is, it's a vibration or thought that you continue to think. Expectation and belief are just practiced thoughts. So the remedy is you've got to think other thoughts even though those are the most obvious, logical thoughts and that feels annoying, it makes you want to yell, "Why do I have to do the calibrating--that's the one causing the trouble." We say because you are the attractor to you. Sometimes you have to step back away from it; it's nice when you can get away but while you are away, if you can do something to get out ahead of your next encounter by activating in yourself deliberately things about that relationship. In other words, we can feel that you're not ready to walk away from that relationship. Sometimes you are. Sometimes you trip over something so many times and you calibrate so often...when someone in your world keeps giving you the residual stuff that you keep trying to clean it up eventually you will clean it up enough that one of two things will happen: either they will join you in your non-resistance or the law of attraction will bounce them off. But what happens to so many of you -- you don't like the idea of being bounced off from anyone even though they are miserable to live with...So rather than hold your own, and call them to you, you calibrate to them and complain about it. So you just sort of kind of have to decide that it matters to you enough to feel good that you're going to find a way to do it more and more...

The part of the above quote that I think is helpful is that, in relationships, we can get into certain patterns with people that can be hard to shake. If we start seeing their flaws or feeling negatively about their flaws, it can become our main thought about them rather than what we love best about them then it wrecks the relationship. When this happens we really have to either keep trying to change our unhelpful thought patterns or walk away. I think is best to determine as quickly as you can whether you are going to commit to changing your thought patterns or walk away. The situation and your free will determines the choice. Don't be afraid to choose. In the past, I have struggled with choosing what I should do about this situations but now I realize that that stemmed from looking back to the past rather than forgiving everyone involved including myself (you can forgive but still walk away when it is appropriate) and moving forward trusting that I did the best I could and that it would all work out. So in the case of your wife flirting, try not to look back to the flirting in the past but try to value yourself enough to call it out when it happens or walk away if she goes over the line. Since you are choosing to stay, try not to expect her to be this way, but rather, decide what you will or won't put up with and stick to it as best you can. When you stand up for yourself in a reasonable way it will build up your self esteem immensely.

I like the idea of making a decision.

Personally I like to look at a situation in terms of serenity prayer: can I change it? If yes then I change it. If it cannot be changed, then you got to accept it and find peace within yourself to not agonize about it.

Third option of not changing the situation and not accepting it, is a guaranteed life in turmoil and suffering. And sadly that it how many people live their entire life. We only have one life and it’s quite short. Spending it in suffering is not the best option imho.

Now I believe people can change some of their behaviors in a compromise with their partner. That’s why it’s important to tell your partner what bothers you. They can change some behaviors.

But I do not believe people can change who they fundamentally are. And we shouldn’t expect them to. We are either accept who they fundamentally are or we find more compatible partners.

I think that one of the challenges you have guy111 is that you think that if something bothers you when it comes to someone else’s behavior that is disrespectful then you lack self esteem. That if you make an effort to explain how your wife’s behaviors affect you emotionally and she dismisses it and it upsets you then you have low self esteem and it’s YOUR problem or fault. After all, isn’t that what the marriage counselor told you?

Well from what you have shared your wife has a little group of guys she interacts with that feed her ego and she has a bit of emotional affairs with them. That behavior is something that would bother a lot of people not just you. It would really bother me if my husband was engaging a number of younger single girls that he flirted with because they tell him how handsome and sexy he is. It would also bother me if some marriage counselor encouraged me to think it’s my fault that it bothers me. Or that if it bothers me I must have low self esteem issues. That’s BS.

The reason different members kept wanting you to explain what your wife was doing that’s upsetting you is to understand what you are addressing better.

One of the things I learned in reaching out for therapy while dealing with my older sister is each therapist listening to me explain different challenges I faced is they all said I am dealing with a disordered person and the two disorders each therapist came up with were that she is either a narcissist or has borderline personality disorder. Both of these disorders are individuals that tend to have control issues and they are both very manipulative and tend to create drama. Along with that is in both challenges the emotions are typically all about them in their own ways they tend to have fragile egos and tend to create a false self. And they can both be self righteous. And both are prone to rages and both a can give a feeling of walking on egg shells when interacting with them. And they both need to feel they are the best or superior. Also they both pull you into their dance. Also they can both leave others very emotionally confused and exhausted.

I myself struggle with ptsd and I can understand this challenge you are describing of wanting your emotions herd. Often the truth is that you are in a relationship with another person who is simply not able to listen and respect your feelings. Not being able to change that doesn’t mean you lack value as a person. Healthier self esteem isn’t about giving up your own emotional needs. It’s not about your lack to figure out how to get someone to respect your emotional needs either. That’s why a carefully written letter tends to fail when it comes to the other person deflecting. This is the dance step that other individual does.

That's a really cool way of looking at it! I've learned to do that in areas that she just "bothers" me in. When she rants on me, it hardly affects me at all anymore. When I see the behavior coming, I immediately go into myself and think positive thoughts abot myself. Not her. Myself. I let just enough into my ears to only hear the overall issue she has. Like your author is saying, I used to have to "calibrate" myself to her mood. I could do it and come out undamaged at the end, but I was exhausted. As I learned to deflect with positive thoughts about myself I grew stronger and it took less energy. Now I can feel rested immediately after she has run out of steam. Then address her core issue without taking on any of the mud she slung at me. I feel like I'm made of glass. She throws mud, I wipe it off, pick it up, examine it and present it to her with love.

With the sexuality stuff I feel like I'm made out of a sponge. I immediately obsorb her actions and take them on myself and feel dirty and worthless. I then repeat her actions over and over in my head and feel worse and worse about myself. When I am calm I can recognize that it's just my past abuse and PTSD talking but it takes so long to come down from it. I am just now starting to feel ok about myself after her last triggering behavior 12 days ago. It drains so much of my energy. Like your author says, I must talk about it to her. I think after I finish this book on self esteem I will be ready to tell her how her actions made me feel. I can't let her reactions to my assertions affect me. This is the cycle.

Our past marriage counselor mentioned that she thinks my wife suffers from body dysmorphia. I'm guessing her excessive need for sexual attention is a defense mechanism to this disorder. Not to excuse her in the least. If my old bad behavior is inexcusable, so is hers. Just because she may believe what she is doing harmless or thinks I'm trying to control her doesn't make it ok.

Can I ask you something @guy1111? What kind of mud is she slinging at you over and over again? And what does she "rant" on you about?

Reacting emotionally in a seemingly negative way to someone ranting on you and slinging mud is not just because you have a past with abuse, or because you deal with PTSD. It's a natural emotional reaction to feel and to have in response to someone slinging mud at you. I am curious about the nature of your relationship dynamic and I am wondering and have the question in my mind of how healthy it is for you overall?

No one should be slinging mud in a marriage and/or ranting on someone repeatedly. Adults talk to one another and work out and discuss their issues together, in a fair and adult way. Sure, people may argue and fight even, but then a couple should be able to come to some sort of conclusion, consensus, compromise and resolution about the issue. Slinging mud is not part of a healthy relationship dynamic.

I also do not like that she tells you you're "controlling" when it's her own issue at play for sexual attention and sexual affirmation that she needs from other men. That's deflecting the responsibility of her own behavior onto you, and it's turning her problem now into your problem to solve. And here you are, wracking your brain trying to solve it for yourself, and feeling badly about yourself too. Although you've built up resilience it seems to her words towards you, a loving and healthy relationship does not involve hurting the other person over and over again.

Just some additional thoughts for you.

I agree. I know I can't change her. If I can get to a point where I can just calmly and confidently state my needs, be specific and short and not allow her reactions to affect me, I will be in a better place. If she never changes and I finally throw in the towel I will at least know that I tried my best and never wavered on my needs. She will have to move on knowing exactly why I left her. In the next relationship I can be more upfront and gentle about my needs. Supposedly their are women out their that understand that men generally have very sensitive egos and are content with the admiration of one man and hold their beauty sacred and cultivated for him. Just as some men know most women generally need to feel secure in a relationship that they will be taken care of and fought for above all others and not abandoned.

I'm not saying I do this perfectly, but when I fail I admit it and try to improve myself.

Again, not here to talk specifics, but my point was to compare my growth in one area "being yelled at" vs. tolerating strange behavior with single men.

Again, let's say when she's mad she just hisses and walks away. For some people with anger issues that could cause full on fit of rage. Now I say to you, all she did was hiss. You need to get your anger under control.

Fortunately for me, tantrums and the like don't bother me at all. I know that it comes from a place of hurt. I can see past it and look at why they are upset.

Growth is excellent to take note of -- but repetitive tantrums are not healthy in a relationship, neither is ranting, neither is slinging mud. That's all I can really say.

Well perhaps her behavior is her way of controlling her discomfort about her body. Possibly in seeking attention confirming that she is physically attractive helps her feel she has a sense of control.

I have learned a great deal in both reading and therapy how different individuals can behave in dysfunctional ways in order to gain a sense of control. My sister claims to have “special powers” so nothing you say to her is important as she knows all. She tends to embrace delusional thinking.

When another person has disordered thinking nothing you say can do much to change that. This doesn’t mean you are a bad person or don’t deserve respect. It’s very possible if not probable that a disordered person will not be able to listen to how others feel. All feelings are often more about them. This has been consistent in discussing different scenarios I have encountered with my therapist.

Guy111, did you read about body dysphoric disorder? That’s a challenging disorder for a person to struggle with. It has mood challenges and anxiety and some ocd issues and a need for constant reassurance that a persons appearance is ok.

I find myself wishing you had shared that at the beginning as it explains a lot of the behaviors you are experiencing in your wife.

So many keep focusing on behaviors and often say the why doesn’t matter. Well, I disagree with that opinion as often the why actually is important.

This explains why your opinion of how she looks is not enough for her also why she constantly struggles with self esteem issues as well.

When all one focuses on is the behaviors it can actually lead down a path of blaming a person for something they can’t help. That’s something I most definitely witnessed someone face a lot of abuse from instead of being helped to work around their condition and even manage it better.

I had to learn how to understand individuals whose brains are wired differently than mine. My entire life has been constantly dealing with someone close to me that has adhd and dyslexia. There are behavior patterns in these challenges that can trigger me because of traumas I experienced that are connected to these challenges in others that were not understood.

It’s hard when other people’s behaviors were a source of such a threat to one’s sense of safety has resulted in suffering from ptsd. The desire to have your hurt feelings heard is very strong. Ptsd is a brain disorder where an individual a can suffer from intrusive overwhelming emotions where that individuals frontal executive frontal lobe does get overwhelmed. Often the damage created that results in someone suffering can be caused by a dysfunctional disordered individual or even from more than one individual.

When someone says “you can’t control the behaviors in others only your own behaviors”? Well that’s something most pretty much figure out when growing up with dysfunctional parents. It’s also something a person learns when they have a challenge and instead of being helped, they find ways to manage it themselves.

It’s very possible even probable that your wife developed this habit that bothers you as a way to help her manage the anxieties and depression and social inadequacies she constantly struggles with due to this disorder that most develop in their early teens.

This disorder is something inherited so you will need to pay attention to that possibly showing up in your children. This is experienced in both males and females. For that possibility alone learning about it is important.

As I mentioned I suffer from ptsd myself. I understand that need to have your feelings heard and the desire to have respect. I am 63 and learning about how disordered individuals affected me in ways I did not realize. I have learned my biggest weakness tends to stem from witnessing a lot of abuse and seeing the hurt it caused and not understanding why people choose to do things to hurt others. For myself I can get triggered when I see another person get hurt and no one is helping them. I had tried to figure out ways to help someone being hurt since I was very young. I wanted to help them feel better somehow. I wanted to help them not feel so hurt. I witnessed too much hurting in my home and I hated it.

Personally I feel that if all you focus on are behaviors and your own feelings than you may decide that the behaviors of others is more about you than you should determine and that if your not getting heard means you are not valued or worthy of respect. Well I watched a little boy endure both physical and psychological and emotional abuse because his adhd and dyslexic behaviors were considered he was just choosing to not listen and be bad.

Personally, I think all this need to be the star and superior and top person is all BS. IMHO even though human beings are so intelligent they can also be very stupid too. I sat across from individuals that are supposed to understand how to help someone struggling and confused decide importance and value when they have no experience what so ever in what another person achieved and lost. So this individual thinking they are superior believes some thing they know nothing about has no value simply because it has no value to them personally. It’s no wonder there is such a strong desire to want others to understand us better. It’s no wonder relationships are such a challenge.

Your wife needs to understand her disorder and how her ways of managing it can affect others. You also need to learn about her disorder so you don’t get so triggered by how she is managing it. It may trigger hurts in you that caused you hurt in the past yet your wife is not these toxic individuals. Your wife has a disorder and so do you.

I think you both need more than just a marriage counselor. Instead you both need a therapist that understands each of your disorders and can guide each of you towards better understanding each other.

What you have right now is not working.

Thank you. I agree.

Thank you! Your insights are amazing. You are giving me hope to keep working towards a healthy mind and a healthy relationship! Maybe urging her to get help for her own sake will at least distract her long enough for me to get some rest and healing. Ha ha.

Sorry about you and your sister. I know PTSD can make us feel like we have to take on the world's problems.

Maybe your wife never got help for this challenge. That in itself can end up being a burden and create ongoing problems in a relationship and not just for you but your children and even other relationships.

At least if she gets help she can learn her own part in your relationship challenges instead of walking away from you constantly hissing. In turn it takes some pressure off of you so you can keep working on your own challenges.

I know for myself that one of the ongoing challenges I have dealt with is how my husband has not gotten help for his bad adhd challenges and that has been a constant burden on me. I end up getting blamed for the problem all being me and the ptsd and that in itself can be very triggering. At times I end up being a scape goat when I really don’t deserve it.

My husband had a problem with alcohol as many with adhd develop to self medicate while he has been sober for 28 years he can still practice denials and blame me when he needs to understand how his adhd can be a problem so he doesn’t blame me when he has the problem. I do get tired of always having to understand everyone else and others don’t learn how their intrusive behaviors can do affect others. With his challenge there is a spectrum and he is high on the spectrum. It’s very hard to live with a person who is so loud and intrusive while struggling with ptsd. I can very much relate to your strong desire to have your feelings heard.

We often think that a person is abusing us or is bad and often it’s not as intentional as it appears. Adhd and dyslexia and autism and aspergers are nothing new. What is new is how we are gaining on understanding these challenges. Not everything always boils down to intentional disrespect and abuse.

My older sister is an entirely different challenge. She takes too much pleasure in hurting and in reading an article this morning about narcissistic and sociopathic behavior I do remember her observing me and trying to copy how I am empathetic and she tends to play the role yet her goal is control and getting whatever she can for herself. It’s as though she is the opposite of me and hates my ability to empathize just as the article describes. The degree of just how dark she can go is shocking and frightful. It’s so hard to wrap my mind around how a person enjoys causing hurt. That it brings that individual a sense of superiority is incredible.

I have described how terrible she can be and often unless a person witnesses it they don’t believe me. This kind of individual literally enjoys shattering another’s self esteem. I do suffer from ptsd but also narcissistic abuse syndrome and complicated grief disorder. Yup a real piece of work. I know a lot cause I have experienced a lot. I have spent a lot of time learning about a lot of whys behind behaviors.

I definitely feel it’s important to understand the whys behind behaviors. Even my own behaviors have reasons I have been slowly understanding.