Help with Toxic Extended Family

Hello everyone. I’m looking for some guidance in how to help me and my family deal with a toxic situation involving my half-sister and her family. We have already cut off all ties with them, but we have overlapping social circles and they have done their level best to destroy our reputations. Short of moving away from the area (which is absolutely on the table if interest rates ever come back down), we cannot completely rid ourselves of them and their influence. I suppose for everyone to understand, I need to give some background. I’ll try to summarize as best as I can, but you might want to buckle up because this is quite the wild ride. I’ll try to condense it as much as possible, but this is a situation that has been going on for over a year now, so there’s a lot to unpack.

My wife and I have been married for 23 years and my half-sister and her husband have been married for 20. When they got married, we lived 2000 miles away so we honestly weren’t around them very much. In 2016, we moved to the same town they lived in because I needed a different climate. Up to this point, our interactions with my brother-in-law were limited, but usually less than positive. He has repeatedly, over the last 20 years, shown that he is unconcerned with how his behavior and actions affect others. I can point to many occasions during visits where he would suddenly change plans without telling us, leaving us wondering what was going on and where they went. He would make snotty comments to me or my wife or to others about us. His behavior never sat well with us, but for the sake of keeping peace we overlooked it every time. My wife and daughter have always found him “unsettling” and I’ve never been comfortable with him either.

This situation got ugly last summer when my wife and I approached them about how they were treating the son of a friend of ours. They went nuclear because we dared to say anything about their behavior. They spewed hatred and venom at me for days. Perhaps there may have been a better way to discuss this with them, but we did the best we could at the time.

What I didn’t realize at the time was that their daughters were bullying mine. This caused them to take that bullying to the next level. They stopped speaking to all of us, even to the point of pretending we didn’t even exist if we tried to interact with them. They took friends away from my daughter. I watched them literally interrupt a conversation she was having with someone to pull that girl away from her. They have yelled at my daughter and lied to her and about her. They made her want to cut herself. Fortunately, she’s been very open with us about how she’s feeling and she will soon be seeing a therapist to help deal with the trauma of it all.

I have met with my brother-in-law two more times over the last year to try to resolve this. I have even brought “neutral” parties to mediate and try to help make peace. Each time, he has made some very heinous, false accusations against me, which I’ll get into in a moment. During this time, they have gone around to the friends in our social circle and influenced them to the point that these people will barely speak with us anymore. I have lost two of my best friends over this, likely due to these accusations. What they have told people about me is by far the worst thing anyone has ever done to me. So, here’s the backstory:

For a few years now, we have been helping my daughter’s friend, Katie (name changed). Katie lives with her mother and grandmother. Her father has been in and out of prison her entire life (or in rehab). When he is around, he is emotionally abusive. Over time, I have come to love this kid like she were my own. We have supported her materially and emotionally. We have taken her on several family vacations and anytime she needed something that her mother couldn’t afford, we paid for it. I think of her as my adopted "daughter". She also happens to be friends with my nieces. Last fall, after months of a stalemate, my sister and her husband told Katie’s mother (whom I will call Linda) that the reason we were helping them out so much was because I was after Katie. Meanwhile, my nieces were telling Katie the same thing.

I need to point out that this girl has never had anyone take care of her. She has no relationship with her father, nor does she want one. She once told her mother that she has no idea what a father-daughter relationship should be like. But despite that, she was starting to see me as a dad. She trusted me and would ask me for advice on things from time to time. These are things she has never done with a male figure in her life. So, then these people come along and basically tells her that the first man in her life who has ever shown that he truly cared about her was only doing it because he wanted to get in her pants. I shouldn’t have to say this, but I have never wanted anything of the sort. She’s a child, and one I think of as my own. Now, you can imagine what that did to her. It’s bad enough that they said this about me, but they undermined her emotional wellbeing for their own ends. Fortunately, she has a great therapist who has been helping her, but it should never have come to this.

They provided no evidence for this accusation, but they continued to push this on Linda for some time. Once they finally had her questioning my motives, they tried to get her to report me to the authorities. The things is, she wouldn’t do it. So then they did. Of course, this meant I got hauled into an investigation and raked over the coals. Fortunately, after speaking with me and Linda (separately of course), the investigation determined that I had done nothing wrong. So that was a weight off of my shoulders. Since that time, Linda and I have worked things out since she realized that it was all a setup. Katie unfortunately is still not wanting to be around me, probably because she’s still hanging out with my nieces.

But that still wasn’t good enough for them. They have told many of our friends that I was grooming a 16 year-old girl, causing most of them to no longer speak to us. We have had to find an entirely new circle of friends who don’t know them and haven’t been influenced by them.

Over the last year, I have desperately tried to understand why they would do this. I have watched this man lie to my face in the most despicable ways possible. I have seen them manipulate so many people. They used Linda and Katie as pawns in their sick little game to ruin me. He has lied and said “We never said anything to Linda” only for my sister to message me later and admit that they did. But of course, she refused to take any responsibility for it. But most of all, they abused my daughter and manipulated my other “daughter” into thinking I was a child predator.

So I guess what I’m looking for from this community is some help understanding why, why would my own family do this to me? I’ve been doing a lot of research lately on the Dark Triad and I think there may be something there, but my psychology degree comes from a Cracker Jack box, so I’ll defer to people with more experience. The other thing I want is to get my kid back. I know that will take time and there’s nothing I can do to get her away from their influence. I guess I just want some reassurance that perhaps, someday she will realize how they have used her and then maybe we can start over. We will probably never have what we had before, but I can’t quite give up on her yet.

Does all of that make sense? I’m sorry it’s so long, but honestly I could write an entire paper on this situation.

Thank you in advance for listening.

Earendil

Hi @Earendil welcome to MSF. I am sorry you are dealing with people that are spreading rumors about you. What to do about that may depend on whether you want to work things out with a therapist or seek legal counsel and see if there are any avenues which could protect your family from apparently abusive behavior.

We are peers here so explaining other's actions is beyond what we can do. We empathize and hope you find support in the community. @CANDC

Thank you CANDC. I spent 8 months with a therapist, and it was very helpful for me. My relationship with my family has always been strained and she helped me realize that I became who I am today despite them. It was, for lack of a better word, transformative to figure out that not only do I not need them, but I have never needed them. The unfortunate thing is that I let them back into my life after so many years away from them.

My sister and I never got along as kids, but I thought that maybe we had put that behind us. I don't know if we actually did for a while or if I simply stayed on her good side. I've dealt with narcissists before in my wife's family and with co-workers/bosses. But this behavior is just plain evil, almost cartoonishly so. I just can't wrap my mind around the idea that all four of them coordinated to slander me like this.

The thing is, I know they aren't finished with me. So, I feel like I'm going to spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder, waiting for their next attack.

Wow, that's a mess. I'm so sorry for all that you have gone through, just shaking my head over here.

I don't have much time at the moment, but would point you to YouTube and when narcissists slander you. That may not be precisely what you're dealing with, but it would probably feel familiar enough to give you some ideas. Dr. Ramani is always a good place to start. Maybe others will have other ideas.

I've dealt with people similar to what you've described, and the hardest thing for me to ever wrap my head around, was that they enjoyed it to the degree they did, even when a normal person would not. Like when you confronted the BIL, you were probably thinking you were going to have an adult conversation and get on the same page with him. I did that for years before coming to understand that they intentionally do not want to be on the same page because it's how they maintain control. They don't care how dirty or damaged they become, so long as they feel like they are in the control position.

There's a book titled "Controlling People" that explains this sick dynamic very well. The more you fight it, the more they like it, the worse it gets. The only thing that seems to work is to take a detached, high ground stance and keep it at all costs. What that does is stop giving them the feedback that they crave and enjoy. They're like dogs with squeaky toys- they chew and chomp, and it makes noise and gives them the feedback they like. It's not easy, especially with that dynamic you have going on.

You're in a tough place. My heart goes out to you.

Thank you, I appreciate that. I've watched several of Dr. Ramani's videos, she's fantastic. And you're right, I did expect to have an adult conversation with my BIL, at least the first time. The second time went about how I expected, the only difference was that the "neutral" party I thought was there to help wasn't as neutral as I had hoped.

I'll check out that book, it seems like a good resource. I don't really want to repair our relationship, but it will be helpful to know how to recognize this behavior in the future. I would love to send a copy to Katie, but that's probably too passive-aggressive. She is being completely controlled by them, down to them choosing who her friends are. They are classic "mean girls". I always thought the movie was a caricature, but I've come to realize that it's very, very real.

About that neutral third party... My experience has largely become that when someone is habitually manipulative, they are very good at roping those neutral third parties into their circles. They are masters of manipulation, and many have been doing it without thought since they were young children. For some of them, it can be as natural as breathing.

A story I tell too often on these boards (but it's a good and egregious example) was accompanying DH to his counseling session, where he put on a sad and harried demeanor and the counselor decided that the abuse, he admitted to committing, was in fact my fault for not having used better boundaries in that moment. Seriously... I don't tell this for sympathy, it's just a ridiculous example of manipulation, and cluelessness, even on the part of someone who should be a bit more objective. So those manipulative people really do know how to stack things in their favor.

That book isn't about repairing relationships, it's about what drives people to behave that way, why people like you and I aren't aware, and how best to deal with them. It helps us understand them, but ultimately, it's about us and what we need to do for ourselves to be safe and healthy.

Dr. Les Carter is also on YouTube and he has a lot of good videos about just detaching and not giving energy to people like that. There's a lot of power in detachment and non reaction. You're in a really tough spot with the overlapping circles, about all you can do is disengage from them and live to your own high standards, and make sure you have and use VERY strong boundaries.

That is so sad about Katie. Both for her, and for you. That is just a cruel, nasty thing that they did. As sad as it is, the only way you come out looking good is by doing nothing, right? So sad. Maybe someday it will turn around for the better. Again. I'm so sorry that this happened to you.

I've come to realize that he started swaying people against me long before this started, and he is by far the most manipulative person I have ever known. I thought my FIL was good at it, but he had nothing on this guy. You're right, it is as natural as breathing to him, as is lying. You know how most people have a tell when they lie? Not this guy. He lies like you and I would talk about the weather.

I'm sorry about your experience with your DH (I know you didn't tell it for sympathy, but I'm an empath so I can't help it). A friend of ours went through something very similar with her ex.

I'm glad to hear the book is not about repairing relationships. I guess I got confused by one of the lines in the Amazon description. It talked about forging a genuine connection and I thought that meant repairing the relationship. There's no going back and I won't let people like that around me or my family. So thank you for clarifying.

I'll check out Dr. Carter's videos, thanks. I'm trying to let go of the bitterness, and it's starting to work. But I still have a ways to go. Maybe these videos will help.

And thank you for being concerned for Katie. Yes, it sucks that I have lost her, but my biggest concern has always been how it has affected her. Nothing about our relationship was ever about me, it was always about giving her a better life and making sure she had the things she needed to succeed. I know I need to let her go and I'll have to hope that she will be ok. I just don't want her to turn into them. She's an amazing person and she has so much potential for good things and I would hate to see them drag her down into becoming a mean girl like them. She's been through so much and yet she's always smiling and she's always kind. If anyone has reason to be bitter for her lot in life, it's her. And I know that she is to an extent, but she never takes it out on other people. I've seen too many kids in her position become sullen and withdrawn, but she's not.

Again, thank you for all the advice. I really appreciate it.

Well, there may be some stuff in the book about correcting relationships with a controlling person, but I never looked for that message. For me, it's been largely about understanding, coming to terms, and managing what's in front of me.

You have a lot going on there, lots to feel unhappy or unsettled about. It can take a while to process that stuff and come to terms with it to eventually get to a place where you feel at peace with yourself.

Yeah, I know those people you are talking about. It's scary how some people have no moral compass. They are self serving and don't care who they destroy in the process. Accepting this can be hard, but when it's a family member, it's especially hard to come to terms with.

Your concern for Katie is very kind, and so sad that they perverted it as they did. Sometimes this stuff is just out of our control and there isn't much we can do. And it doubly stinks to accept that, because in a sense, they did win. Truth and what's right didn't fully prevail. Maybe someday the truth will come out, maybe it won't, but it sucks to be in a place where you have to concede that you didn't do anything wrong, but are the one left holding the bag. Hopefully Katie will be okay. At least you recognize it's beyond your control at this point.

One piece of advice that I found particularly helpful was to learn to respond rather than react. You may already have this mastered, but manipulators, particularly those close to us, know how to push our buttons and get that reaction out of us. We can't give them that. Sometimes conversations with my dh are super weird, because he's getting amped up and trying to drag me into his drama. No reactions - that's what they want. They may even provoke reactions in us in order to get us to feel the things they can't allow themselves. They're mad, but they deal with it by making someone else mad, and then tsk tsk them for getting upset. Instead, respond with unemotional answers, like you would with a complete stranger who said something odd to you. If you don't already do this, it can take time to learn how to do it effectively. It can feel flat and awkward at times, but it works. Not just with the toxic people, but also with friends in common who may be overstepping good boundaries.

Anyhow, another hug for you. It's a lot to figure out. You won't do it overnight, but you sound like you have a good head on your shoulders, so you will get there.

He definitely pushes my buttons, that's for sure. So yeah, learning to respond rather than react is good advice, thank you. Fortunately, I won't really be around him much going forward. I'll see if the library has that book, otherwise I may end up buying it.

One thing comes to mind. As I mentioned earlier, I'm an empath. Actually, a pretty strong one at that. I have been wondering if the reason I've never felt right around him is because he doesn't express (or perhaps even feel) emotions like a normal person. To me, he's a giant void. Kind of like how you look at a shark's eyes and you see it has no soul. He's just an empty, vacuous husk of a man. Like you said, he has no moral compass and doesn't care who he destroys to get his way. It's all very Machiavellian.

Hello!
Only to say hi and tell you that reading your thread left me with NO WORDS.
It’s incredible how some people may be so evil. With you, with your own daughter.

I don’t know if I would have survive these horrible experiences.

I wish you, your daughter and your wife get some peace and you find helpful these audios with Dr. Ramani and the other doctor Amor suggested.

Lots of strength to you and family.

The description you give is somewhat similar to the way many people describe interactions with narcissists and psychopaths. I, too, fall into being an empath, and there tends to be a bit of a dynamic between those two personality types (narcissists and empaths). You can search around YouTube, and you'll probably find a few videos about that. We have tendencies for tuning in and potentially attempting to right situations, that aren't always good, especially when it comes to disordered people.

Some people say that being an empath is their superpower- and at times the ability does look a little supernatural to others, but to me, it's my weakness/detriment. It's the part of my kid self that can tune into the most bizarre aspects of human behavior, understand it, and try to prepare for disaster or fix a situation before what I know will happen, happens. Not sure if that makes sense or not. It doesn't serve me well in these types of situations. It's become better for me to learn to step back and take things from more of a distance- more treating it at face value, even if I sense something bigger beneath the surface. Gosh, I hope that makes sense.

Don't misunderstand, it can be a good thing, but theres a potential downside to it too.

But yeah, if your an empath, you may be a little more instinctively aware of what he's missing. You may see aspects of him that others can't.

Btw, the boards seem a little slower than usual IMO, so don't get discouraged if responses are a little slow.

I've long suspected he's a narcissist sociopath, but lately I've been considering the possibility that he might be more Machiavellian. All of this with Linda and Katie took careful planning and patience, which is more of a Machiavellian trait. I wouldn't describe him as impulsive or grandiose. He's definitely haughty and arrogant, so there's no doubt he has narcissistic tendencies. He also has absolutely no empathy for anyone, so there's the psychopath/sociopath. I think the (disturbing) difference is that he's fully aware of how he is, so it's not a disorder he can't control or fix. He means to be this way. And he's getting worse. I think his daughters have learned those traits from him. I'm not sure where my sister falls in this. Are they all Machiavellian? Do they all have ASPD? Are some one way and the rest another? I have no idea and will probably never know. In the end, I have to be ok with that. Fortunately, as I've said, we are distancing ourselves from them. Unfortunately, I have a compulsive need to understand why people behave the way they do. lol

And I totally get you about the empathy. It's a blessing and a curse. On the one hand, it is very helpful when someone I know is having a hard time with something, because not only do I feel for them, I feel with them. That gives me a better "feeling" for how to help and comfort them. On the other hand, when someone is angry with me (i.e. my wife), suddenly I'm angry too and I have no idea why. It has caused more than one argument in our marriage over the years. This is a recent revelation for me, so I'm hoping that the next time she's mad at me and I'm starting to feel that anger, I'll recognize it and not reciprocate.

You explained that well

It's possible your sister is more of an enabler type. For a lot of spouses, it's a slow slide and you don't even realize you're in it until you're up to your neck.

I don't know if you'd get some value from this particular book, but one of the best books I've read in recent times is about passive aggressive behaviors. It's titled "The Angry Smile" and the people who wrote it pioneered a lot of the research on the subject. It's interesting and scary too. They contend that everyone knows what passive aggression is, but because everything always appears unintentional or even well meaning (plausible deniability) the psychology community generally can't recognize it. It's how people like this get away with the things they do. Your post made me think of it, because they said that in their research, they were very surprised to learn that most of the people who were passive aggressive were not only fully aware of what they were doing, but enjoyed it- the power and control it gave them.

If you think you can relate to passive aggressive agendas, I highly recommend the book. I'd spent a couple of years trying to understand the subject, and that book gave such a fantastic understanding that I no longer research it. It helped me recognize it, not doubt my perceptions, and then to understand how to deal with it.

That whole thing about planning though... I spent years concerned that the disordered people I deal with were some kinds of masterminds, then at a point realized they aren't. They generally aren't smart or clever, what they are is chaotic. When a good person does something intentionally, they're careful and meticulous. A disordered person doesn't have to be; carelessness and irrational behavior results in more chaos. They aren't like someone carefully carving a sculpture into their vision, they're more like a child flinging toys around in a tantrum. No matter how it ends, they'll have caused plenty of disruption and chaos, you know? JMHO though. That's not to say that some aren't masterminds, just that most are sloppy and still get the results they want. But as you know, it still makes them potentially dangerous

I hadn't considered that. Then again, she's always had this "If you cross me I'll destroy you" mentality, even when we were kids.

Thanks for all the book recommendations! I'll definitely check some out. A friend of mine recommended "The Status Game" a while ago. I haven't gotten very far with it (non-fiction is not my jam), but I'll take a look at your recommendations after I've finished that one.