My brother ordered me out of his hospital room.

Oh my, that sounds like a nasty shock to find out about this therapist’s untimely demise. It sounds like this lady made a positive impression on you?

I can tell you that I don’t believe there’s a logic to these things or that you are any less worthy because she achieved these things. But what I think isn’t important.

What do you think she would say to you now if she was able to?

I believe she would have encouraging things to say to me. I started seeing her when I was 29 y.o. I continued seeing her on and off into my 40s. I had tremendous respect for her.
We bumped into each other at Costco some years back. We had a short, pleasant chat and went on our separate ways. She looked and sounded very well. I had always found her to be a very caring, smart and sensible person. And she seemed a fit person who took care of herself. I saw her as somewhat of a role model. I guess I spent recent years thinking that, if I ever wanted to resume therapy, she was there, and I could always call for an appointment. Sometimes there's a bit of comfort in just knowing someone is around. Well, I was wrong in assuming that. I discover now that she has been deceased for some years. It was an untimely passing, and the illness was a terrible one. It brings tears to my eyes thinking now of her fate. I feel blessed to have known her. She was a good person. I'm awfully sorry that she didn't get to have a nice long life, with years of enjoying grandchildren, etc. It seems cruel and unfair. I just hope she was well loved, which I rather trust that she was. The obituary gave that impression.

During my working years, I worked in some venues where my job put me side by side with professional clinical counselors. I remember a very few that I had high regard for. Most were unimpressive. And some were, IMO, just nut-jobs themselves. Just hearing the way they talked about each other was appalling. So it's not only me saying that. I witnessed some extremes of unprofessionalism that were jaw dropping. That's part of why I don't have a lot of trust in the psycho-therapeutic professions. I've seen these folk up close and personal in the conference rooms where they let their guard down. In recent decades we've learned that not all police and priests are what we used to believe they were, back when society was more naiive about what goes on. Well, don't think it's any different with doctors and counselors. Some are gems, but there's a lot of mediocrity out there . . . and that's putting it nicely.

I didn't mean to get off on a tangent. Back to my issues - I do need help, but what would help me probably doesn't exist. I base that on years in the past when I left no stone unturned, exploring what was available by way of professional treatment. Ideally, I think chronic depressives might benefit from a sodality, like Alcoholics Anonymous, where there's fellowship of peers. BDSA (Bipolar Depression Support Alliance) is about as close to that as we have, but it's much more oriented toward desseminating good information, rather than organizing peer support. Its meetings draw lots of people, besides those with actual diagnoses. Some people are there because of a family member with depression.

It's great that there are non-depressed people who want to be supportive of others with depression. But I'll go back to the AA analogy: No one understands alcoholism like an alcoholic. That organization has thrived because members whom doctors and hospitals had failed to help found that they could be helped by peers working a program together. The "medical model" only gets you so far. To conceptualize alcoholism or chronic depression as a disease has its usefulness. But that is, to some extent, metaphorical, IMHO. I happen to believe that a chronic depressive, like an alcoholic, basically has an approach to life that is not working for them, but which they've been unable to alter. No set of drugs is going to accomplish that alteration. Neither is meeting weekly for a 45 minute session with the greatest therapist in the world. I did that stuff to death. I came to feel I'ld exhausted what there was to be got out of that for myself.

I know what I have to do. I just have to do it. I know what thwarts me. By the age of 8, I had significant social phobia. I was becoming seriously socially avoidant. It didn't distress me all that much because I had a bunch of siblings at home to keep me company. Also, there was extended family nearby. Socially avoidant children are often perfectly at ease amongst close family members. So I didn't lack for companionship. I got loads of attention from my parents. Teachers treated me very well. Life was good. As I got older, I was very content to spend a lot of time alone because I loved to read. From age 16, I always had a job because that was an expectation in our family. Everyone had to work. So I was a busy little bee. After age 17, I even started dating. Life rolled on. Eventually I was in a stable relationship that lasted a long time. He and I moved far from our place of origin. Now he has passed away, and here I am living all alone thousands of miles away from all my relatives. I thought it was nice when my brother decided to move out to where I live. But he's an alcoholic who can't get along with anyone. I thought he and I would get along, but that was a vain hope on my part. I had thought he just needed someone to support him in his efforts at recovery, and I was eager to do just that. That went along great for awhile, until it didn't. He ended up in jail (repeatedly) for disorderly conduct fueled by drinking. His attorney told me I was wasting my energies trying to help him. The lawyer said, "Your brother cares about nobody, including you. He's going to be found dead in the street some day. You ought to just move on." So that brings me full circle back to how I started this thread. He had vanished from my life, until the hospital called.

So my hope of having my brother come by for Christmas dinner went out the window. I spend it alone, which made me sad. Since leaving his room at the hospital, I've been more depressed than I had already been. Nobody else in my family called me on Christmas either. I'm no longer a kid, and the time for depending on siblings to be my best friends is over. I have to make other connections. I know that. I'm capable of doing that. It just doesn't come natural to me. It just seems hard, and nothing I think of doing really seems too interesting. I also know that depression makes everything seem uninteresting. Things don't become interesting, until after you invest some effort. Competent therapists tell that to every depressed person. I probably have all the insight I need. I just never before have been this totally alone, where I don't really matter to anyone. I probably can change that, if I just make the effort. It's hard, in the midst of depression, to summon up effort. Then again, I've done hard things in my life before . . . even when depressed. No need to despair yet.

Just an aside....when I was in Calif & searching for good mental health help, the mental hospitals did suggest Emotions Anonomus (EA) for depression issues. There were none around where I lived & go figure they told those of us with Anorexia to go to Overeaters Anonomous. Ah well, like you, I only found one awesome Psychologist who did help me back into a functional & healed life & I am beyond grateful to her. The rest were totally useless

@eskielover - I'm glad you found recovery. Sometimes the right support comes along when its needed. I think there is great variation especially in the level of competence among psychologists and other providers. I saw a psychologist at one community clinic. He told me he was opposed to the "medicalization of problems of living." That resonated with me. Then he asked me if I had considered that I might have Asperger's. I thought that was barking up a wrong tree. Around that same time one psychiatrist told me he had suddenly decided I was bipolar. A few years later, another pdoc at a program I was in said she suspected I was an alcoholic in denial. My peers in that day program told me they believed me that I wasn't. They said that doctor seemed to have gotten annoyed with me. What diagnosis you get can depend upon how a professional reacts to you emotionally. For me to get such different diagnoses convinced me that professionals in mental health really are not all that scientific. The pdoc who thought I was alcoholic, which I wasn't, later decided I had Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Peers told me I came across as opinionated, which they said was rubbing this doctor the wrong way. I later attended a support group moderated by a therapist who said that, if a provider judges a client to have a personality disorder, it just means that provider dislikes the client. The lack of consistency makes me think it's a big old guessing game. Sometimes, I'ld go further and say a lot of what goes on in the psych world is a farce.

What a shame. They are just randomly saying things without proper diagnostic procedures. How disturbing.

I always thought that to get a proper medical diagnosis there’s a ton of procedures need to be followed, judging by my husband’s experience and seeing it professionally. Reading on this forum changed my perspective that only some people are lucky to receive a proper diagnosis based on data/observations/family’s surveys etc Other people are just told whatever is on psychiatrist’s mind that day. It’s insane to say the least.

Come think of it I do have some examples of pdocs and social workers just saying dumb stuff and randomly spewing diagnoses.

“Person is depressed and needs anti depressants”. “Why?” “They were sitting there crying.” “What??? They were watching very sad movie when you walked by. “ “oh I thought they are crying because they have depression” Big face palm

No faith here in either the medical or mental health profession. Finding a good one who doesn't just guess or throw meds at you hoping they will "do something" then throw mor meds at you to counter the side effects they caused is like finding a needle in a haystack. I am thankful I did find the wonderful T I found in a community care place.....all of us in the DBT group & who had her privately are so thankful for her. We worked hard under her guidance but we we all came out so much better than when we started & I think she was surprised at how much I healed as my original T there who retired said she never thought she could break through my wall.

For me it was like professors at the Univ. Some I really connected with & learned from & was inspired to take the course work farther than what was taught & some didn't inspire at all & some were just useless & I took the class over with a better prof. Lol....some I disagreed with so much I just wanted to argue with them. Medical & mental health fields are just like that

Here's how petty some professionals can be: In this day program I went to, we had daily classes on the brain and on how psych disorders tend to play out. I would challenge some of the ideas presented. My peers in the program told me that I was irritating the staff. They said that this was not a college classroom and that I needed to pipe down. They advised, "Just take what you can use and leave the rest." Their feedback opened my eyes to how I was actually being childish by trying to engage in debates in a venue where that was not real appropriate. Anyway, the pdoc - who was starting to resent me - tagged me as being an alcoholic narcissist. She mandated that I be breathalyzed every morning. I was the only one in the program being made to do that.

On a break, my peers took me aside. They said that some of them were in the program trying to regain custody of their kids, which they had lost due to substance abuse. None of them were being tox-screened or breathalyzed. Only me. They said I was the only one being tested daily because I ticked off the doctor. Most of them did not have jobs. I was going to this program, which was time consuming at 5 days per week, plus trying to work as many shifts as I could squeeze in, which the staff knew. I hardly had room in my schedule to be binge drinking, which should have been obvious. It was obvious to my peers. The person who sat next to me confided that she was an alcoholic, but said she would never disclose that to staff in this program because she was there to address abuse she endured during childhood. The peers told me I had to be a lot more careful about what I shared with staff. I replied that I thought we were supposed to spill our guts and put everything on the table. They said I had a lot to learn about how things work.

I did learn important insights in this program, but not from the pdoc or therapists. It was my peers who wised me up to stuff. They even got me to see where I was being annoying and needed to learn how to shut up. They did that in a way that was charitable, which I think was quite amazing on their part. It actually made me want to change. Fellow psych consumers can be more sensitive and perceptive than professionals, whose egos often drive how they react to a patient.

that sounds like good group therapy even though thats not how it was set up. Like GOOD peer pressure.

Dropping in with a for a rose

Yes, good peer pressure is exactly how it was. As a loner child, I was under-socialized. Kids get feedback from other kids that shapes how they interact. With my siblings, I could be dominant, as eldest children often are. Stuck in my room with my books and music, I was under-experienced in terms of interpersonal skills. Sitting with a therapist will not fix that. Therapists seen privately are often loath to hurt the feelings of a client, and they are ever so careful to listen and hear all one wishes to say. Being told to pipe down by multiple peers did me a world of good. All that reading and solitary thinking had me overly preoccupied with my own thoughts. It was high time I got told that not everyone is dying to hear what goes on inside my head. I can see where my manner could come across as narcissistic, but labeling me as having NPD was a mean spirited stretch. Hearing my peers take on how I was expressing myself woke me up to what I needed to alter. I did alter how I participated in the group. Soon my peers spoke up to the staff that they saw me making progress in my attitude and felt I deserved of a pat on the back. I was deeply touched by their understanding and kind supportiveness. The daily breathalyzing was halted.

Next, my job made me miss two days of the program. Staff saw that as reason to kick me out of the program. They were quite pleased to see the last of me. I was disapointed, but I probably had gotten what I most needed, thanks to the group wisdom and compassion of my peers. When discharging me, the doctor said she would arrange for me to get continued med management thru the outpatient clinic. A few days later, I called to see if that had been arranged. I was told very tersely that that would not be arranged and not to call them again. Technically, that could be deemed "patient abandonment", which is unethical. I made my own arrangement to get appropriate follow-up and moved on.

Yesterday was a pretty decent day. I got some things done, including making a nice pot of spagetti sauce.

Yesterday happened to be my birthday. One of my sisters recognized my birthday by sending a "GIF" to my phone - it was a small graphic saying Happy Birthday. No phone call. No text message. Just the GIF. She never called me on Christmas. After New Years Day, she sent a GIF saying Happy New Year. I would say those were the most minimal gestures she could come up with. At best, I could chalk these missives up to laziness, but I don't believe it's that. In reality, I think firing off a small, nondescript GIF is a way of launching a passive-aggressive insult. Throwing me a crumb like that feels to me like an expression of contempt. I texted back, yesterday, that she could stick the GIFs where the sun don't shine. This business of having minimum contact with me has gone on for almost two years, even when I was terribly ill in the hospital a year and a half ago. We had no falling out that might account for this.

Today I feel disturbed that I responded as I did. I always tend to fault myself. Now I'll likely be upset for days. I wracked my brain this morning, feeling remorseful and thinking of alternative responses that might
have been more diplomatic. But what's done is done. This sister has a history of periodically getting some bee in her bonnet, leading to her not speaking to me for months or even a year at a time . . . and then getting over it, acting like everything was fine. I've endured this bouncing between hot and cold for years. Yesterday, it just became too much for too long.

In the past, when her bad mood toward me would improve, she'ld call me up half-drunk, saying, "I love you." and inviting me to leave where I live, return back East and move in with her. I tend to think there is really something wrong with her that she can't help. I always feel sorry for her. I tend to feel her childhood was not as good as mine. As the eldest, I mostly had a stay-at-home mother till I was 12. She was much younger when my mother went to work. I remember her eating cereal in the kitchen all alone before school at a young age, not getting the level of attention and care that I had got. Hot biscuits and cinnamon buns weren't baked for her at breakfast, as they had been for me.

I try hard to understand my siblings. Each child in a family occupies a different niche. Some niches are better than others. There was emotional stress in our home growing up. I think my brother and this sister suffered more than from it than I did. The best I've been able to come up with is that these two siblings have something like Borderline Personality Disorder. They are so unstable. They ricochet between love and animosity to an extent that I can't make sense of. I've always felt I owed them something to try and make up for how they might have gotten short-changed early in life. I tried hard. They seem to remember nothing. It's like they've spit on my years of effort. That's hard for me to adjust to.

Like I said somewhere above, I need to be less focused on far-away siblings and focus instead on building connections here where I am now. When my boyfriend was alive, it didn't matter who else did or didn't care about me. Now it does matter. They were all I had left. I would rather have died than be rejected like this.

Another sibling did send me a nice gift yesterday. She's quite well to do and sends expensive gifts. No phone call. This other sister has told me she dislikes talking on the phone, so I don't bother her.

I guess time heals all, so, eventually, things won't seem so bad. I just have to get from here to there. For now, there's no one in my corner. Maybe I should get a dog.

My pharmacy told me I need to see my primary provider for renewal of prescriptions. When I called the clinic for an appointment, I was told that the P.A. who I've gone to for years has dropped me as a patient and that I've been assigned to a new PCP. It's normal to get a letter when that happens, but my former PCP didn't bother. I can't seem to stop finding things to cry and cry about. I wish I actually was an alcoholic, so I could drink myself into a stupor and escape everything that feels hurtful. I need a break.

Somehow I missed this post till now. Thank you, @felineangel. Your post has made me smile.


Long ago I figured out that it's not smart to come across as "needy." People IRL have a fear of the "needy," and I understand there's justification for that fear. It's the fear that a needy person might become a pain in the @$$. People worry about reinforcing dependent tendencies, whereby a needy person just doesn't do enough to help themself, but incessantly wants to be comforted by someone else. Part of being an adult means developing the ability to self-soothe. Therein lies the derivation of stigma. Complaining of feeling depressed is very apt to be mistaken for immature neediness. Sometimes it is that. Such a person can suck the life out of you. I've known such persons. The phone calls go from being one hour long to being two hours long to being three hours long. Such persons glom on and don't want to let go. No one wants to encourage that.

I understand that people legitimately fear being excessively imposed upon. It's not always possible to distinguish whether someone is overwhelmed by serious depression or is greedily angling for extra helpings of attention to fill their inner void. In my experience, people are pretty quick to assume the latter. Even mental health professionals will do that. I call it the Ceasar Milan school of psychotherapy. Milan tells his clients to never give affection to a dog who's shivering in fear, as that will reward the dog for being fearful and encourage sustained fearfulness. I once met with a therapist who was provided to me by the state Division of Vocational Rehab to help me learn to manage my anxiety in the workplace. I called her a few times when I experienced severe anxiety at work. Each time, she declined to speak with me for more than a few moments, saying, "Talking about your fears will only cause your anxiety to escalate." I ended up losing the job. I told DVR that I wouldn't have further need for the therapist. I eventually found a lower stress job and was successful at it for 4 years.

Some people - like that therapist - seem to believe that withholding warmth from a depressed person will encourage them to snap out of it sooner. This is the stigma - the prejudice that tends to suspect that the depressed person is not authentically in need, but just wants to be clingy.

Well, I've been clinging to my digital device too long, and now I'm hungry. Time to taste the spagetti sauce I made yesterday. I've felt unable to eat for many hours. Writing my post helped me.

Thanks for writing this Rose, glad it helps, it helped me too, and probably others.

As I’ve said many times before, you have much to give.

There's a saying ''blood is thicker than water'' There's also a saying ''blood doesn't necessarily mean family''

Sometimes we think family members will automatically care for us. That you were thinking of your sisters and brothers own circumstances growing up shows that you are an empathetic person. Empaths often get over looked, or sensed as too needy.

I think you're figuring this out on your own. You need connections close to you. It doesn't mean completely give up on your siblings, although in a way I feel you aren't getting what you want, so dont spend as much time hoping that you'll get that encouragement or rememberance from them.

People that aren't truly depressed will never understand it. I have a sister that has worked for the govt and made advertisements about the need for mental health saftey and awareness. She's not been helpful in any way when it comes to mental health matters I noticed long ago. She yelled at me once many years ago ''Just snap out of it! I'm tired of hearing about this. You have everything! Dont call before 8 am.'' etc. I called at 7;58 the morning before that text. I kinda laugh about it now. She's also texted lengthy responses sounding like she's a lawyer.

I now just say everything is good. I shut up and listen. I realize that is all the interest she ever had, was for me to say yes I'm fine, everything is good and to listen to her troubles.

My brother suddenly just stopped talking to both of us after my dads death. I'm thinking he wasn't happy with not getting the farm, as well as not being compensated through my dad's own bank account estate. He could have applied for the govt assistance for compassionate care leave but he told my sister ''I don't want a govt handout!''. I went to the bother of finding my dads hospice care doctor who had prescribed his final medications for end of life care at home. This just happened to have been my doctor many years ago. Very polite on the phone. Gave me his email and I sent it to my brother. That wasn't good enough, he still wont talk. It will soon be 3 yrs now.

Sometimes there's nothing we can do to mend ties with family. And maybe, just maybe, it's for the best for our own mental health. I had also gone through the ''well, let me consider what it was like in their shoes growing up'' It doesn't make a difference at our ages, they are who they are and I am who I am.

I hope there's one good thing about the change of your PCP. For me I just ended up getting another doc one day not knowing my doc split his clients with another doc in the office. No notice either. But she ended up actually giving a shyte about my medical health issues that my doc for 10 yrs ignored. So I hope yours goes well.

You do care very much and have understanding with people. That may be your pitfall and you are maybe aware of that. So keep looking near you for connections or things to do near you. Ways to meet people. You'll get there. I know it. best wishes. And happy belated birthday.

Thank you for the recent posts above. I was up all night. Will try to sleep now..

a belated Happy Happy birthday to you, Rose!

Thank you for this well thought out post. I'm sorry you got such icy treatment from your sister who purports to care about mental health challenges. I have a sister who has a master's degree in counseling. She's not a clinical counselor, but worked in the school system. Even her specialty involves training in mental health issues. She would be the last person on earth I would call, if I were depressed. Way back in the past, I did now and then. She would say: "I have plenty of things I could get depressed about, but I don't let myself get that way. You just dwell on things too much." She would get off the phone quick as she could. Her tone was firm, aloof and very dismissive. My brother, who knows I have been treated for recurring depression, has told me that I'm just too inactive and have never gotten enough exercise. He told me that I should heed the aphorism - "Move a muscle, change a thought." Each of them might have had a point with some validity. But they came across as rather judgemental. This sister actually can be very nice. She sent me a nice birthay gift. When I was very sick, physically, she was totally supportive, calling me daily.

When a parent dies, leaving assets, like real estate or money in the bank, there can be intense resentment among siblings over who got what. So @Violetta75, your guess about your brother wanting that farm sounds pretty credible to me. My sibs were all mad at each other over who inherited what.

Tonight I'm picking out things to get involved in. I'm putting them on my calendar like apointments. I thought I'ld start by going to church tomorrow. I'm not real religious, but I like going to churches. Today was a good day, but I have to keep doing things, or I'll slide right back down.

I do feel hopeful now, and that feels very good.

This is a strange thing, it sounds like we both had a similar sister and brother. Once in a blue moon my sister will get a thoughtful gift. Not for years now though. My mother and sister used to say I dwell on things too much. My brother would just say I'm lazy and go walking for hours and hours, there's no excuses.

Thanks for validating me. You are correct about the brother. He actually wrote a check for 1 dollar and sent a pic of it to me and my sister because he was upset he didn't know the value. It's all in the past, but you do get it.
They were like vultures swarming in to get everything. I never counted on anything, it took me months to take the check to the bank. I'm not perfect but funny I was the only one paying rent and looking after him best as I could. I made mistakes. I still miss them even tho there were bad things.. past is past.

I'm glad you are planning things and putting them on the calendar. I need to do this too because loneliness is a silent killer. I hope you've slept better and feel better. I'm not going to churches anymore but it doesn't hurt to do that. We need a sense of belonging somewhere. I said more and rewrote this..... be kind to yourself and I hope you've had better sleep.

I'm sorry i only slept 2 hours last night. It's just so strange. My brother is an alcholic who was busy getting stoned as my dad was dying. We cant keep holding on to things that hurt. I wasn't trying to sound proud. I just meant it felt like blood money. I'd have rather had my dad then a cheque. Sister was digging in the good stuff immediately. I don't care. I wish I had any wisdom in me for you and I dont. It's just good you are making a calendar to start.

I want to add, reading your post about that therapist who wouldn't talk when you were anxious, thinking it only fed your fear.. I don't know but is it possible for me to always seek validation when I'm unsure of what to do? Is feeding my anxiety? I don't want to be needy. It just gave me food for thought. Be kind to you, you've always done the best you could and care, that's all we can do I think.

I met my new primary care doctor yesterday.
He was a nice, young guy and seemed smart. He went over all my health issues, but seemed not too interested when I mentioned being depressed since Nov. He just wanted to know if I was suicidal. Once I said "No," he seemed satisfied that I was basically alright.

Maybe there's nothing more any doctor can do for me. I take an antidepressant medication - amitriptyline. I just wish I could talk to someone who would recognize that I have a real problem. I'm awful discouraged. This is much longer than usual for me to be depressed.

I know it's on me to pull myself together. The doctor showed most intereste in talking about me getting a mammogram and a bone density scan. I declined both.

I supposed I could just go to the psych facility on my own without a referral. That place is awful. I don't know what I want. Talking to someone who doesn't care is worse than talking to no one.

Just thinking about this is making me cry. It's 3 p.m. and I'm still not dressed. I know all the constructive things I should be doing . . . that I'm not doing.