my friends' adult children

I considered posting this in Healthy Parenting but decided to post here because this forum has more traffic and because it is ultimately about my relationships with other people more so than about parenting.

Knock on wood, my adult son is doing well professionally now, but we have been through a lot. In the past, he dropped out of college, spent some time searching for what he wanted to do, obtained a vocational license which he later decided not to use because he got disillusioned with the craft, went back to college with a different major/minor than the first time, considered dropping out again when he was almost done, sending me into shock, but ultimately got his Bachelor's in humanities albeit with bad grades. He then finished a technology boot camp that promised good chances of employment upon graduation which did not materialize because when he finished, it was high time for layoffs in the tech field and it was next to impossible to get an entry level job in tech even with a degree from a prestigious college and especially after just a boot camp. He considered going back to his college for a 2nd Bachelor's in computer science, but was told that his grades (from the first degree in humanities) were too poor to apply for a 2nd Bachelor's. And then he got a job in technology product support which is not as technical as he would have liked, but given the general employment outlook now in tech, is a true blessing. He is earning enough money to save and his job has health insurance benefits. And just a few years ago he worked hourly jobs in the service sector. He rents an apartment with his GF who herself does not work now because she is studying intensively, so he pays the rent, utilities and the food bill. She will start working when she can.

It so happens that my close friends' kids who are my son's age peers, i.e. in their 20s to early 30s, still live with parents and do not work.

In one case, the girl never went to school because she was always homeschooled and then she never went to college. She does housework and enjoys it, but she has never worked outside the home. She sleeps until 4PM and clearly has a sleep disorder but does not want to go see a doctor and is against taking medications (Provigil and Nuvigil would be obvious medication choices to try). Her mother (whom I do not know) has never worked, staying home and raising children and homeschooling, but it is not even that the mother is a homemaker in the true sense of the word because my friend (I overlapped with him on the job a great many years ago and then later we became email pen pals and that has been going on non-stop for over 10 years during which time he moved out of state and now works remotely for another company in California) tells me that she is such a hoarder that it is impossible to invite anyone over to their house (the mess, the sheer volume of accumulated stuff). They have not had guests over since they bought the house. The wife is supersensitive to criticism, so it is impossible to bring up this subject with her, and by himself my friend cannot dehoard (thanks unaluna for the term) the place, both because he works full time to support the family and make mortgage and car payments and because the wife wouldn't part with the objects she has accumulated. She wants others to tidy up. but they cannot because there is no place to store stuff. I suggested boxing stuff but he says that in addition to all this extra stuff for which there is no place, he already has many boxes, boxes and boxes and boxes of stuff, stuff that has never been unpacked since they moved out of California. In a way, the daughter is doing her family a favor by cooking now and my friend gets home-cooked meals. In mid 2010s she was not cooking and my friend would habitually go get fast food or pub food which seemed ridiculous given that the wife did not work and stayed home. He now wishes he could pay his daughter for what she does around the house, feeling that she should be compensated, but he has no extra income to compensate her.

The daughter is probably asexual, has never had a boyfriend, does not seem to find that anything is missing from her life, does not have friends, and is extremely comfortable in her own company, which is a really good thing by itself, on the one hand, but on the other hand, what will happen in 20 years? My friend is almost 60 already.

I wonder whether the daughter uses the mother as her role model in that she does not work. But the mother married and had her husband (my friend) support her, their two children together, and her children from her first marriage. If the daughter wishes to emulate that path, i.e. have children, homeschool them, etc., she needs to be dating.

I once emailed my friend suggesting that he talk with her about it, because I find it frightening that his daughter has no skills, education, or work history and he is already close to 60. He said that he was waiting for her to turn 30 to have this conversation. It has been several months since she turned 30, but now he says that he cannot find time when she is alone. Neither the wife nor the daughter drive, so in addition to being the sole breadwinner, my friend is the chauffeur of the family. He is very ill, on multiple medications, but he has found a way to make a living and worked with his doctors to find medications that allow him to earn money.

The second case. Then there is my girlfriend and the situation is probably the reverse of the above in terms of gender roles. My girlfriend, who is also almost 60, is the sole breadwinner and has been for a great many years. She has an excellent job. Her husband is now old enough not to work (he is in his 70s), but even when he was younger he only had occasional teaching contracts and nothing ever stable. He is extremely well educated in humanities and I suspect that he found other jobs below him. So it was either a teaching job at his level or nothing at all.

Their sons are Irish twins.

The elder one does not have a college degree and has done very little work (remote hourly jobs only). He has not worked in over a year. He would not even go to the local community college to take online courses. He clearly has untreated depression but it is hard to get treatment for him both due to insurance problems (he is too old to be on his mother's corporate health insurance plan) and to his resistance. He would not work minimum wage jobs. Part of it is fear of Covid, but then there are jobs such as construction jobs which are outdoors and he could do them, but he would not. I do not think he has ever considered doing these jobs.

His younger brother has a college degree but cannot find a job using his major and he cited to me the fact that his college was not accredited. He also would not work minimum wage jobs. He does not have a mental illness and is actually very jovial and super stable emotionally. He recently got married. The wife, who is his age peer, immigrated to the US to join him and does not yet have a work permit. Back in her home country she also did not work and was supported by her parents. They will soon turn 30. They met when they went together to that unaccredited college in Europe.

When I asked for her resume to show to my friend who is a professional resume writer, this young man told me that it is too early because she does not have a work permit. I almost exploded, writing to him that she would get a work permit as the wife of a US citizen fast and that they should get their ducks in a row now and have the resume ready before she becomes authorized to work, so that she would not waste time when she gets the permit. I also said that my friend has time now to look at her resume (which is a favor) and later he might be too busy for it. The young man did not respond. Either they are working on putting together her resume and he will send it soon, or I just do not know. Even if they are working on the resume draft, he should have emailed me back, saying that they would do that, and instead he simply went incommunicado.

My girlfriend has a disorder that can one day lead to blindness and then she will become disabled. She herself cannot believe what she sees at home, the younger son and now his wife making no effort to better their condition. This is so unlike her and they must be able to appreciate how hard she works and how much she is respected by her manager and collegues. I wonder if they take their dad as their role model subconsciously: he does not work. But he has a super productive, high earning wife and the sons do not: the older one is not married and does not date and the younger one is married to a woman who herself makes no effort to earn a living.

Unlike in the case of my email pen pal whose family I do not know, I know the family of my girlfriend well. I have known them since our kids were little and I sometimes consider telling the younger one point blank what I think of all of that. I would never talk to the older one because I respect the fact that he has mental illness and is emotionally fragile, but the younger one is simply infantile and would not grow up. But as with my email pen pal, it is frightening for me to think about what will happen to these kids 20 years from now when their mother won't be able to work her high paying job any more and support them all (it is probably worth mentioning that in the past she even supported her older husband's two adult kids from his first marriage, sending money to Europe while the children were receiving their education).

Unlike my pen pal's daughter, at least my girlfriends' boys drive.

***

The third and last case is with a boy not that old, in his early 20s, but still a very problematic case. He is the elder child of my friend. My friend is separated from the boy's mother who is quite a bit older than my friend. My friend is trying to get a divorce without wasting money on lawyers, but his wife is doing everything possible to delay the process, even though he has left her the house and has made many financial concessions. She does not work even though she has a valuable technical PhD. My friend has a much younger girlfriend (whom I have met) who is this quintessential, almost stereotypical drop dead gorgeous blonde bombshell, and his wife clearly is bitter about the prospect of facing retirement alone and tells my friend that she is doing him a favor by protecting him from being able to enter hastily into a new marriage (it would not have been done hastily because he has lived with this GF for several years already and historically it was actually his first marriage into which he entered very soon upon meeting that older woman and they then conceived their son right away).

So the boy is addicted to video games, has dropped out of college and gone back several times, now is in college but often does not attend his college classes and lies about it, does not seek internships even though he should be working summer jobs in his field, lives with the mother in the house that my friend left her, and is being used by the mother in her strategy to stall divorce negotiations and block my friend from remarrying. The mother wants support not only for herself but also for the now fully grown-up son, citing his inability to support himself. She is probably knowingly acting as an enabler of the son's parasitic tendencies. During the period of dropping out of college, the boy did not work. He is utterly charming but infantile.

Here, this friend of mine is only 50 and unlike the two friends whom I have described before, is fortunately not ill and is not facing the prospect of disability. He has a good job.

***

I find that I feel awkward as if I were unfairly lucky in that I do not have these problems with adult children who do not work and fully depend financially on their aging parents and who make no effort to support themselves and move out of their childhood homes.

I also find that I have these repeated impulses to do something, to intervene, to talk to the two boys described in case 2 and case 3, to awaken them, to sound an alarm, to explain that these situations can reach a point of no return, to call for a sense of responsibility and for concern for their supporting and hard working parents. But then I realize that I can make these untenable situations even worse, that on some level these children have the requisite understanding, they just cannot convert the understanding into productive action and help themselves. I am also afraid of causing hurt and anguish to my dear friends

What would you do? Would you do anything? Or would you just mind your own business and try to avoid talking with these friends about their children?

Also, are you aware of resources for the children who are so dependent on aging parents and who clearly feel that they are above low paying jobs so they work none at all?

I understand having a desire to help and i often succumb to the desire of helping people to lead a better life. But unless someone actually wants to change, there’s no point. And honestly unless they ask for help and are receptive, there is nothing one can do. If your friends decide to enable their children, there is nothing to be accomplished by interfering. I’d stay out if it unless they start this conversation and ask for your advice.

None of my friends have such kids. Their kids either all fine or they don’t have any.

But my husband’s two nephews lived at home not working or going to school well into late 20s. We could never comprehend it. They finally started working (not gainfully but whatever) and moved out. My sister in law likes to be critical of her bother, my husband, yet she thought it’s ok to enable her kids. Bizarre.

Yeah stay out of it if you can help it. I’d not worry about resources. These kids live this way because they can. And they can because parents allow it. No amount of resources would change that

In twenty years there may well be universal basic income. Plus your friends may be leaving real estate and funds for their children. It's not the same world we graduated into. But yes it sounds tragic to me. Helicopter parenting never ends, it seems.

Stay in your lane when it comes to children. Do not give advice or involve yourself in giving advice to others about their children.

FYI: I am assuming you are not aware, but the term "Irish twins" is derogatory and it came from the stereotype of poor Irish immigrants having large families because they didn't use birth control for religious reasons.

Yeah, do not interfere with other people’s children especially since they are of age and can make their own choices. Just because that’s something that would cause you stress if it were your child doesn’t mean you should interfere.

I think it’s common for parents to criticize their kids among themselves or anonymously like we do on a forum. We all do. I do. I’d bite somebody’s head off if anyone critiqued my kid to me. Especially unsolicited. Except if school teacher has valid concerns. Friends and family better be quiet.

No, I did not know it. I used it as the only translation I know of the Russian term погодки (I grew up in Moscow), which literally means kids born a year apart and has no connotation with respect to birth control. But I am not sure that Irish Twins is universally considered derogatory these days: for instance, Irish Twins: Definition, Origin, and What It Means for You says: "Today, the term is typically not intended as an insult, but rather as a way of classifying siblings born close together. For instance, some families might proudly use the term to describe the short timespan between the births of their children."

Oh, I remember how my late maternal grandma used to say about her younger cousin who wanted to give her advice about her two grown daughters and in general about other people who volunteer to give parenting advice: "Get your own children and raise them any which way you want!"

That’s true that’s how parents might laughingly refer to their own kids. But it’s usually not appropriate to refer to other people’s kids as Irish twins. It does have a negative connotation because it points at a culture/race/ethnicity. Those just aren’t safe simply because originally they meant to be degrading for a specific ethnicity and culture. Irish people faced a lot of discrimination and negativity in the US. So it’s just safer to not use the terms

It’s obvious you didn’t mean any offense though

All right. In terms of what to do, or rather, what not to do: I will stay in my lane.

Thank you for weighing in.

In the months leading up to the wedding, when my girlfriend's younger son's fiancée was still living in her home country and her son was making plans on how they would take my girlfriend's extra items stored in the younger son's bedroom in her own dresser to make space for his future wife's clothes, my girlfriend said to me on the phone that she was appalled by how nonchalantly the kid was making these plans, and yet that she could not show the kids the door because they would not be able to afford renting a place of their own. So yes, she enables them, but she is also being realistic in that she cannot kick them out in an area with such exorbitant rental prices.

My girlfriend is an excellent cook who makes elaborate and visually appealing French cuisine dishes and as a rule uses animal protein. Her son "warned" her that his then fiancée had just become a vegetarian, expecting the mom to cook something separate for her daughter-in-law when she arrived. At that my friend balked, suggesting that the young woman cook for herself. I do not know how this all developed in actuality after the wedding; I suspect that the newlywed woman cooks for herself but my friend is left with dirty dishes from all that cooking. But at least my friend stood up for herself and did not take on yet another obligation.

I will reread the responses on this thread when I feel another impulse to interfere.

That’s insane. It doesn’t make sense

I think if people are old enough to play house and marry, they should live on their own. If you want to live with your parents, you should remain single and just date.

Now I understand prices are high but you either learn to make more money or move. I make decent money and so does my husband but we can’t afford nice house in Manhattan. So we live in Midwest. Make choices

Just because I want something does not mean I got to have it and get other people to support my “wants” as these aren’t “needs”.

I understand having hard time saying no to one’s kids. If my daughter was homeless I would take her in but she wouldn’t be free to bring men to live in my house too and tell me what I am suppose to cook for these men. No thanks

So first off, I understand the frustration you feel for your friends, and it seems you are writing out of concern for their wellbeing that their adult children are putting on them. That is admirable - you are a caring friend.

As to your question, what can you do? Nothing. And nothing is pretty much what you should do. You cannot save these adult children or save their parents from them. You are already doing exactly what you can: offering appropriately tempered advice and offers of assistance (resume reviewing, etc.) but ultimately you cannot force them to do anything.

As a friend, the best you can do is offer moral support to your friends as parents and you can keep offering to help review things or provide advice. Other than that, it's the parents' job to push those kids out of the nest and let them figure out how to fly. I know that's harsh, and also it's a lot harder for kids to start out in this day and age, but it's not going to get any easier. But, like I said, it's not your place to do any more than what you are doing.

And thank you for being a good friend. I'm sure your friends appreciate how thoughtful and caring you are.

I just thought of something.

Some people have very hard time letting their children go (I mean everyone had hard time but ultimately you get to let them grow up no matter how you feel). But some people just can’t let the kids go so they deliberately or subconsciously cultivate dependence in their children.

If they are jobless and homeless, they aren’t likely to ever have their own homes/families and move out, let alone more far away. So these parents will never be lonely and alone and experience empty nester syndrome as their kids will never fully grow up. They might complain about their kids but deep inside they don’t want their kids to grow up. So when we think we’ll save these people by teaching their kids independence, ultimately it’s not what these parents want at all.

I’m going to be honest, I’d be pretty horrified if I thought friends of mine were looking over mine and my families life in a critical way. I don’t mean that unkindly towards you, because I believe you mean well and care but it would honestly compromise a friendship for me.

Also my gut feeling is we have to be very careful about our own values being framed on others lives, it might look like certain behaviour is a problem and it might even be so, but long term that person may be learning by experience and may progress along a very different path. I’m maybe not explaining that very well but what I essentially mean is we all have our own paths to follow in life but they aren’t always the paths that we begin along (like your own son who seems to be finding his way).

I understand what you are saying. Sometimes we think we know what’s better for other people, basing it on our own ideas, values and experiences. But ultimately we don’t really know.

In case 1, it might be deliberate. My friend told me that his wife, who is in her late 60s, might be planning to have her youngest daughter take care of her in her old age. Her other children all live their own lives, and some have children of their own.