My ex came to the house

I think you and your son are way too invested in wanting DD to see your ex right now as you see her. You both need to back off. DD will develop some illusions that her mom could be what she'ld like her to be. Her mom will eventually shatter those illusions. DD will know some disappointment and get a reality check. That's life. You would prefer that your daughter not go through anything like that, but it's not within your control. Pain is part of how we mature. If your daughter has a safe, supportive home with you then that will be the bigger influence on her. Her mother's manipulations will wear thin.

@Rose76 DD went to the son & he had every right to tell her his boundaries & set them firm. That in no way is telling her what to do it is nothing more than him telling her what he needs to do for his well being & something he has every right to do. I see no intent there to make DD see mom the way he does. It is her choice all along & ALL choices have consequences & he i8s just letting her know what one of those consequences will be. She has a right to know known consequences. If she makes the choice to connect with her mom then she may learn there are more consequences than just the one with her brother. That is real life.

For a young man of this son's age to be telling his kid sister that he'll have nothing to do with her, if she is in contact with her mother, is ridiculous. He can do whatever he wants to safeguard his boundaries. Making that big announcement to his sister was uncalled for. So now he can't even be in his father's house because that would put him in contact with someone who is seeing the mother he wants to avoid. He's trying to guilt her.

Where does he plan to go, since he "won't be home."? I don't believe he's going anywhere. He's trying to make it sound like his sister will be ruining his life. He's free to leave the house, when his mother is there. He's free to have nothing to do with his mother. But he says he can't have anything to do with DD, unless she will refuse to have nothing to do with her mother. That's the way high school girls in mean cliques operate. That's being manipulative. I think he's way out of line to pressure his sister in that way. He is trying to set his sister's boundaries, which is wrong.

Some consequences are inevitable, some are not. If the consequence of DD talking to her mother is that big brother will choose to cut her out of his life, then big brother needs to get over himself.

I agree with Rose on many points.

I don’t think mother needs to be in their house showing up unannounced. She doesn’t live there.

But if visitations are properly established, DD has rights to see her mother.

I don’t think it’s up to her brother when and if DD sees her mom. Kids typically have rights to maintain contacts and see their parents (in the absence of abuse and court orders prohibiting parents from seeing their children).

Even if for whatever crazy reason it was decided to let mom visit DD in the house, it’s not up to him. If he doesn’t like it, he could go somewhere for the timing being so he won’t see mom but he can’t make these decisions.

I think it’s a but ridiculous for him to say that he won’t have any contacts with anyone who talks to his mother. Like why?

So he’s threatening a child (I assume she’s not of legal age) to cut her off if she’s as much as talks to her mother? That’s highly inappropriate. It puts a kid in a bad situation. He needs to be told to knock it off.

She has rights to see her mother (if courts agree). Making her choose is not right on many levels. She’s not even an adult.

Her brother has the right to make his choice how he is going to handle the situation for himself. Much better for him to tell her what he is doing than say nothing & leave her wondering. He chose a reasonable way to handle his boundaries. It would be dysfunctional for him not to acknowledge his needs & set his boundaries.

She is old enough to make choices & understand the family dynamics going on

There are health things she will want to discuss with a woman, hopefully not just her girlfriends.

You ok @RDMercer?

@unaluna She’s got a couple of women she’s comfortable turning to.

And to be honest, I’ll tackle almost anything. She’s asked me some pretty direct questions about her periods. If I can’t find an answer, she has a couple of women she turns to, but also I’ve removed any stigma of going to the sexual health nurse at her school. There’s also a teen sexual health clinic in the city near my work and I’ve taken her for women’s health support and questions probably 5 or 6 times.

@Open Eyes. I think so.

My parents are here. I’m doing well coming to terms with their positives and negatives and I’m thankful it happened while I still had them.

Dad’s a damaged person. I’ve come to realize he’s got strong traits of communal narcissism; heavily entrenched in his religion, volunteers everywhere, makes a martyr of himself, complains others don’t do as much and sometimes complains he doesn’t have enough (because he’s given so much away). But he’s not a bad person. Both my parents grew up with trauma and they carry that.

I think mom drank at times because she was emotionally lonely. Dad ADORES her, but I think she could feel something was off. Dad always provided for us and was good to us, but he was emotionally distant.

Dad shows love by doing. So…. “Come on up and show me how to measure and install my windows, and fix the frame on my couch.” So they’re here.

Mom has early dementia but she’s simply wonderful and funny and adorable. We’re watching old Hulk Hogan matches and she’s hooting and hollering with me.

After I saw my wife, I felt desperately low for four days, then a LOT better….. Like….. Really relaxed and peaceful

Since then it’s been up and down but more up than down.

Also…Back to Dad….. Communal narcissists want to feel important and often draw attention by giving. I used to stress about that because I saw Dad giving SO much away.

Now I say, “Hey Dad. I wish we could all go to Montana’s but it’s expensive.” Then he offers to buy. He always gives me his Visa to pay. I’ve resolved that 1 in every 3 times I use his card. The other times I take his card, and then I pay.

The kids are here with BFs and GFs.

Not so bad.

I’m curious, do you see some of your own values in your father? Do you think you might be too generous?

@Rose76
@divine1966

There were several posts here I’d missed.

The oldest has options of where he’s going to live; whether it’s with friends, GF, or whatever.

His mother was far more abusive towards him than his sister and that is coming out in family counselling. He made a police report to take out a restraining order to keep her from coming home when we first separated and he will be making statements in court against his mom.

Does he feel unsafe around her and does her presence affect him? Yes. Does his sister get to have a relationship with her mom if she wishes? Yes. Does he get to protect himself? Yes. Has my daughter’s therapist also advised she not be in contact with her mom? Yes. Does my daughter still have the right to see her mom? Yes.

There’s nothing he needs to “knock off”. Right now his mom is pursuing a relationship with ONE of her kids. Just one. This is what triangulation in emotional abuse looks like. He’s not the one who caused it. He’s being victimized and people protect his abuser instead of him. I’d run from that too if I was his age. My son is 20 now. Kids leave home younger than that to run from emotional and mental abuse.

Do I worry I’m too generous? No. I don’t give away significant amounts of time or money and I’m with my kids a lot.

Your son sounds like he struggles with the psychological abuse he suffered from his mother. Even though he is big and strong now on the outside, he has a very troubled child part in him that still suffers. He has a right to completely distance from his mother and it’s understandable he wants you and his sister to be safe from potential abuse.

When the oldest was 16 he began asking me to sleep in a different room. Because of the floor plan in our house he could hear stuff from our room and no one else could. He heard his mom’s anger at me night after night. He came into our room and asked her to stop many times and saw me in my usual spot, sitting on the floor away from the door. I’m a strong guy. My wife had accused me of trying to physically intimidate her and block the door to prevent her from leaving the room. . When she’d begin berating me I’d move away from the door and take a physical position lower than her.

I’ve requested mediation and a divorce settlement multiple times and she’s refused. She’s adamant she’s going to financially destroy me and take everything. She’s also said repeatedly she’s going to “ruin” me. My son heard those threats from her over the years during late night fights. He confronted her with all this about five months before we separated. She denied it ALL and has continued to say she was blindsided by the separation and there had never been talk of separation in our marriage.

So, I’ll be testifying that I was abused. He’s the only person who can corroborate that.

There’s also abuse he’s talked about in family counselling that I didn’t know about, but there’s corroborating evidence for everything he’s saying. I believe him.

While she was loudly threatening divorce in our final months my son said repeatedly, “What about me and my plans for college? You can’t take this from me.” Every time he said that she replied “Once you’re 18 you’re not my problem. Figure it out.”

So…. He needs to feel safe and wanted someplace. He thought he was going insane for a while because the gaslighting was so bad.

He told my daughter he can’t question himself or feel uncertain before going to court. He’s also scared his mom will find out about where he’s staying when he’s not home, where he’s working, etc. Therefore if she wants a relationship with her mom, he’s staying away.

His mom fawning over daughter periodically while denying things daughter said occurred is just triangulation abuse and more gaslighting. . He’s not caused any of this, and it’s not him who’s bullying and coercing daughter.

The periodic fawning also has a term; breadcrumbing. Her mom is giving her samples of the love she needs…. But not actually. It’s not real, and it’s not true parental love.

But if I tell her that, and she tells her mom I said that, mom can cry parental alienation in court.


RDMercer

What I admire most about your son is that he knows himself, acknowledges the hurt his mom caused & is wise enough to take action that is in the best interest of his own self care without doubting it or needing outside validation to do what he knows he needs to do. You have a son to be very proud of

*tears*

You and your kids have endured so much.

Covert abuse is so very, very awful. The abuser is so good at playing the victim, that the true victims can end up being doubted, and ultimately doubly victimized.

You're doing a great job of weighing your options, and making good decisions about how to deal with the situations that come up. But, wow, it's tough.

What I see here is two people divorcing who are bitter and hostile and each trying to recruit their kids into taking sides. It's an old and familiar story that brings credit to no one.

Divine 1966 gave exellent advice about limiting ex-wife's access to your home and having her contact with her daughter be court-directed. Or do you prefer that your ex and daughter meet and converse under your roof, where you can listen in on their interaction?

Give your daughter a little credit for not being a total fool. Kids are pretty good at figuring out who loves them. It's not your place to tell your daughter that her mother doesn't love her and is only throwing breadcrumbs her way. That would constitute alienation. Aside from the implications in court that you do fear, it is just wrong. DD didn't get to choose who she would have for a mother. You made that choice for her.

If your ex is the monster you portray her as - which I'm not disputing - one has to question your judgement in marrying such a person. Maybe your judgement is less than perfect, all-knowing and all-wise. Maybe it's time for a little humility, instead of this high-stakes competition over who the kids will side with . . . and who the therapist will side with. Therapists are not supposed to make decisions for their clients.

The therapist telling DD to have no contact with her mother sounds out of line to me. If you are paying for all this therapy, perhaps the therapist is courting favor with you. Therapists have families to support and bills to pay, just like the rest of us. This whole family therapy enterprise sounds like a non-stop quest to demonize your ex. and satisfy an insatiable hunger for validation. Apparently, this therapist has been delivering the goods.

Your daughter is under intense pressure to conform to other's expectations of who she should love and whose "side" she should be on. That's unhealthy for her. It's apt to mold her in ways that you won't like. It could lead to her feeling she has to put on a false front and change it, depending on who she's with. This is how you teach a child to be manipulative. Sounds like her brother has already mastered that.

That is uncalled for. Im reporting you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose76 What I see here is two people divorcing who are bitter and hostile and each trying to recruit their kids into taking sides. It's an old and familiar story that brings credit to no one.

Not wise to project when not there & experiencing & understanding exactly what is going on

@Rose76

My wife perpetrated physical, mental, and emotional abuse on me and my son, and neglected our daughter.

The kids asked me to get them out repeatedly for over a year before we split.

Since then we’ve each, separately, learned about CPTSD, covert narcissism and borderline personality disorder

I’m not labelling her or diagnosing her. I’m telling you we EACH, SEPARATELY have been referred to treatment for this type of abuse, including family therapy and psychiatric referrals. This week our family doctor said our daughter had physical symptoms of CPTSD and chronic anxiety and was referred to a pediatric psychiatrist.

My daughter, by court order, lives with me exclusively. She was attending therapy with her mom in 2023 but the therapist turned her mom away because of the gaslighting and damage she was causing in sessions.

There are people around us who don’t believe us.

You’d be one of them.

People often don’t believe abused men.

Many never believed my husband about his ex even after my stepdaughters would convey what was happening, people’s still say “you are a big guy, there’s no way that took place”. And many who believed still blamed him, this time for staying too long. Like it’s that easy.

Many people still buy an old narrative of men always being abusers and women always being victims. I know it’s very far from the truth.

As about mom having parental rights. If her rights weren’t taken away, then of course she has them but it’s curious that she’s not petitioning for established visitations. I wonder if it’s because she knows she might not get the visitations? So she thinks she can just show up and will be let in

When is the divorce final?