[thesnowqueen]

Turns out my now deceased T was seeing about 50 or 60 patients a week. Apparently he 'transformed' everyones lives. Everyone loved him; everyone admired him. I missed the memorial but apparently there were masses -

Over the years he made me feel that having a large social group and sphere of influence was not necessary for a sense of adequacy and self-worth. But for some reason his massive popularity and near-cult status (which is now how its appearing to me) is totally undermining that. Feel like crap under someones shoes

[thesnowqueen]

And these important, pivotal, much-loved figures die and creeps who would like nothing better are stuck puttering around.

[Ididitmyway]

I looked at the other thread about your T's sudden death. I am very sorry for your loss. I can see from this post that there are other things that make your T's passing a heavy thing for you to process..Though I haven't been though this particular experience and can't relate, from other intense and dark experiences I have had I can tell than the darker and the heavier the experience, the more opportunity it gives us to transcend the suffering into growth and expansion. It's ok to be where you are and to experience what you experience. Let it be and trust your process. It'll take you where you need to be.

[thesnowqueen]

A friend just told me that he must have cared deeply about me - perhaps even loved me - as a caregiver might love a patient - given that he listened to my **** for 8 years!

That made me feel a lot better. But what right do I have to believe he felt any way at all towards me? None. I was just one in a large data base...

[thesnowqueen]

"I can tell than the darker and the heavier the experience, the more opportunity it gives us to transcend the suffering into growth and expansion."

I think its the joker in batman who says - 'what doesn't kill us, makes us stranger.' Honestly, that's how I feel about pain - it just makes one weirder and weirder...

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

"I can tell than the darker and the heavier the experience, the more opportunity it gives us to transcend the suffering into growth and expansion."

I think its the joker in batman who says - 'what doesn't kill us, makes us stranger.' Honestly, that's how I feel about pain - it just makes one weirder and weirder...

I always preferred weird to "normal' I may not always like it but I still prefer it because it seems more genuine.

[nicoleflynn]

Don't let ANYone define who you are or what you need. YOU get to do that.

[Twistedfate22]

Hmmm well I do think he is correct. It's not necessary but prob would be easier to feel worthy of a bunch of people love you. But I see what you mean, it's a "yeah... Easy for you to say" type of thing.

[growlycat]

Hope this helps-- My longtime psychodynamic T once said that love is not a finite resource--the more you have the bigger it grows. He said that he would not have room in his heart for
patients if he did not have love in his personal life

[thesnowqueen]

What made a difference was remembering him telling me that I don't need to be someone else... It's strange because I realised that even if a gazillion people adored me and - I suppose - came to my funeral, or something, the idea of it didn't make me feel any better. It seemed worthless, because it wasn't the people who adored him (and I have no idea who they even are). So, somehow, behind the whole thing was the sense that whatever I am is not ok, that I literally need to be someone else. Freaky...

But when I remember HIM pointing out that I don't need to be someone else, I actually feel like I don't need to. Guess that is a positive result of attachment in therapy - or something.

[HowDoYouFeelMeow?]

I have many students, but it doesn't make me love them as individuals any less. I think it is similar for Ts.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

Turns out my now deceased T was seeing about 50 or 60 patients a week. Apparently he 'transformed' everyones lives. Everyone loved him; everyone admired him. I missed the memorial but apparently there were masses -

Over the years he made me feel that having a large social group and sphere of influence was not necessary for a sense of adequacy and self-worth. But for some reason his massive popularity and near-cult status (which is now how its appearing to me) is totally undermining that. Feel like crap under someones shoes

I can see how that would be confusing. How many clients actually truly know their T, even after years? You are relating to a performer of sorts, and then when you find out something about their real life, there is that upsetting dissonance.

And this is a bit cynical, but I also wonder how many Ts are in the biz precisely because they crave the adoration that comes from having all these worshipful clients. In other words, therapy is about the client ostensibly, but in reality the T is at the center of it.

[thesnowqueen]

Originally Posted by BudFox

I can see how that would be confusing. How many clients actually truly know their T, even after years? You are relating to a performer of sorts, and then when you find out something about their real life, there is that upsetting dissonance.

And this is a bit cynical, but I also wonder how many Ts are in the biz precisely because they crave the adoration that comes from having all these worshipful clients. In other words, therapy is about the client ostensibly, but in reality the T is at the center of it.

Well, I am going to be cynical too and suggest that much of our lives IS performance generally. Of course each performance brings its own difficulties and complexities, potential for hurt, etc. Performance is not necessarily exploitative and in the therapeutic context it has particular aims.

I would imagine many Ts are in the practice for ego supply and I very much doubt that these Ts are able to have a beneficial effect on patients. Since their ends are exploitative, I wonder if, in the long run they WOULD have a large and adoring clientele?

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

Well, I am going to be cynical too and suggest that much of our lives IS performance generally. Of course each performance brings its own difficulties and complexities, potential for hurt, etc. Performance is not necessarily exploitative and in the therapeutic context it has particular aims.

I would imagine many Ts are in the practice for ego supply and I very much doubt that these Ts are able to have a beneficial effect on patients. Since their ends are exploitative, I wonder if, in the long run they WOULD have a large and adoring clientele?

Yes, true everyone is putting on some sort of act. But I see therapy as a particular and extreme sort of performance. You dont get to see the T in anything but a narrowly defined role, they are by definition obscure and concealed (while the client bares all), in the same room, nobody else around ever. How is the client to judge the therapist's motives or the authenticity of it? And if the goal is relational healing for the client whose past includes relational trauma, then seems to me authenticity and motives matter a lot.

Yea maybe a large and adoring clientele does indicate something good and worthwhile.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by BudFox

Yea maybe a large and adoring clientele does indicate something good and worthwhile.

Actually, not always. My third T who had crossed professional boundary with me and started a personal relationship had many clients who adored him. Is it because he was doing something worthy of appreciation? Absolutely. But that didn't make many of his actions any less exploitative.

This is often the case with cult leaders. When we hear stories of various cults from our outsider's perspective they seem abusive and yet many cult members would swear that a particular organization and its leader saved their life, and, most importantly, this is, probably, true. Does it make that cult a symbol of purity and altruism? Nope. All it means is that something that is very dark and exploitative can also have a potential to heal, and that's something that many people find a hard time understanding and accepting.

I've known people who were ex-members of organizations who met the criteria for being called cults. What they told me is that they left the organization after realizing that they were being abused, but they also said that they didn't regret the experience because in some ways it was very healing and growth promoting.

I can attest that even the most abusive experience of my adult life, my first therapy experience, brought me a lot of helpful insights. Does that make my first T any less abusive? Hell, no. I will always hold him responsible for his actions. At the same time, I don't regret the experience because it made me a much wiser and stronger person.

So, life is more paradoxical and complex than how we see it. "Bad" people and experiences can bring some unexpected benefits and "good" people can do harm and "good" experiences can all of a sudden turn traumatic.

All in all, I don't believe we would get in harmful situations in the first place and stay in them as long as we do if everything about the situation was harmful and there was nothing beneficial at all. At some point, when benefits end, we still continue to believe that we are getting something beneficial out of it, and, as long as we believe it, we won't leave the situation. And, finally, when it becomes clear that we are getting only harm and no benefits any more, we either leave or the situation ends otherwise. Once it becomes crystal clear that we are getting nothing but bad stuff, the situation ends instantly, it doesn't continue a second longer. It's just a metaphysical law I happen to believe because it proved to be true so many times in my life.

[thesnowqueen]

True: in abstract the fact of a large 'adoring' clientele does not imply principled behaviour or proper motivation. That was an overly simplistic suggestion. In fact, my first reaction to news of all the mourners etc, was to wonder about whether this kind of response had been deliberately elicited.

Reflecting on sessions, however, it seems to me that T tried to curtail idealisation and did not - even unconsciously - try to provoke it. None of his behaviour suggested an interest in 'ego supply'.

In this case I think it was a principled, and committed engagement with many people that lead to this outcome. But I guess the opposite could have resulted in something that looked similar.

Budfox, I agree the performance is different from other performances in various ways. I suspect a client is still able to infer T's attitude and motivations to some extent though. For instance, you have said your ex-T was giddy on your adoration. It seems this was fairly obvious?

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

Budfox, I agree the performance is different from other performances in various ways. I suspect a client is still able to infer T's attitude and motivations to some extent though. For instance, you have said your ex-T was giddy on your adoration. It seems this was fairly obvious?

Good point, yes the client might be able to infer things. But they are at a distinct disadvantage, with the T's camouflage and all their restrictions on self-disclosure. My T's motivations and responses were not obvious in the moment, cuz I was too overcome by the euphoria of the experience. Only later, when damage was already done could I see clearly.