Trying to get out

I really relate to being drained by the obsession - I'm feeling that today too.

You're pretty critical and judgmental, and maybe you're trying to be helpful? But I'm HONESTLY TRULY doing the best that I can.

Again, im not trying to be critical or judgmental. Im not saying, hes awful, get away, how can you do this?

Im just trying to explain to you, how he sees it. And how you see it. And where you two are talking PAST, not TO, each other.

Like when he said, you can email but he wont read it. You think hes playing word games with you, and REALLY means, dont email him. But in this case, he IS being literal and has a psychological reason for what he is saying. But you are not catching what he is pitching. If you two could actually HEAR and agree on what the other is saying in just this little exchange - "when you say x, i hear y", like they do in typical couples counseling - i really think you two could get somewhere. He could meet his goals, and you could meet yours. Instead of you ASSUMING what he REALLY means.

I met with my "bad" t a few times after i got with good t. He was basically like, "well, i could be more like your ggod t, but thats not how i was trained. But now that youre all past it and open and honest, maybe you should see me again." I was like, too little too late buddy. Things still arent easy with my good t, but hey we do the best we can.

We are all wishing you the best and hope to see you through this. I am not the enemy.

You think he said don't email him because he's actually trying to help me? I'm 99% sure it's because he doesn't want all of the inappropriate things he said in writing. You think he actually has goals for me?

I think T1 is playing word games, and, mind games. To tell a client it's ok to email him but he will not read it is a cheap power play. Now when you get upset over not being able to email him anymore (because in essence, that is what he is telling you indirectly), he can say, "I never said you couldn't email me." It's very manipulative and shady. Shifting the blame onto you is classic gaslighting.

Was looking up operant conditioning, trying to figure out why it's so triggering to me...I found something I wanted to pass on to you:

I think ultimately, from what you said about your last session with him, yes, he wants this therapy to work.

I see nothing inherently "evil" in his saying you can email him but he wont read it. I did this for at least the first six months with my current t. It was like a continuation of the session.

You are rushing ahead and assigning evil meanings to things he hasnt even written yet. Stop. Rushing. Ahead.

I know im verrrrrry slow, one step at a time. My t is too fast for me. You guys have the opposite problem. Hes actually just sitting there, most of the time, and you are jumping from assumption to assumption.

Maybe he IS a bad t because he doesnt know that he shouldnt say stuff like yes he desires you. My prev bad t once said, "well i AM a man!" I was too dense to let that in.

With current t, sure there have been moments when the air seems charged with electricity; sometimes that is sexual tension, but often that means some psychological good is happening. That IS how it works, at least for me. Its as if i can SEE my four year old face beaming. But i dont think im unique in that.

People dont talk enough about what actually happens in session, imo.

He didn't say she could email him. "He said that we are to have no more email contact between sessions. He said that if I email him from now on he won't open or read it."

My bad. Thanks.

It's so confusing. He said "No more email contact. In fact, if you send me an email, I won't open it or read it."

Then I said I felt like I was being punished because he said I can't email him anymore and he said: "I never said that. You're twisting my words around and distorting things. I didn't say you couldn't email me. I just said I won't open or read or respond to it."

I bawled my eyes out at the coffee shop next to my house this morning over this. My husband doesn't even know what to do anymore. He just lets me cry it out.

I was just remember how kind T1 was to me for so many years. He was the second person to know I was pregnant after my husband. He helped me through my whole pregnancy when I cried in his office every single day. He bought me a book and gave it to me after I had my baby. I brought my baby to sessions for six months and he told me how good I was at being a mom. He was even kind to me after I told him about my feelings for him.

It was when I emailed him about how amazing the things he'd said made me feel and how amazing I felt after he held my hands that everything went wrong. And he kept telling me it was OK to express my anger, but then when I did he completely shut down, got scared, and locked me out of all of the kindness and warmth and now I don't know how to get it back.

It sounds like you have a very supportive and loving husband, ramona.

I don't think there is any reason to stick with a bad (and now obviously destructive) therapist in order to try to understand him, adapt to him, and find a "common ground". One thing that I would keep in mind and emphasize to myself is what you said repeatedly here, that T1 is bad at his job and has not been helpful in the issues that originally brought you to him. Instead, he has created another problem or, even if the seed of it was already there in you, he keeps expanding it. I would not be moved by his apparent admission that your better choice would be T2 - that's just stating the obvious and still not owning up to his lack of competency. Even if we disregard this whole recent ET thing, what has he given to you apart from feeding your sexual arousal with his unprofessional comments (including the last one about his wanting you to stay)? Has he helped with the depression and other things?

Reading all this stuff, I can easily imagine that he does not have as many clients as he would want to and of course he wants you to stay to secure part of his income. Perhaps even to feed his own insecurity and poor opinion of himself via your clinging to him. Manipulates you massively to try to achieve that. Obviously this process has brought up imporant problem areas in you, ramona, but the thing to do is NOT to "work on it" with an incompetent therapist who is unable to help. Based on your posts, you seem like a stronger, more authentic person than this guy, who is not even able and/or willing to admit defeat and is trying to sneak out of responsibility. If you want to still go to sessions with him, I would continue to tell him these things explicitly.

Also, it's normal and natural that you are sad and feel very frustrated over all this. It's a form of grief and also your way of admitting to yourself that the approach with T1 has not worked out. I would grab what I learned from it and focus on finding better solutions.

i totally get this. there are still loving feelings i have for people who abused me. people are not all good or all bad. there is a mixture within us, sometimes one manages to outweigh the other. i understand craving the good parts and wanting them back. i think that is totally natural.

My husband is so kind. I sobbed all morning. He encouraged me to go to yoga because that usually makes me feel better. Then I came back and sobbed on our porch for 20 minutes. Then told him I needed some more time to cry so now I'm in the bedroom crying while he takes care of the baby.

I just feel so badly because I lost something that I wanted by standing up for myself. I could have kept this pseudo-emotional affair with T1 going if only I hadn't asked for so much. Now I can't stop crying and my whole life seems like a dead end and I can't see any light.

And T1 won't take any responsibility at all. It's like I've made the entire thing up. I feel SO ****ing LONELY.

YES JDNA! This is the worst! Because I think about all of the times he was kind to me and think--"I know he's not a bad guy deep down! He was kind to me for many years--truly kind." And that's why I feel like it's my fault. I brought up something that he couldn't handle and it caused him to turn to feel threatened and turn to stone and it's just ****ing CRUSHING to me. If he was some sort of straight up sexual predator, I could say: "Oh--he's evil! He really manipulated and took advantage of me!" But he was really just more careless and clueless and incompetent than anything else. It's so HARD to let myself just be angry at him when it seems like he really bore me no ill will. He ****ed me up TERRIBLY, but he didn't mean to.

It's hard to know exactly why people do things like this. Have you ever heard the saying.. "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

There is a book by phillip zimbardo. He did the Stanford prison experiment. It's called "why good people do bad things". I recommend it

Unreal. He definitely sounds like a gaslighter. Probably unintentional as most gaslighters are. What Is Gaslighting

That's so hard!! I kind of had a similar experience with my old t only our relationship was dual and completely platonic.

A few words of advice from my new t that I want to pass along to you, which of course you can take or leave as you like. 1. You can't get it back. It can never the same again. He has already "poisoned the system" and there is no taking it back. Grieve the loss so you can learn to move forward. This will serve you better than clinging to the past. 2. You will never be able to understand what has happened or what is happening while you are still in the chaos. Once you get out, the clarity and understanding will come from the relief of the chronic confusion that has consumed you for so long. 3. This isn't your fault so be kind to yourself. You are a sane person caught up in a crazy-making situation. Leaving t1 is a process. As long as you keep working towards leaving, it will happen on your time.

My new t also suggested I check out Al Anon (my old t was/is an alcoholic) or Co-dependents anonymous meetings for added support, understanding, and help with letting go. Very, very helpful groups. Here's a link to co-dependents anonymous just in case...

New to CoDA? - CoDA.org

THere's a movie about it: The Stanford Prison Experiment (2015) - IMDb

It's on Amazon. It might be on Neflix too.

I watched it but it really freaked me out, the idea that people with a conscious can be capable of such horrendous behaviors. I could see such behaviors if you were trying to survive; save someone's life, etc., but in this context...very triggering.

Well he's both. Everyone has good and bad aspects; just different degrees.

It's totally ok to still love him for the good that he brought to you, while not putting up with the bad.

eta-just read JunkDNA's post that said something similar. Didn't intend to be repetitive.

Cried SO MUCH today. There are moments where I really feel like I can do it--just call and leave a very neutral simple message saying I'm discontinuing therapy, but it's fear of the aftermath that keeps me from actually following through. It's GOTTA end. I was walking home from yoga this morning and stopped to tie my shoe while walking over a bridge near my house and just really thought about flinging myself over because it just hurts too much. There are times where I can really completely and rationally get that this is NUTS and in no way worth it, and then I get so desperately sucked back in. I am legitimately afraid of what my life will be like without him. I know it doesn't make sense, because it's Hell WITH him, but I am so scared.

the movie wasnt very good in my opinion. the book explained the concept so much more articulately and in depth

its basically when people are given a mentality, usually about authority... they begin to think differently, and are able to misuse it, and some probably will in some ways. also sometimes people do actually think they are doing the "right" thing.

anyway i dont wanna deter the thread, sorry

Seriously consider going to a co-dependent meeting. It will probably help put your situation into perspective and allow you to give yourself some breathing room.

New to CoDA? - CoDA.org

I had the exact thoughts as you reading this entire thread.

Intermittent reinforcement and a trauma bond from T1's abuse.

Just looked at the link. There's a meeting literally 50 feet from my house on Wednesday nights but that's when I see T2!

Can't believe I got through today. Didn't think I would make it. I thought I was going to start drinking at noon. I waited till 7:30 and am having wine now.

Discovered something pretty big with my husband tonight. I was talking to him and said: "Honey, do you think you could please look at me when we're talking?"

He said eye contact has always been uncomfortable for him! I said: "But it's ME. We've been together 15 years. I need you to look at me and see me when we're talking--especially if I'm going to stop going to my therapist." (He doesn't know the details of what's happened with T1 but knows he hasn't helped me and definitely unconsciously knows it's an inappropriate relationship, but avoids talking about stuff like this.) He was annoyed at first that I said this to him but then a few minutes later came out of the kitchen and told me it's something that's been hard for him his whole life and something he talks to his therapist about a lot--that he doesn't want to look people in the eye. I told him it's a MAJORLY BIG DEAL for me and that I need to feel "seen" if I'm going to break away from this dude. He said he understands and that it's something that we can work on together.

Regarding T1, I left him a message yesterday saying I couldn't meet at the appointment time he offered this week. I don't know if he'll call me back tomorrow or not. The raging addict within me thinks the thing to do is to go back one more time, drop ALL of my graphic sexual fantasies on the table, then leave and call him the next day with a simple, unemotional message saying I've decided to end therapy.