Is God really just?

I am playing the devils advocate here, I have no official position or opinion as I tend to be more agnostic. I examine each model equally with an open mind. There are several models to consider.

If God had to make choices would mean there is a limit to God and he is not all powerful then, he becomes like man and has to reason and make decessions which would make it possible for god to make the wrong choice. If god can never make the wrong choice, then it is NOT a choice at all. In which case God had to create us, he had no choice. A lot of people don't feel comfortable with this model because they prefer a more "personal" god, one that is more human, thinks, has emotions, can get hurt or sad, angry, and happy, they assign a sex to HIM. etc. Also in this model there is NO free will, in fact interesting enough even in some atheist models, there is no free will.

I have to be careful what I say as I do not want to come off as promoting one way over another. That's not my aim at all.

Thank you,, that gives me a lot to think about. I was feeling like I was agnostic not too long ago myself, but had some "visitors" that had me convinced they have all the answers, and I mean ALL. I don't think any of us have all the pieces of the puzzle either.

first of all you shouldn't be ashamed AT ALL for questioning God fairness or even existence it's perfectly nature to question everything before you choose what to believe.
I don't think God is fair and that everything happens for reason, there's so much cruelty and injustice in the world to believe that someone/something is looking out on us and loving us (not just for my life, since so many lives are worse than mine and I have a lot of gd things in my life but it's about everything).

I think there is a lot wrong in the world because of people being too selfish. God taught that charity and loving kindness was the way to salvation. I think this is the most powerful message of all of religion, because that's all Jesus did, but no one wants to focus on that anymore.

I do not believe there is a higher power acting in our world. To believe that would be scary because of all the disease and misfortune etc. We truly have free will. To save humanity, we will need many heroes who go out to do real good for the world, not just themselves. If you really step back, the world is a pretty messed up and fragile place, with every country pointing nukes at the other.

I think being selfish is a normal instinct carried over to us from when we were cavemen and cavewomen. Just like anxiety is too. For the purpose of survival, to know when to fight or run. Many of those old instincts and characteristics we still have to some degree. As we continue to evolve they will eventually disappear and new ones will take place. Perhaps that's the new birth? who knows.

I've thought about this question a lot, and have come to the conclusion that sometimes we have to go through pain to obtain greater pleasure. Studying is painful, but the pride and security of getting good grades makes it worth it. My bipolar has left me completely without hope and nearly dead at times, but even it has had an overall positive effect on my life; I am more compassionate, I appreciate my health more, I have a greater desire to succeed and prove that I am more than just someone with MI. It is possible (not saying that it is true) that all suffering on earth is a temporary step on the road to greater pleasure.

This doesn't explain hell, though, since hell is supposedly eternal. Nothing good can come out of eternal torture, at least not for the person being tortured. This is why I can't believe in a God who judges people harshly and sends them to hell. Or I can believe in him, but I can't call him good and worship him. My God is loving and kind, seeks to save everyone from both suffering in this life and in the next.

Just a reminder to people with open minds. It does not have to be either Plan A or Plan B as our atheist and theist friends would have us think. It could be any one of hundreds of models besides the ones we usually consider. And it can even be none of the above. The point is look at other models, consider there could be other models. Think outside of the box! Look at the whole picture.

I'm the first to admit that I've no idea what's out there or what isn't, but I do believe that suffering is random, as is disease, etc. I don't think there is a plan for people to suddenly fall ill or disabled. I think like most things it just happens. I may very well be wrong, this has always just been the picture that makes the most sense to me. I've seen good people die young and viscous, cold horrid people live long and healthy. I guess that is where I fail to connect the dots.

not trying to debate or rock the boat, I respect every opinion. Let me throw some thing out there to consider. Makes no difference if you believe in god or not, this will still apply and even atheists can not dispute it or refute it because it doesn't need a god to be possible.

Cause and effect is the basis for every thing. You and I are here this moment me typing this message at this instance due to cause and effect. If one thing happened different prior to this perhaps I would not be typing this right now. This would explain why horrible things happen "randomly" I personally do not believe in randomness, in any atheist model or theist model, for me randomness simply can not work, there has to be some kind of order. I had a interesting discussion about this very thing with a atheist friend of mine who challenged my randomness opinion/theory. He said he could prove there is randomness, I said do it then. He used the coin toss which I easily refuted. We then went to more unprovable points like our universe and how some planets are gas balls others frozen balls, others melted chemicals, others nothing. He asked me if I considered that to be random results. Of course NOT! To ease his mind and make it easier for him to follow my reasoning, I said even randomness has order we just can't see it because it's very mathematically complicated to follow. We then went back to cause and effect some thing we can totally agree with.

What I want to show is there has to be a reason, there has to be a cause and effect, with or without god.

I don't know if this link is within forum guidelines. I'll preface it with a warning that it is an article with a discussion by Lutheran theologians about the concept of the relationship between God and human suffering. Please don't read if you do not want to be exposed to a theological discussion of God. I do not mean to offend (I am Lutheran and this is how I have always been taught. I realize it may not be the belief of other denominations or religions.) Again, moderators, I will understand if this is not within guidelines and needs deletion, but it is a reasonable Christian theological discussion of the concept of evil and suffering in the world which is the topic of this thread:

Living Lutheran

Unfortunately, this thread has evolved outside of the posting guidelines for this forum which states clearly, there is to be no religious discussion. We do have a number of social groups in which you can join to further discuss this topic or you can create your own social group.

Because of the topic evolving outside of the guidelines, this thread will now be closed.

Thank you for your understanding.

sabby