[seeker1950]

Today at the lunch table, while I was on duty supervising and doing my lunch "duty," I sat down beside our female principal, and a conversation started about going to heaven.
She was talking about the body, the "resurrection of the body," vs. going to heaven immediately. Many there chimed in with their opinions, and I couldn't believe what I was hearing from these "educated" people. They were all expressing literal beliefs in this matter, and even called over the janitor...a lay Pentacostal preacher, for his opinion. At some point, the female principal, looked at me directly, and asked my opinion, at which I said (feebly), "I don't belief in this."...or something to that effect, and quickly excused myself.
They were all discussing it like it's a FACT, and must have a literal conclusion.
In my opinion...who can know???
Patty

[(JD)]

Since I don't think that is a rhetorical question, but even if it were others here seem to think that still evokes a reply, I will give my opinion.

The rapture is a biblical concept. Since you are not of the faith, it is quite understandable that you wouldn't understand.

You do, however, have an opinion which you posted here. I would hope that you would have the fortitude to discuss it with them, and get face to face reasoning.

It might help them if you inform them that you don't believe in absolute truth, as well, as I think that will allow them to understand your base of information. Most schools do not employ those not of like faith. I'm not sure what lead you to want to work there, but I hope it works out for you in the long run. TC!

[seeker1950]

The "rapture" is not in the Bible, Sky...
It was a concept developed much more recently.
Show me where it is!
Who can know how we move beyond our physical bodies?
Patty

[(JD)]

Sorry, the forum is not for debate.

There is material aplenty online that will discuss this information. The concept has always been in the Bible, if that is a current theory, so be it.

Moving beyond our physical bodies is not limited to Christian beliefs and actions, though.

TC!

Sky

[seeker1950]

Actually, I AM "of the faith,"
and your labeling me as not suggests a judgment on your part.
Again...who can know?
I am uncomfortable with people stating how things turn out literally after we depart this life.
It seems ludicrous to me.
Patty

[bebop]

this verse describes the rapture. thought it might help


1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

[(JD)]

I said:

Since you are not of the faith

and

those not of like faith

I never said you were an unbeliever.

[seeker1950]

Bebop!
I appreciate your posting of this passage, and I am aware of it.
At the same time...the belief is that those who die go to heaven immediately...isn't that so?
Do we lay in the grave until the "shout" occurs? Do we all lay in the grave till this occurs? I believe not! I believe our essence passes to some other plane.
These people at my table were discussing that our "physical body" actually lies in state till the second coming.....whatever and whenever, and IF ever.
Patty

[bebop]

I do believe when we die our spirits/souls go to Heaven right then if we are born again christians. I know some catholics that believe in pergatory. I don't.

may I ask if you don't believe that we go to Heaven when we die as most christians believe what your faith is? just curious about that. nothing bad about it just wondering.

[SeptemberMorn]

Seeker, no, believers don't go to Heaven immediately and neither to unbelievers go to Hell or purgatory.

If you remember the theif that hung with Jesus and repented, to him Jesus said "you will be in Paradise with me this day."

No one goes to Hell or Heaven until the Judgement Day.

BTW, "The Rapture" is NOT in the Bible. That name for the second coming of Christ is rather new.

[bebop]

for me I believe paradise is Heaven.

[(JD)]

http://www.jvim.com/pt/1996/96003.html For more info on the "rapture."

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Did you know that Jesus wasn't the first person to be "raptured" out of this earth? In fact, when the Rapture occurs, it will be the fourth one documented in the Bible. The first was Enoch in Genesis 5:24: And Enoch walked with God; and he was not; for God took him. In Hebrews 11:5, Paul adds, that Enoch was translated by faith so that he should not see death. He was "raptured" - caught up in the twinkling of an eye, without dying. The second documented "rapture" is Elijah in II Kings 2:11. Elijah was caught up by a whirlwind into heaven. He, too, never saw death, foreshadowing what we believers will experience on the day the Lord catches us up in the clouds. Then, of course, Jesus was "raptured" away in Acts 1:9: "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."

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Not only did the ancient Jewish rabbis teach this six-day theory, but so did the church during the first 300 years of Christendom. The church leaders based their belief on II Peter 3:8: "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." St. Victorinus, the bishop of Petah, wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation in 270 AD. He said he saw another great and wonderful sign - "Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the indignation of God. And these shall be in the last time when the church shall have gone out of the midst." In other words, St. Victorinus was talking about the Rapture! This teaching is not a present day innovation but a doctrinal statement dating back 17 centuries to St. Victorinus and 20 centuries to Jesus and Paul.

In the 16th century there were those expressing assurance of the Rapture. Hugh Latimer, burned at the stake for his faith in 1555, said: "It may come in my days, old as I am, or in my children's days, the saints shall be taken up to meet Christ in the air and so shall come down with him again." Joseph Medde, the great 16th century literalist understood I Thessalonians 4:13-18 to teach the catching up of the saints and even used the word "rapture." So this is not some new idea.

However, understand this: The Rapture is not taught in Matthew, Mark and Luke. You can find it twice in the Gospel of John. Any other time you are reading about Christ's return in the gospels, it is not referring to the Rapture. Instead, these are references to the second phase of Christ's return - when He physically comes back to earth to rule over it after a seven-year Tribulation period and it's called, in theological circles, "the Revelation" or the revealing of Christ upon earth.

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John 14:1-3: "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." This is not His coming to the earth. This is the point at which He receives us unto Himself at the great Rapture - the snatching away - to be with Him in heaven as the seven years of torment occur on earth. The second reference is in John 11:25,26. I quoted this passage for years but didn't really understand it. Christ said: "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

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It's a fact that God always spares His own from judgment. When the horrendous worldwide flood came in Noah's day, Noah told those who were prepared to COME INTO the ark, Genesis 7:7. When the judgment fell on Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19:14, the angels told Lot and his family to COME OUT of the city. Notice this trilogy: In Noah's day, it was COME IN. In Lot's day it was COME OUT. In our day, it will be COME UP, Revelation 4:1.

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[bebop]

Rapture" is derived from the Latin verb: 'rapere', of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," ['to carry off' - or 'catch up']).

A Dictionary meaning for Rapture says: ' The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven '.

So when we mention the Rapture, we are not saying the actual word is in the bible, but what it means is, the removing or taking away of the Christian believers just before the seven year tribulation begins

[(JD)]

Exactly: Greek harpazo "to snatch or catch away"

[rul]http://www.biblebell.org/proph/rapture1.html[/url]

In the Vulgate Bible, the Greek word HARPAZO in 1 Thes 4.17 was translated into the Latin word RAPIEMUR. It is from rapiemur that we get the word Rapture.

[Grace03]

Hi Everyone!

I am finding/found the discussion on the "Rapture" fascinating.

In a biblical/spiritual context there are so many interpretations of this...I wasn't aware of so many different understandings of the Rapture,

This is a very interesting topic. I plan to drop by regularly.
Just for the record: I was raised as an orthodox Roman Catholic..and i am always open to other religions views.

Sincerely,
Grace 03

[(JD)]

Hi Grace. The belief of the rapture is not contrary to your Catholic views...as it was the Patron Saint Jerome, priest and doctor of the church, who translated the Septuagint into Latin (The Latin Vulgate.)

For me, the rapture represents the Blessed Hope. That hope being I will not have to suffer the tribulation. My salvation is not a hope, but secure in Christ.

[SeptemberMorn]

A very old and wise Dr in Theology had a series of sermons, which I attended, on the book of Revelations. It was from him that I learned that no human is in Heaven or Hell yet since there has been no Final Judgement.

[seeker1950]

I believe we have soul, or "essence" which departs the body when we die, not lying in the ground till the Second Coming. I also think Revelations was written when it was believed the Second Coming was at hand, for early Christions, not thousands of years later, in the year 2007.
The term "Rapture" was developed by a preacher in the 1800's by a Presbyterian minister who formed his own Pentecostal "sect," not during the canonical formation of the church.
It's okay whatever one chooses to believe about this. I think it's an interesting topic and interesting to see others' opinions and responses.
Patty

[SeptemberMorn]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
If you remember the theif that hung with Jesus and repented, to him Jesus said "you will be in Paradise with me this day."

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[seeker1950]

I'm not really understanding the point of this last quote and post by you, September. Maybe you can elaborate.

[SeptemberMorn]

My quote above is mine in response to this statement of yours.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I believe we have soul, or "essence" which departs the body when we die, not lying in the ground till the Second Coming.

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Of course our souls don't stay in the ground with our body.

And "the Second Coming" or "the Rapture" is even "more at hand" than it was 2000 years ago.

"Come quickly, Lord!"

[(JD)]

Actually, the Second Coming is different than the Rapture, which occurs first. Nothing in Scripture/prophecy has to occur before the Rapture does. Everything was in place once Israel became a nation (1948) and shortly thereafter. That MORE of prophecy has been fulfilled since that time, only adds to the belief, for many of us, that truly these are the end times.

[I think it's noteworthy to mention that all 3 of the major religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam believe that we are in the last days, end times etc and that their leader (Messiah, Christ, Muhammad successor) will return soon. Rather ironic, don't you think?)

[seeker1950]

I posted about this topic originally as a result of hearing my coworkers talk about it like it's literal fact.
I found it a bit disconcerting to hear them talking that way.
I don't believe in this at all, but realize from the posts here that some of you do! I respect this, but wonder what is the point of looking toward the end time?
I suppose one could say it's prophecy fulfilled when mankind does itself in with war and nuclear destruction. Or...one could say it's a fulfillment of prophecy when our planet self-destructs due to the pollution and climate change. At this point, I would be more likely to attribute it to man's greed and aggression than an act of God.
Also...what about those people who are cremated...are they resurrected?
Patty

[Perna]

"All the evidence of Scripture in the Old and New Testaments indicates that each of us will be reunited with our own individual body. The prophet Job looked forward to the day when, “In my own flesh I shall see God . . . my eyes shall behold Him” (Job 19:26-27). St. Paul reminds us that, “This perishable nature must put on the imperishable” (I Corinthians 15:53).

"This stands to reason. It is inconceivable that at the resurrection we would not be essentially the same persons we have been during our mortal lives on earth. As persons, we possess our own body and soul. During the temporary separation of soul from body, each still belongs to each of us as distinct human beings. When our bodies are reunited with our souls, they will be our bodies, not someone else’s. They will be our bodies and not some new creation that never existed before.

"All of this is consistent with the whole tenor of divine revelation. It is the individual person, each with his own unique body united with his own unique soul who will rise on the last day to receive the just recompense for his individual human conduct, in body and soul, during his mortal stay on earth."

Interesting arguments from here, Patty: http://www.therealpresence.org/essen...reed/acc12.htm

Hey, if He can change water into wine, why not "reconstitute" one's physical body/essence? It could happen :-) Jesus showed himself to Thomas who didn't believe either? Wasn't just a "ghost."

[seeker1950]

I believe we will have "new bodies," as Paul says, not our earthly bodies, which have been ravaged by age and illness.
patty