Does God love us as much...

maybe it is that you feel loved and you feel more loveable when you are having a good time of it.

when you are having a bad time of it, however, then it is hard to feel loveable and hence it is harder to believe that one is loved.

state dependent memory etc etc etc...

i do agree with septembermorn that the best thing to do with ones suffering is to try and gain more empathy for others suffering, however.

i guess that is the sense that i make out of it as well.

the fact that i have suffered... not being wanted... not being loved... has resulted in my being more sensitive to other people feeling that way and it has also resulted in my understanding a little of how it is that i can help them.

i don't think that i needed to suffer in order to obtain this insight. i do think that people who haven't suffered so are also able to obtain this insight.

it might well be that it is harder for those who haven't suffered... but then in a sense it is harder for those who have suffered. suffering tends to result in one narrowing ones attention on ones own suffering and pain to the extent that the needs / desires / wishes etc of other people aren't able to be attended to. hurting people tend to lash out as hurting animals do.

why do i think people suffer?????

because people fail to use the cognitive capacity (empathy etc) that they do have. because of their hurts / suffering and their resulting ambitions etc.

dennett says something about how the planet has evolved its own nervous system (us - human beings). we are far seeing sentinals able to see harm from afar (a looming meteorite, global warming) with the cognitive capacity to do something about it. we can protect the earth.

we can also be far seeing sentinals for each other able to see the harm of slavery and racism and opression and natural disaster etc and do something about it. do something about it. we can protect and nurture each other.

or... we can continue to act our our own pathology / hurts of course. over and over and over...

i hope that we will progress towards a more peaceful / humane / nurturing society. i like to think that cultural evolution is heading in that direction.

but then cultural evolution is also responsible for such things as high additive / preservative diets and nuclear weapons and gun lobby groups and the like.

sigh.

No, it doesn't absolve us from responsibility! Those children in third world countries and even our own are the responsibilities of their PARENTS! Yes, God "visit the iniquities of the parents into the third and fourth generation." It's not the kids that are at fault and it's not God that's at fault. It's the people before them that are responsible for the way these kids suffer.

We all have to suffer the consequences of our actions in one way or the other, whether we believe in God or not!

I can't pretend to know the mind of God or His reasons for what He allows, but perhaps His mercy is in the fact that these children don't suffer for very long.

> Those children in third world countries and even our own are the responsibilities of their PARENTS!

ah, yes of course. the parents who are HIV positive. the parents who are dying of malnutrition. the parents who feed their children contamminated water because the companies got the medics to tell the parents that formula (mixed with water) was more nutritious for their infants than breast milk (hence their mothers supply of breast milk dried up).

how about the orphans in the massive orphanages in Russia? who is responsible for them?

> Yes, God "visit the iniquities of the parents into the third and fourth generation."

so it is because of original sin after all that some children are born unwanted, unloved, with HIV etc? because of their parents and grandparents and great grandparents and great great grandparents?

> It's not the kids that are at fault and it's not God that's at fault.

but god made it such that these kids are born with HIV and that they are born with parents who are either unable (because of poverty) or unwilling (because of their own situation in life) to help them.

and the kids are born such that they have the sin of their ancestors bestowed upon them?

a tiny newborn baby...

contamminated with the sin of its ancestors...

no wonder people were unwilling to adopt for so long. who wants to adopt a child with such sin inside of it...

No, God DID NOT do this things! Humanity did it to themselves.

Alexandra, you'll never understand because you don't want to. I'm done explaining things to you. I'm sorry.

so we have several explanations of suffering:

- god allows people to suffer in order to strengthen their faith.

- god allows people to suffer as punishment for their ancestors.

so in the cases where peoples faith isn't strengthened (when children suffer, for example, or when people suffer who haven't heard of christianity / Jesus / Christ etc) then they are being punished for the sins of their ancestors.

how is it fair for me to be punished for the sins of my ancestors? i didn't choose to be born to my particular family and i didn't have any role whatsoever in their sin. i don't see how it is fair for God to punish me for their sins anymore than it would be fair for God to punish you for my sins. why didn't he make the world such that each person was responsible for their own sin?

how is it fair for someone to suffer in order to strengthen their faith? if God could have made the world however he liked why didn't he make it such that peoples faith could be strengthened without such suffering as the holocaust or certain kinds of natural disasters or children who die of malnutrition or HIV?

> Alexandra, you'll never understand because you don't want to.

please be charitable.
i am trying to understand things.

i am wary of pseudo explanations that look like explanations yet only shuffle the problem back one step without really advancing the explanation, however...

making judgmental statements about a poster means that God has chosen some to pronounce these words? others are just heatherns, i guess, because they really are trying to consider their life, as it is, not as it could be...........

are the unwanted babies that are born into dysfunctional families here because God wants them to be stronger? does incest, violence, abuse, torture and even death make them stronger? in the "eternal" life that everyone says they go to? "they're in a better place now"

trying to project onto others, in my heart, isn't Godlike. it's dictorial and "unchristian".

Alex, i agree completely with you. xoxox pat

I think that part of "being tested" is to see what we will do about others' suffering also, both around us and in the world. It does not in any way absolve us of responsibility.

But, yes, overcoming challenges does make us stronger, just like the chick has to struggle to make it out of the egg (and have you ever watched a batch of chickens trying to hatch? It can be sad, as some of the chicks struggle so hard and for so long, and they don't all make it. It is so tempting to help them, but if you help them they die because they need that struggle to develop their strength). Or also like butterflies have to struggle to get out of the coccoon.

I would be concerned about anyone who feels that someone deserves to suffer, or who thinks that it is okay for them to turn a blind eye to suffering, because the test is what we do about things like that, and how we help each other. But if you have an eternal perspective, even those who suffer greatly in this life do grow from it, and will be rewarded for what they have done in their situations. And you don't have to be Christian in order to experience growth.

It isn't okay with me that children in third world countries suffer as they do. We as the rest of the world should be doing more to help them, and I believe that we are accountable for what we do or don't do to help others, and for what we do that contributes to the suffering of others. But in the end (most likely not during this life), I do believe that those children will be rewarded, like Job was, and all will be well with them. This life is such a small fraction of our existance. It's the time for us to discover who we are when we are challenged. When we can see forever, it won't seem like very long at all.

This is the way I look at it and, trust me, I've looked at it alot. It's hard to be a survivor of the types of abuse I survived and not wonder about these things, and at times curse these things.

I do have a belief in God. I don't adhere to every demand of one certain religion. I never have. I feel directed to live my life according to the plan for *me* and feel we're all instructed differently in that respect.

This is my belief in trying to understand things like abuses suffered, or even why in the world my good and precious 19 yr. old daughter and her son are struggling so...

I think life is just life. It's going to throw us abuse, sorrow, upset, hard times, etc. It's also going to bring us people to love and who love us, opportunity, laughter, etc. We have to live it...minute by minute. Why? I'm not one to answer that, but I FIRMLY believe it's for reason.

Had I not suffered, I would not be an advocate for our children and emotionally ill...helping many so far if by nothing more than understanding or as much as calling CPS or housing a child with love.

If my daughter hadn't gone through the time she's going through now, she may have possibly never had children and could've been permanently damaged or worse. So, yes, it's rough but is the rough really that rough in comparison to the what if?

I don't understand why our innocents die, and even suffer before that death. I'll never understand that, but in watching how there is almost always a reason for things in my life, I can hope that there is a reason...possibly to spare further anguish in life? I just don't know.

I do know that I have a higher power I call God who is my soft place to fall on, my blanket when I'm cold, the big shoulders when I need to cry, and the thick skin when I need to rage. I can see that power working in my life when I call myself a survivor, when I see my daughter continuing to maintain knowing the potential outcomes, etc.

We can go through life blaming. I've been there...blamed my father, my mother, my brother, my God. Sometimes there's just really no one to blame, though. Sometimes it's just "life" and it's ours to manage with our skills, beliefs, knowledge and work.

Often, after a great deal of healing, I've made the statement, "I look back and it looks like some Stephen King novel, carefully constructed chapter by chapter for the maximum "horror", building steadily with each character set. Why? Now I can say, "I know why..." I wouldn't be who I am, maintaining all I maintain, helping those I can, understanding most everything a person could say, having sympathy and empathy to show true care. It formed me? Yes. To a degree, absolutely. It's what we do with the form...

Answers? No, I don't have alot. Hopes, yeah, I have loads because of my belief.

A pastor, to whom I was once raging said to me, "Kim, I don't have the answers. I'm sorry. I can say that you help many with your spirit of compassion. Had you not gone through that, would you have that gift? It's a hard gift to own but one of the most blessed for those you touch or seek you out." I've never forgotten that, and now work my life's calling as I understand it.

I can't begin to understand the answers for another, but some have been shown to me, in my understanding, beginning with my form created from what once was only seen as ugly. I think it's an individual road we must travel, with whatever belief we choose to embrace, or not...

Belief and spirituality are highly individualized. I respect another's while hoping they respect mine. That doesn't mean any other will understand completely because it's *mine*, not shared in some respects.

KD

((KD))

Alexandra

I struggle with it as well sometimes. It seems the only people interested in helping those truly in need are people who are out for something themselves - be it religious conversion or to boost their corporate name. They are not viewed as people, only pawns to be used for political gain.

I don't view their suffering as punishment or a test of faith to them. I view it as a test of faith to US - to see just how much we "love our neighbors." Will we feed and comfort those in need, or will we turn our backs? Will we "turn the other cheek" when our neighbor strikes, or will we strike back with a vengeance?

That story of Job always troubled me a bit because it ends with "he got back everything and then some." He didn't know he'd get it back, so I think it's a little misleading to Christians - regardless of faith, our things and loved ones don't always come back to us.

I know of some faithful Christians in New Orleans who will never get their homes, land and loved ones back. Many claimed they are saved and all things are possible through Jesus. Yet, when they were stranded on their rooftops and on that bridge, they were screaming for people to save them. Go figure, huh?

I disagree with you about empathy. I believe you empathize only because you have suffered yourself - you know what it feels like. I don't think those who haven't "been there, done that" can truly empathize.

As a kid I used to view my mother as weak and pathetic because she was always sick and hated life - attempted suicide often. The docs told us she was a hypochondriac, and told us to ignore he "attention-seeking behavior." She didn't look that sick to me - nothing a little attitude adjustment couldn't fix.

Turns out we were ALL wrong about her, even the professionals - she was suffering from familial amyloidosis, but docs hadn't discovered that type yet. I was diagnosed 5 years after she died, and I often think about how I treated her back then. She told me how much pain she was in, but I never truly understood what she was going through until I felt the pain myself. Now I admire her strength and courage, lol.

i agree,,, but i dont know how much choice God has in this... i mean if he stopped all the suffering like this, noone would have free will right?
idk, i am not particularily religious, but i agree with you alexandria,,,,
take care all
self

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> Alexandra, you'll never understand because you don't want to.

please be charitable.
i am trying to understand things.

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I feel that I have been charitable. So many others have, too. Your "trying to understand things" always seems so argumentative to me, though. So much so that if feels like we're all wasting our time trying to get you to understand one simple aspect of a question. When an explanation is given, something is always thrown into the mix for which there is really no one answer. Faith, the Bible and Christianity is a very personal thing. What works for me, may not work for you.

The whole thing works for me because I've accepted it on FAITH. I've been angry at God and at one point denied His existance. I don't believe in guardian angels because I didn't have one when I really needed one. The faithless part of me, the sceptic, the angry part can still get angry because I wasn't protected from what I went through.

On the other hand, most of the time, I know that I wouldn't be who I am today had I not gone through every bit of it. I've tried and tested the verse that says "God works everything for good to those that love Him." It's true. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." I've tested Him on that and that is also true. I could go on and on but it would make this a book rather than a post.

The quotes that follow are things I've tested and found to be true:

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But, yes, overcoming challenges does make us stronger, just like the chick has to struggle to make it out of the egg (and have you ever watched a batch of chickens trying to hatch? It can be sad, as some of the chicks struggle so hard and for so long, and they don't all make it. It is so tempting to help them, but if you help them they die because they need that struggle to develop their strength). Or also like butterflies have to struggle to get out of the coccoon.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

God has proven this to be true for me.

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It isn't okay with me that children in third world countries suffer as they do. We as the rest of the world should be doing more to help them, and I believe that we are accountable for what we do or don't do to help others, and for what we do that contributes to the suffering of others.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

"Love your neighbor as you love yourself"

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I feel directed to live my life according to the plan for *me* and feel we're all instructed differently in that respect.

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I think it's an individual road we must travel,...

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Again, God's plan for each individual is different... according to our strengths and weaknesses.

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I do know that I have a higher power I call God who is my soft place to fall on, my blanket when I'm cold, the big shoulders when I need to cry, and the thick skin when I need to rage. I can see that power working in my life when I call myself a survivor, ...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I've seen that power working in my life when I was trying to raise two children on $120 a month child support and a part time job. When I was up against it, I would pray, God, in Jesus name, if anyone owes me any money, right about now would be a great time to get paid back. Invariably, there would be a check in my mail

Nine yrs ago I found myself almost homeless. I couldn't see a way of getting a little corner of my own. All my mind and spirit could muster was "GOD!!!" Three days later I had a tiny mobile home to move into that was totally mine.

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Sometimes it's just "life" and it's ours to manage with our skills, beliefs, knowledge and work.

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When we suffer and go through extended times of nothing but problems we ask "Why ME??" A better question would be "Why NOT me?" We're all in this life together. Sh* happens!

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I don't view their suffering as punishment or a test of faith to them. I view it as a test of faith to US - to see just how much we "love our neighbors." Will we feed and comfort those in need, or will we turn our backs? Will we "turn the other cheek" when our neighbor strikes, or will we strike back with a vengeance?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

> Your "trying to understand things" always seems so argumentative to me, though. So much so that if feels like we're all wasting our time trying to get you to understand one simple aspect of a question. When an explanation is given, something is always thrown into the mix for which there is really no one answer.

then why don't you just put me on ignore and leave others to deal with me? there are some other people (on the faith board even) who seem to appreciate what I have to say and who seem to appreciate the fact that i question in order to come to a deeper understanding.

i've said this over and over and over and over and over and over and over but just for the record i'll say it again:

IF YOU AREN'T ABLE TO TAKE SOMETHING POSITIVE FROM MY POSTS THEN JUST LEAVE THEM.

SIMPLY PUT ME ON IGNORE SO YOU AREN'T PLACED IN THAT POSITION.

I'd like to thank other people for their responses.

thanks.

From this moment on, please do not argue or debate in another's thread. Take it to PM or use ignore...it is something that can be used by *all* members.

Further argumentative or attacking posts will be removed.

Thanks,

KD

One more thing please...

Please consider others reading when posting takes on a personal feel and you post in that tone. It affects more than just the one you're making a personal response to.

It would be greatly appreciated if we all practice that.

KD

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when posting takes on a personal feel

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Then what is support if not personal??

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Then what is support if not personal??

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Sept,

I think we're splitting hairs here?

I think it's pretty obvious that I'm referring to the personal post that is involved in debate, argument, personal criticism/attack, generally unsupportive specifically to another member or set of members.

KD

Ditto!!

Has anyone heard songwriter Trish Short's new version of the "Chaplet of the Divine Mercy in Song"?

Orders:1-800-462-7426 www.the divinemercy.org

After listening to this DVD, CD, VHS....it pretty much answers this question regarding God's feelings for us. This gives me incredible peace. Don't know if this is allowed on the website..but it really does provide answers and PEACE. God bless!dottie

First to EJ yes God IS love thus he is contant and does not waiver with circumstance

Second I am very well versed on Job and maybe people could note that in the end Job has a BETTER relationship with God because he understood Gods wisdom and sovereignty

Last, FOR those of us who are christian Jesus clearly stated when asked that sickness and suffering was allowed but NOT due to someone's sins or their family's sin

Though I would like to add, if someone wants to understand more of what Christians and Jewish people believe they need to STUDY not just read the Bible and attend classes on it.

Also the world is messed up because of what we all have done and not done...How many in here can say they have been in the Peace Corps, or work in a food kitchen, or work extra to support some of those third world country children.....One can sit on the computer night and day complaining about the world or spend their time *working* to fix it. This has to do with my agreement if I understood Sept correctly ...My example would be; some kids are sick because they are exposed to second hand smoke. We mess up the air, and some smoke and wonder why GOD have them cancer....
This has little to do with Job minus the fact he too was upset with the state of his world and he was a good man....but.....after he LISTENED to God...he GOT IT...HE UNDERSTOOD ...one only needs to be still and listen. Job brought glory to God and proved man did not have to be paid to love him.

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This has to do with my agreement if I understood Sept correctly ...My example would be; some kids are sick because they are exposed to second hand smoke. We mess up the air, and some smoke and wonder why GOD have them cancer....

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Exactly!

Thank you, KD.

Jane, i apolgize for arguing in your thread. xoxox pat

EJ, you and I and others here have posted how we believe that God does love us even when we don't "feel" His love. We look at the earthly evidence with human eyes. There's no way to understand the mind of God fully. I can see how those who don't have a close relationship with God (i.e. daily/constant talking with Him, worshipping Him, sharing His love) can feel not only unloved, but doubt that God even exists.

I don't know what I would do, trying to go through all that I do, if I didn't have God, or the assurance that God was "in the mix." I used to sense His presence much stronger than I have since the injury.

But I SEE His handiwork in my life daily and I mean SEE His miracles for me and how He works things out all the time for me. Maybe it takes working at looking for His efforts in my life, that allows me to see them? When I avoid an accident because (HE) something has delayed me in driving, when I find a parking space at the door on the days I just cannot walk well, when there's an open cash register just as I need to check out... I attribute all of those things to God and His angels helping me.

God is love.

While I know this thread strayed a bit, I wanted to share that not only those who want to gain for themselves are the ones who help others. I know of many Christian organizations that spend 5% or less of their donations on administrative upkeep and salaries. You can always check their financial sheet and see how much goes to their salaries before you donate. The Billy Graham Evangelistic Assoc, Samaritan's Purse, and the Salvation Army all do wonderful works in the world without raking in big bucks for themselves. If you can't go, give, is my thought. Any kind of helping in the community can show others His love, too. That's the Great Commandment, As you go through life, share the gospel of Christ.

"Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases" Psalm 115:3

God is in control of everything; there is not one maverick molecule in all of creation. He is sovereign.