[alchemy63]

I thought this could make an interesting discussion. I apologize in advance if this post is out of guidelines. I thought this was an in interesting article that argues for the case that God exists. As an energy that takes many forms. No disrespect to anyone's beliefs intended. This is in support of, rather than denial of, God's existence.

" God has no beginning and no end. So does energy: It was there at the time universe exploded and it continues to be there. One could argue that energy and God have been around since creation and will perhaps end with the world as we know it.

Energy is all pervasive, just as is God. There is no place in the universe where energy is absent. Energy may be of very high intensity, as in the case of stars like our sun. It may be of low intensity, as in the case of inert beings like rocks. Make no mistake, rocks have energy, but it is bottled up inside them, released when you break them. Energy is also very low in outer space. But it is all pervasive."

Defining the concept of God as energy - Freethought Nation

[Michelea]

Thanks for this, interesting article.

My personal belief is that God and science are one and the same (and I was a lover of math and science in school).

Just to throw a curve in, there is newer theory much different than the big bang theory. "The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein's theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once."

No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning

[Out There]

Thanks , even Stephen Hawking changes his theories and they include God sometimes !

[Thunder Bow]

The universe does not have a beginning or end. Linear time does not exist. Time is more like sphere. No beginning, no up or down. Infinite number of points.

[alchemy63]

Thanks to each of you. It means so much to me to have this place, to find you people, to have these thoughts, and have someone to share them with.

I feel inside myself that each of you who've responded are people who 'get it', and so I start my post this morning with a feeling of gratitude that people like you in the world exist, to help me not feel so lost, bewildered and alone, and I feel, at the same time, a great sadness, for so many ' not knowing', who search in every corner, in every cranny, to find this proof of God and Gods' love, never really seeing it completely, or comprehending it totally, when the proof of God is always standing right before our eyes, out in the open, in every molecule, every manifestation of physical reality, and full and complete in every thought and emotion we have, if only we allow ourselves to be open to it.

What struck me about your post Michelea is how the new science is postulating that the universe 'was' even before our current understanding that it 'began' starting with the big bang. That isn't impossible for me to wrap my head around. In my vision, it would be a space where matter collected first, before there was an ignition of that matter. I enjoy the exercise of travelling back in 'time' to what happened before the moment of origin we've all accepted as the beginning of the beginning. 'Time', to me, must be as Thunder Bow described it. It doesn't really exist, it's only a point on a scale we use to demarc certain events as being separate from the action of other events in the scale. In that way of understanding, this means that matter collected, ignited, expanded, then re-collected, ignited and expanded, over and over in a never ending cycle of continuous explosions. It means that, as science proves, energy is never lost, only recycled.

Did you read the comments at the end of the article Out There? I began to and then was interrupted and haven't gone back yet to finish. It was interesting the conversation that went back and forth between the author and one reader. It was kind of cute, if that's the word I mean, to see that, even amongst the great and educated teachers of esoterics, ordinary and normal emotions come into play in the discussions. It seemed to be a back and forth between what scientists have theorized and spiritual leaders have attempted to define. One quote, in the comments, particularly caught my attention:

" When Jung was asked whether he believed in God he replied, “I know. I don’t have to believe; I know.” "

Thunder Bow, I always appreciate your input. Our personal beliefs are not so very far apart and I've often noticed overlaps. I very much like your view on time and spheres and points. To me, even 'points' do not exist, there are merely positions on the arc of time where, for a fraction of our awareness, our energy rests at a place in consciousness. I know your belief system includes the element of energy as an an expansively powerful force.

[Thunder Bow]

As an Medicine Man, I pray to all there is, not to a singular entity. You seem to be saying God is not a singular entity, but God is all there is. The Universe.

[alchemy63]

Yes, I think that pretty much sums it up. I think, for total comprehension, it's to understand what you've just stated, that God, or, 'Spirit' if you prefer, is all there is. Its in all there is. It is the energy that is in all there is.

That brings us to the place of being humans. That we are part of this 'all'. It is through our senses: touch, smell, sight, emotion, etc., that we can experience the all. As humans, we have our own energies. The degree that we can sense the presence of Gods' energy is to the degree that we allow or open ourselves to it. When we have opened just a little bit, we can be like a spigot, or, as some have said, a fountain of this energy, where that energy flows through us, is a part of us. Our spigot/fountain can be opened full stream, or only a little.

[Thunder Bow]

I always have an spiritual connection to Wan Kan Tanka. (All there is) the great mystery.

[alchemy63]

That sounds like a fine thing to be doing with your time Thunder Bow.

I was thinking about this some more, about energy streams, and how, invisible to our eyes, they are around us, flow through us, affect us, emotionally, depending upon our degree of sensitivity or how open we are to them.

Think about it. Is there anyone you come in contact with who, when you first notice them, you feel a chemical, electrical, energized response to? Maybe it's an old lover, or freind, your pet, or, even someone you've had unpleasant relationships with.

Do you feel a 'charge' of some kind pass through? Sometimes it lasts only a moment, other times, the 'charge', the emotion stays with you. It can last a moment, it can last weeks, months, even years.

As I think about this, I'm making myself aware of the energies around me, what emotions they create in me, and, I'm thinking about the ways I have of managing these energies.

Some, I want to feel, hold onto, nurture, encourage, and strengthen. Some, I'd like not to pass through me. I'd prefer they go around me, out into the nether, where they de-energize themselves, not becoming a part of my existence.

In this way, I can focus better, on the things I need to do, want to do, and not be distracted by things, or energies, that work against a healthier spirit.

[Thunder Bow]

Today I just got back from Spirit Mountain. Camped there for 3 nights. This morning I woke up to a beautiful sunrise, stopped at the Casino on the way home for breakfast. What more can an Indian ask for. While I was up there Hawks and Owls were with me. The smaller birds checked me and my shield out. Lizards basked in the autum sun. I watched the sun and moon rise and set. I did my prayers with my sweet grass and eagle feathers. The desert breeze refreshed me. I felt very refreshed, and I feel very strong after Spirit Mountain. I feel a spiritual joy in me today.

[alchemy63]

Ha! Here's a funny one for you. I'm looking over the Navajo brand name of the 15 function multi tool with a heavy duty nylon case manufactured in China and I'm wondering about the spiritual energy that went into making it. ����

[Thunder Bow]

What is the brand name? What is it?

[alchemy63]

The brand name is Navajo. Its a 15 function multi tool. The kind you buy, sits in a case, attached to your belt, so when you're working on some small project, you have 15 tools in one. I bet the people, whose hands made the tool, had a spiritual energy. Even if it was 100% manufactured by machine, I bet people built the machine, and they had spiritual energy. And, even if the machine, was built by a machine, a human designed the machine. I bet they had a spiritual energy, and if they didnt, maybe their boss did. Energy is everywhere. Is it humans that make it spiritual? I'm going to guess not. I'm going to say the spiritual energy exists, everywhere, but humans have the ability to perceive it.

[Thunder Bow]

The brand name is not related to my people, no more than Jeep Cherokee is related to the Cherokee People. But as you say, Energy is everywhere.

[alchemy63]

I made a mistake Thunder Bow. I, in no way, intended to inauthenticate the beauty of the natural products created by the beautiful and natural Navajo people. I admire their work very very much.

Navajo is not the brand name of this product. Navajo is the distributer, which, if you follow me, is equally, possibly more, spiritually significant. Depends on how you see things.

[Thunder Bow]

You mean we made the product?

[alchemy63]

Well, we can say Navahos' make things. Its all spiritual. There's a spritual connection between Navajos' and the spirit of the product.

[Theseus]

Originally Posted by Thunder Bow

You seem to be saying God is not a singular entity, but God is all there is. The Universe.

An ancient concept. We call it Brahman, the ground of all being. We say there is nothing but Brahman, sarvam khalvidam brahma, Sanskrit for "all this is Brahman". We are also Brahman, aham brahmaasmi, "I am Brahman", meaning we are one with each other, the universe and all that exists. No differences in essence, only in appearance.

[Open Eyes]

I AM, I am everywhere, I am in you.

[Acorn Oaktree]

Thanks for posting this thread alchemy63!

The article you talked about in your original post reminds me a lot of Kurt Vonnegut's book Cat's Cradle. Have you read it? It's an amazing read. I'm scared to re-read it because of my personal issues, but plan on re-reading it when I'm stable enough to do so!

Cheers!

[alchemy63]

Thank you Acorn. No, I haven't read Cat's Cradle but it sounds like one I might be interested in. In what way did you find it connected to the original article? I'm one who sees the connections in all things so it doesn't surprise me there is a connection from one idea to another. It would be hard for me to verbally explain that, it's something that would be much more easily explained in a visual. One favorite story of mine is a Zen teaching that describes human consciousness to be similar to a flowing river. In the calm places the water eddies and flows, each drop connected in a single stream. At places in the river, where the water moves more rapidly, such as waterfalls, the water appears to separate, and that is how we feel we are each individual droplets of life, individual energies, separate from others around us, but, that is an illusion; when the water reaches the bottom of the waterfall, it again collects and gathers together, in a single stream, making it's way, sometimes gently, sometimes with speeded up energy, to a great ocean, where all the waters, of all streams, are again joined together. From there, it rises into the atmosphere, where it becomes rain, and begins the whole cycle over again.

[TimTheEnchanter]

As soon as you attempt to describe the Tao/Dao/God/Allah etc is becomes not that! Sure you can think of it as "energy"...why not but do not think you can conceptualize it. It is better that way. For some good vibes, please listen to the Tao from Alan Watts

[alchemy63]

Actually, for me, it has not become what it's not. It is still what it is.