[Maven]

I know I'm not the only freethinker (agnostic and skeptic, specifically) here, so I was wondering if others who are non-religious would name themselves. I'm just curious how many of us are freethinkers, although I know the majority of subscribers won't post if they are, because the majority of subscribers don't post. But, for those who will, raise your hand! Thanks!

[ECHOES]

I am non-religious.

I like to read some Buddhist writers such as Pema Chodron. Very peaceful. Call it spirituality if you want, it's just peaceful to me.

I am not vocal about it... to each his own and all... but I am in agreement with John Lennon's "Imagine".... "Imagine no religion..It's easy if you try..Nothing to kill or die for....." I think the world would be a better place with focus on humanity, celebrating life and peacefulness and one another without any religious influence. It's easy if you try.

Reality via non-religion is peaceful to me. This is it, this very moment is all we have.

[Maven]

Thanks for replying, ECHOES. I'm not keen on the term "spirituality" for me, but if it works for you, great.

[MyBestKids2]

I am actually still trying to find myself. I am not religious, but I want/need something to believe in. Maybe thats spiritual, I don't know.

[Maven]

Well, there's nothing wrong with wanting or needing something to believe in, but it's a misconception that atheists believe in nothing. They believe in themselves and others. Atheists are judged wrongly and with prejudice, just like other races, gays, and fat people are and have been. People make assumptions about atheists, assuming they have no morals (and the person making this assumption thinks only what s/he calls morals are morals), are evil, selfish, etc. It makes me angry. I have many good friends who are atheists who are kind, wonderful people.

I hope there is a God. I just don't believe in the God of the Bible (and, as far as I know, any other religious text). Man wrote the Bible, and Man colored the Bible according to the times it was written in and according to Man's views back then. I speak of the Bible and not other books, because I have limited knowledge of other books, although what I've read of the Koran doesn't make me like that God, either. That is not to mean I don't like Muslims or Christians; I have friends of both, and not everyone interprets their religion the same as others. I believe live and let live, but if someone pushes their beliefs on me, I push back.

I want there to be a God (meaning male, female, both and neither) and a wonderful afterlife, because, if this is all there is, I'm pissed. I don't deserve to have OCD and panic disorder, and others don't deserve their afflictions and, in many cases, the troubles they have, and I think most of us deserve a better life, or at least more chances for achieving what we desire in life (in other words, reincarnation is okay with me, but I still want a final, wonderful life, a Heaven, if you will). Some people find peace in no afterlife, when that's what they believe, and I understand that. But it doesn't give me peace--it pisses me off. I want a good life, and if I can't have it in this one, I want it in the next. Heck, even if this were a great life, I think I'd want another great life. But, as far as this life goes, I want a do-over!!! LOL!

I hear ya Maven. I guess I do consider my self spiritual in the sense that I like to tune into something deeper than my physical being.. to look at meaning, to understand my true self and how its connected to the world. I believe in God but have been doubting the bible lately. My "freethinking" makes me feel very bad sometimes.

[sunrise]

I am not religious, but I have a strong spiritual side. I am definitely a free thinker! I won't even register with a political party as I like to pick the best candidate regardless of their party orientation.

I am curious about that term. Maven, do you think that you have to be an agnostic and a skeptic in order to be a free thinker?

[LMo]

I relate best to "humanist". But I'm not really into categorizing myself.

Sunrise asked my question so I'm curious about your reply Maven. I consider myself a freethinker but i'm not an atheist. I believe in a higher power.... the Creator of all things. The God of all religions but mostly the God that sets a standard for me.... the God that is my model for love.

I believe I am a spiritual being having a human experience. I believe our time on earth is a kind of 'school' where we grow spiritually from experiencing love. I also believe I am never challenged with more in my life experience than I can handle or that I may need to have happen so that I may learn and grow from my life experience.

I can even go so far as to consider it a privelege, a gift to my spirit that I am challenged with my list of MI issues. It tells me I am stronger than I think and more able then I image sometimes. For me everything has a purpose in helping me be and do what I came to this earth to be and do. If MI is part of the package that provides me the times and places to grow spiritually and/or to show love to others then I accept that as my reality. I take it as a challenge to overcome, survive, cope, endure that I might be a witness, an example...cause for someone else to keep the hope alive.

Like you Maven I too often feel like I want a do-over. I entertain thoughts of anger, frustration even bitterness for my lot in life. I image an easier path and when things are really bad I cry for an easier journey. The magic comes when I'm in that pit I can feel my spirit pulling me out... giving me hope.... healing my pain in spite of myself.

Great thread Maven.... good to hear what others think about religion and spirituality.

[Maven]

Ok, first, let me give you some definitions of freethinkers. The term is a bit vague, because there's no clear, single definition of it, but what it does not mean is anyone who thinks freely and openly about any and all things. It actually refers more specifically to religion. Basically, it means you don't accept religion and God as most present them. It usually refers to non-religious people, but some definitions might include certain beliefs, but not specific or organized religions. Here's a few definitions, plus links for where I got them. The first one is my favorite, especially in that it applies to me.

http://www.answers.com/topic/freethinker
One who has rejected authority and dogma, especially in religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and speculation.

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=freethinker
deist, freethinker (a person who believes that God created the universe and then abandoned it)

http://www.fsu.edu/~activity/ufs/
free•think•er (fr'thng'kr): n. One who speculates, reflects, forms opinions, and willingly suspends final judgment on religious, spiritual, and philosophical positions independently of the authority of others.

http://www.uiowa.edu/~freethnk/mission.html
We define freethinker as one who forms opinions, particularly those about religion, on the basis of reason, independently of established beliefs.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/freethinker
one who forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; especially : one who doubts or denies religious dogma

Also, an article on freethought, on one of my favorite sites:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...0/lowder1.html

I don't believe "All gods are one." Certainly, no Christian should, according to their Bible, and as I recall, Muslims have a similar passage in the Q'uran that indicates they shouldn't accept that philosophy, either. The Bible says, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." A Commandment, no less, states that there are, indeed, other gods. And the descriptions of gods, even the main gods, of varying religions shows they are different.

Chocolatelover, I understand how you can see MI as a gift, but I do not. I have a more Deist belief, if there is a God. I believe things happen randomly, and God does not interfere. I won't elaborate further right now, though, because it's a long topic, and I have things to do tonight.

If you believe in a god, you're religious. You may not belong or subscribe to an organized religion, but religion is simply a belief in a deity or deities, so by simply believing in one or more, you're religious. However, you can identify as "non-religious," I think, when you doubt the existence of God, or possibly if you mean it in terms of organized religion.

sunrise, I appreciate what you're saying, and I'm independent when it comes to political parties, too, but that's not what freethinker refers to, really.

esthersvirtue, I'm sorry that you feel bad about freethinking. I feel wonderful about it. It's intelligent to expect strong evidence of something someone wants you to believe. As Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

[eskielover]

Guess I have a problem with the term freethinker myself. If one is a freethinker & chooses to be religious, then the freethinking has taken them to the understanding of religion as their choice of freethinking?????

The basis of my religious understanding is that I have complete freedom of choice. I am not contolled by any spiritual power to make my decisions because that isn't how the christian religion as I understand it works......I find the term freethinking to be very limiting & not very freethinking in inself.....yes, this is my opinion.
Debbie

Sounds to me that we have Freethinker with a capital F versus freethinker without the capital. One being a noun, one being a verb. One being itself an 'organized view' and the other a definition of a way of thinking. Free to think what we want.... what we come to believe. Least that's how the comments here are unfolding topic for me.

By your definition Maven I guess I am 'religious' because I do believe in the spirit world. One set in motion by the Great Spirit. The Creator of all that is extrodinary. The one power that started the 'Big Bang' or created the 'Garden of Eden' or gave Crow the power to generate life.... whatever version of creation one wishes to paint or has been taught to see. Any story of creation is founded in one's own cultural perspective. Be that Anglo, Asian, or like me Aboriginal/ Native North American... we bring our ancestry, our traditional teachings and understandings into the mix of any kind of 'religious thought'.

I would argue that as a Freethinker with a capital F one is equally 'religious'. Freethinking is a different doctrine but it is a doctrine just the same from what you have shared here. (Thanks for the links by the way.... I've only read the discriptions but will check out the sites when I have more time.)

As for Sagen.... I have extraordinary evidence and so did he.... he just choose not to process the information because he used the wrong tools. He lived in a world made up of only matter. No spirit so he only say half the story. I'm alive.... that's extraordinary itself given the number of times I've tried to end it..... and I see other miracles happen everyday. The miracles of nature healing herself. Of rivers returning to life for no 'apparent reason' or in 'impossible timelines' but I know it is because of the ceremonies my Elders performed on the banks of the river. I've seen the colours return to the rings of Spirit Lake after decades without. The colours returned when our Old People were allowed back on the land so that they could offered prayers and perform ceremonies to call upon the spirit world to restore the lake. I've seen healings that defy logic. I experience answered prayers and I diologue with the spirit world. I have been rescued by angels or spirit helpers on more than one occassion. I have all the evidence I or anyone would every need that there is a spirit world operating parallel, in sync and in collaboration with life on earth, from the earth.

I love these kinds of discussions..... they always seem to increase my faith and solidify my understanding. Like so much in life I often take for granted my faith and spiritual walk through life. Life without Spirit is like always living with half the glass empty. My cup overflows.

I suppose there is a part of me that always wonders if my beliefs are founded on reality or just another coping skill I've learned over the years. I mean, before my faith and my spiritual life was awakened I was pretty empty. When I opened myself up to the teachings of the holy books, to the teachings of my ancestors and I began to offer prayers and open up my spirit to connect to the Great Spirit things started to click into place for me. Empty holes in my head and in my heart were filled. Life's other dimensions were revealed to me and made accessable to me through faith and understanding. Acceptance and evidence.

It may all be a hoax or a bad joke or mass hypnosis or an effective coping mechanism... or it may be real... evidence suggests it is real more than it can prove it isn't. But then.... I always have enjoyed the social sciences far more than the physical sciences. Just like I have 100% peace when I am filled with spiritual thought while I struggle at 50% to operate from only my carnal knowledge.

Peace be with you all.....

Most of my beliefs center around the spirit world. I've experienced enough to have a firm grip upon the spirits as my foundation. I've grown up with people who shared some of the same beliefs and as I traveled throughout the reservations, I found more reason to believe. I have a higher power and it is always what is strongest in my conscience at the moment of experience.

I also believe that we are treated as we treat others and that being a human being carries a tremendous responsibilites towards all life.

I totally believe in the ceremonial teachings of the American Indians. And I practice those teachings at every chance I get.

I love what you said there pat.... " I also believe that we are treated as we treat others and that being a human being carries a tremendous responsibilites towards all life."

It is that belief that ensure I don't let myself get totally self-absorbed and forget my responsibilities to other life forms.
To caring for Mother Earth and all that draws life from Her gifts.

All my relations.....

[Maven]

eskie, freethinkers don't choose to be religious. By definition, they're not.

chocolatelover, there is no freethinker vs. Freethinker. There is a difference between freethinking and free thinking. What you're talking about is free thinking, about all things. Freethought itself is about thinking rationally, without spiritual or religious influence.

No, Freethinking (capitalized or not) is not a religion. Religion, by definition, is a belief in a God or deity (ies). Atheism is also not a religion.

I'm not going to get into an argument with you about evidence and proof of religion. I didn't start this thread for debate, which we're not supposed to do here. I wanted to know how many other freethinkers there are here. What you call evidence and miracles, I do not.

I'm not interested in a faith or spiritual discussion, so if you want to do that, please start another thread.

Pat, I believe we are sometimes treated the way we treat others. Sometimes, we get screwed, regardless.

[SeptemberMorn]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
eskielover said:
Guess I have a problem with the term freethinker myself. If one is a freethinker & chooses to be religious, then the freethinking has taken them to the understanding of religion as their choice of freethinking?????

The basis of my religious understanding is that I have complete freedom of choice. I am not contolled by any spiritual power to make my decisions because that isn't how the christian religion as I understand it works......I find the term freethinking to be very limiting & not very freethinking in inself.....yes, this is my opinion.
Debbie

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I completely agree with you, Debbie. "Free thinking," ... "free will," one in the same. No one or No thing made me choose my beliefs. *I* chose them because I have a free will or free thinking to do so.

[Maven]

No, you didn't. People don't choose their beliefs. Your experiences in life made you more apt to be convinced by certain things, and the things that convinced you determined your beliefs.

Then are you saying that certain life experiences make us choose vanilla over chocolate? Not to trivalize spirituality choices, but I believe that I made my choices after careful observation and consideration. I believe others did the same.

[nothemama8]

I was born into the Luthren faith, as a young child went to a pentacostal church, baptised in a Swedish Baptist church, now married and converted Catholic, yes it is by choice

Maven.... I don't think you are being very nice to me or to others who offer opinions counter to you. I shall leave you to your own thoughts cuz clearly you don't have much respect for mine. Too bad cuz I thought this was an interesting discussion. Guess I was wrong.

Bless you as you journey on to find others who share your views. I like to stick with folks who think like me too but I try to challenge myself to dialogue with anyone so that I can test my assumptions and stretch my understanding.

Be well......

[SeptemberMorn]

Maven, you can't say that. You haven't lived inside my head and you weren't there when I made my choice! SHEEESH! What nerve!

[Rapunzel]

The responses to this thread are more likely to lead to hard feelings than any productive discussion. If anyone feels that they meet Maven's definition of Freethinker, and would like to let her know, feel free to PM Maven.