the devil ***possible trigger??***

deleted this post since I may have went to far with it...sorry

im always a fan of the underdog..and yeah i do feel sorry for Lucifer in a sense..

but then...this whole "satanist" thing.. i mean.. i dont know much about it... but is it really as "evil" as its cracked up to be or is it just because its "satan-orientated" that it scares people?

are we alowed to talk about this? i'd like to learn more about it but Google only comes up with anti-satan or very pro-satan things. no real unbiase information..

we can talk about this right? in an open minded way? there's a trigger for SRA survivors so...

((((blah))))) (Gabriel) ... the mods monitor the forums, if the posts become negative or destructive, rest assured, the thread WILL disappear... but, it appears there is an attitude of respect and (for lack of a better word) tolerance..

you are curious... this is a good thing, despite what is said about the cat.... i enjoy this discussion also and hope it may continue myself...

Lucifer was his name when he was an angel of God. Once he decided to become as God and rebelled, and he was cast out of heaven by God, he was called Satan. Throughout the New Testament you will find Christ referring to him as Satan, as he is no longer an "angel of light" as the name Lucifer meant.

I do not think the battle was about love and hate, but about power and arrogance. Satan often wins battles on earth because this is his domain for the time being. The battle of Armaggedon is when he is finally put in his place by God.

I don't agree(though I know I dont have to) that Satan is at war/combat with god in any way..or else he would not have to asked permission to tempt Job...I feel he just serves a purpose..god knew he would be the way he was before he created him...so he had to have a purpose when he done it

or God is not all knowing....

there was no real battle in heaven..God just did not want Lucifer having any glory for himself .
God wants 24/7 glory for himself....that is supposed to be our purpose as well (glorify god 24/7)...other angles started to admire Lucifer.....Satan should be no challenge to God...and Armaggedon..well I'll stop

just in my opinions....not trying to debate...just thinking out loud

God takes credit for peace and calamity, in the bible with a qoute in Isaiah

i wonder if i get this right then... God made the Devil and everything, he knew how everything would go, still does know how its all gonna turn out and all thats taking place is getting from the point of beginnng to the point of (insert unknown)........

no known ending? in other words, are you saying the Devil and God will not battle it out? so the whole Armageddon thing is poppycock?

I'm not saying I even believe in the whole thing(armageddon/ Lucifer)...just that if it is taken literal...god controls the devil and knows all...I do believe in good and evil though

Armageddon,could be looked at many ways, even just another contrary thing in the bible..just my opinion

I guess I actually need to get a bible and start back reading so I can pinpoint stuff again...but it says the earth will never perish somewhere...so armageddon imo does not mean the end of the world..just to Satans control at that point of it...

it is contrary to say god has all the power and knows all...but has to actually battle anything...imo..he can just snap his fingers if he has them and end the world..from what it implys about his power....though not sure why it took 6 days to make the earth if this was the case(or even needed rest )..he could have just snaped his fingers and did it in a second...mabey he knew we need'd something to start time by...oh ya..even the indians with many gods could keep track of that.....

It gets really hard not to respond sometimes. I can see where you are coming from, I think, but I have to say it seems dangerous to me to think that God is as egocentric as the devil. I hope that nobody takes offense. I do believe that opposition was a necessary thing for us. But I also believe that God wants what is best for us, while Lucifer wanted to replace God and take all the glory for himself. My belief is that God wants us to strive to become as He is. God wants us to progress eternally, and never stop learning and growing and becoming. And He wants us to worship Him and remember Him because that is the path that we need to be on to return to Him.

I do believe that we fought a war in heaven. Satan proposed that he would have all of the power and would control us so that nobody would be lost, and we would all return. But the cost would have been terrible. He would have taken away our agency, and we would not have been able to progress. We would have all become his servants and never any more than that. Or we would have been like the animals, with no accountability for our choices. It is such a terrible plan because we have so much more potential, and all of our potential would have been denied us.

hmmmm well im pretty well rehearsed with about 3 different versions of the Lucifer-kicked-out-of-heaven story ( aka. the fallen angel )


..but does anyone know about actual modern-day "satanists"?

Gabriel perhaps i could tell you a little.

this may not be what the others believe, but it is my thoughts.

Lucifer was "kicked out" as you put it. whether or not he deserved it is something you can debate all you want.

i say that Lucifer simply realized things. realized what he was capable of. and used it. just as you or me will use our skills to our benefit.

i say that we also realize what we are capable of. and all thanks go to Lucifer for showing us.

that is a very simple sum of the way I see things. others will disagree.


Note: my host disagrees and calls me evil. i am the only one of us like this.


Regards,
Lucient.

rupunzel
I agree that god wants us to strive for good only...in his glory

but "we" fought a war in heaven....I dont understand....I just meant God should not have to battle anything with all his power

kinda like men already saw Jesus 1 time in the old testament...when a man/men were being burnt....spectators said .....something like ....who is that other person with them?..is that not the son of God ?..again I'd have to pinpoint to quote ..but its there

is that what you meant by we .......like those going to heaven were already there...like Jesus seen on earth before he was actually born...Satan wanted to control us before we were born/created?how did he know gods plan....how could he want control of somthing that did not exsist until after he became Satan...

could you tell me any more Lucient?

anyone else know anything?

thanks Lucient. [ your not "evil" by the way ]

I cant make this statment as fact..but for a long time I thought and still do kinda

that like in the cartoons where you see the characters conscious on there shoulders...they are twins but one is the devil and on is a angle

that that is a way to discribe him with "imagery"...he is inside us as bad & good and they are twins..in your conscious/subconscious

that is just crazy thinking though...I could give you tons of info on him but a simple google search will do the same

type in ( Lucifer music in heaven)

far as the bible gos I don't like parts that "ok" stuff like stoning,killing etc...people like you are trying to find info on

many women were torchred/killed after "King James" married Anne and probably after this, was the most brutal time in history (blood on his hands imo) for this type of killing ...of people
they thought were like... info you seek

IDK about satan wanting to control us before we were created... I don't personally believe that satan is just like God, God is ominipotent, omniscent, omnipresent and satan, well satan is not. So satan isn't all powerful, isn't all knowing and isn't all present like God. He just thinks he is maybe? Satan is certainly pathological. TC

By "we faught a war in heaven," I mean all of us. The host of heaven consists of all of God's children. We knew God's plan, and Jesus agreed to pay the price of justice for us so that we could return, because we knew that we couldn't be in God's presence being soiled by the mistakes that we would make in our mortality. We knew that Jesus was the only one who could live perfectly and atone for the rest of us. This was the Father's plan.

We were all free to choose though, and knowing that some would not choose the way that Jesus provided, and would be lost, some found that cost to be too terrible and were not willing to take that chance. Lucifer proposed his alternate plan, and those who wanted a sure thing (at the expense of agency and eternal progression) followed Lucifer.

God's plan was that we would have agency and could choose. Sure, He could have used his power to stop the rebellion of the third part of his children, but then He would have been denying their agency, and acting against the very thing that He stands for. He would have ceased to be God to act in that way. So we fought for which plan to choose. The third part that followed Lucifer would have no part in God's plan, and were cast out. It strikes me that they chose to leave. They will not be born into this world and will not receive physical bodies, but in spirit form they do have power to tempt us and try to lure us away.

If we have been born into this world, we were among the other two parts of God's children who chose God's plan. So "we" means all of us who live and have ever lived and will ever live on this earth. We retained our agency, and have the right to choose our actions and to believe how we will. We can choose and accept the way provided for us to return, or we can reject it.

I believe that all will have the opportunity to know the way, and to make that choice with full knowledge. I condemn none who have not been taught or do not know all of God's plan. I also believe that all of the religions of the world have truth in them, although some also have errors or corruptions of the truth, and many are missing some important truths. The difference between some Christian faiths and some other faiths may be a difference of which parts of the truth each possesses. We can all learn from each other.

These are my beliefs, that I feel impressed to share. I would love to share more, but I only want to share with those who want to hear. I don't want to impose my beliefs on anyone who is not interested. I understand that many of you may disagree with me, and I recognize that we all have agency and the right to choose.

hmmm..I hope you did not take what i said as
god is just like satan...I said mainy times maybe not in this thread that satan has no control..and has to ask gods permission in the bible to act...and god makes it clear in the bible he does make peace and create calamity

I have had the thought many times that god was just our consciousness
good and bad, if he creates and controls both ...but have never set any of my beliefs in stone
and my mind seems to change daily

Hmmm I believe the devil is evil and has reign over those who are not God's. Scripture says that he walks to and from in the earth seeking who he may devour. Anyone who has been in the trenches knows that satan surely has lots of power here on earth. He can possess those who follow him, and those who give themselves over to his devices. (He cannot possess a Christian, and the Holy Spirit indwells them, and we all know God is stronger than satan.) Anyone who has been in the presence of someone who is possessed knows the power that satan or his evil angels give the person...much more than humanly possible alone. It takes the blood of Christ, and believing in it and declaring it, to overpower this evil.

No, satan didn't go to God to ask permission as we think of it, but as much to taunt God saying that GOD is protecting Job and not allowing anything bad to happen to him, and if GOD didn't protect him and allowed ill to come on him (Job) that Job would curse God and not be faithful. God said do what you will but you cannot kill Job. That also tells me that satan can kill, unless God stops him. The earth is satan's domain, according to the scripture. God will return and orchestrate the great battle (yes, war) called Armaggedon, and defeat satan once and for all.

Even after 13 years in catholic school i cant get the grasp of why an all powerful, all knowing God would care if he was worshiped by a speck in the universe. It always seemed to me to make no sense and to be a human attribute, the need to worship rather than a divine one, the need to be worshipped.

It isn't for His own benefit that He wants us to worship Him. It is for ours.

yes rupnzel.."back and forth to and ect".. ya I read this before ...right before tempting Job in the meeting of Gods sons

I still take this meeting as Satan had to ask permission

but Gods claim to create calamity...to me is evidence enough to show his control of all..if the bible is the only truth
for men

just my opinion at this point in time...could change any minute though

something you said about God protecting Job

why not also protect the thousands upon thousands of other GOOD christans that have had unspeakable torture and horror brought down on them? Why don't he have to ask permission to do this to them...are you saying this type stuff only happens to those Satan can devour..and they are not good enough for Gods protection as well..
people who have probably lived as good a life as Job
innocent children even

it happens every day

not trying to debate this but I don't believe being a good christian..gives "ANY" protection from the horrors of earth..
it don't just happen to people that let Satan in their life

it happens to the good,bad and innocent..this is fact

the main thing I see most getting from becoming a christan is"solace"since this is usually what they are looking when they find Jesus.imo..but it dont protect them from predators,murder,rape,war,car crashes,plane crashes,burning buildings,cancer,heart disease,and a list of other terror/pain that could go on for many pages

though I know some may want to debate prayer can fix everything... it may just have a placebo effect in my opinion

I know allot won't agree and I am not even saying this is what I believe, and many will say their prayers were answered..I just hear some that seem so superfical that ones say are answered sometimes and wonder why all the tortcure and horror still go's on for so many good and innocent..........that have unanswered prayers

I know I am beating a dead horse since these are the same questions about prayer and becoming reborn that have been asked for hundereds maybe even thousands of years

so I am gonna try to find a different way to peace with God
other than facts,figures,rebirth and prayer alone..for now

kind Regards
Eddie

Eddie, bad things do happen to good people. Sometimes people do bad things to other people. Yes, God could step in and intervene, but just as in the war in heaven, God stands for agency, and would cease to be God were He to deny anyone's ability to choose their actions. However, sometimes people are miraculously protected, and we have examples of that here in the Angels thread. Sometimes people are miraculously cured of cancer and other diseases. Faith is often a factor in those miraculous cures. God does have power to heal.

We may not understand all of the things that happen in this world, let alone in heaven. My belief is that in the end all will be made right. People who suffer in this life will be rewarded after this life is over. All that was taken from Job was restored to him. We may not be able to comprehend what could compensate for some losses, but it will in the end be compensated.

This life is a temporary state, and is a small fraction of our eternal existance. Some experience mortality for centuries, and some for only minutes or seconds. Each receives what is necessary for them, for their progression.

rapunzel

I have researched more on Lucifer cast out at

www.bible-knowledge.com/war-in-heaven.html

talks mainly on the war to come led by St. Michael

and on lucifer cast out

www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/lucifer.html

can't find nothing yet on google about a war/battle in heaven
to cast him out the first time,and it all is left open to different comprehensions..but most seem to believe before man was ever created he was cast out but no war to do it, yet

I don't understand why Lucifer would actually think he could win a war if his destiny is predetermined, or why he dont have the chance to repent like us, unless god just created him to serve this purpose without choice in being created for this,or why he would then put him in his place,that he knew he was heading before he created him,I am not defending him at all but it seems unfair to create something knowing you'd punish it so harsh for serving the purpose it was created for, but in his case without chance to repent.

maybe this is why Einstein, wrote so much about similar reasoning for being a athiest...my half brother is a athiest and he is way smarter than I, who refuses to be one,lol
even though I have tried many times to just not believe

if anyone is interested in reading the war in heaven link at bible knowledge

not sure why the link don't go straight there since it is just as on google

but just click on #12 on the page it go's to "2nd coming of jesus" ,then go down to #8 "A war in heaven"