[GiraffeEars]

I've been reading the threads on this forum section going back a few months and the topic of hearing voices came up numerous times where individuals found this to be an issue to them. I can understand that it can be distressing but im curious if this is actually a problem? I'm wondering what is the difference between someone with schizophrenia hearing voices and a "normal" person hearing voices?

Please correct my if im wrong but it seems to me that our responses to these voices are actually the problem?

So for example deciding whether or not to eat a delicious chocolate cake. We may discuss to ourselves voice 1: "eaatttt ittttt! nom nom nom!" voice 2: "but what about diabetes?!" , voice 3: "it'll be fine! we did enough exercise this week!" etc.

But when we hear a voice saying "go kill yourself" we are shocked and think "whats wrong with me?" and so we get on meds and try to dissociate away from these "bad" thoughts.

What im curious about why not dialogue with these voices the same way as you would with others? Why not find out what it really wants to say? Maybe, for example, the voice could actually be your internalized mother or father who spanked (aka beat you) you or called you harmful names when you were a defenseless little boy/girl? Because at that age not having your parents approval = death.

Please let me know your thoughts.

hmmm, I am going to disagree with you. Simply beacause yes we all hear certain types of voices. There is a difference. I also hear voices talking in my head all day about this or that, or don't eat the cake, or exercise later, or gee, I look fat in these pants. That is not the same thing at all. I'm sorry I cannot explain it to you. Hallucinating voices is nothing like the voices you are talking about, and it is not just the content that is the difference.

Can I ask you to explain tho, the voices I hear coming from objects in the room? they are not telling me to do anything. They are commentating on my every move. Is this just normal? When I yell at them to stop, they get a laugh and continue. This isn't my mother or my father. Lots of us have dialogue with the voices, I prefer not too as they seem to only play off this interaction.

I think everyone here questions the normalacy of this all the time. When the voices and other visual, and tactlie hallucinations all group together for me, it makes it very difficult to function on a normal level, never mind my cognitive abilities that become so diminished.

I hope someone here can give you a better answer. Have you looked into the science behind hallucinations? I know there are not a lot of answers, the brain is malfunctioning that much is clear. For the most part I do not take meds for this, and I cope with it. When times are real bad tho, sorry I'd like to remain living and safe, and will take meds at that point.

I know this stuff maybe hard to understand, but so is diabetes, I wouldn't go on a diabetes forum and ask, well we all have blood sugar levels, so yours is a bit high/low, do you really need to take that insulin?

Sorry those are my thoughts.

[GiraffeEars]

Originally Posted by Anika

hmmm, I am going to disagree with you. Simply beacause yes we all hear certain types of voices. There is a difference. I also hear voices talking in my head all day about this or that, or don't eat the cake, or exercise later, or gee, I look fat in these pants. That is not the same thing at all. I'm sorry I cannot explain it to you. Hallucinating voices is nothing like the voices you are talking about, and it is not just the content that is the difference.

Can I ask you to explain tho, the voices I hear coming from objects in the room? they are not telling me to do anything. They are commentating on my every move. Is this just normal? When I yell at them to stop, they get a laugh and continue. This isn't my mother or my father. Lots of us have dialogue with the voices, I prefer not too as they seem to only play off this interaction.

I think everyone here questions the normalacy of this all the time. When the voices and other visual, and tactlie hallucinations all group together for me, it makes it very difficult to function on a normal level, never mind my cognitive abilities that become so diminished.

I hope someone here can give you a better answer. Have you looked into the science behind hallucinations? I know there are not a lot of answers, they brain is malfunctioning that much is clear. For the most part I do not take meds for this, and I cope with it. When times are real bad tho, sorry I'd like to remain living and safe, and will take meds at that point.

Thank you for your reply! I should have put a disclaimer in the op that I am no expert and that im actually a complete noob at this, even I disagree with myself most of the time

Ok so I read that you know the kind of voices that im talking about - the internal dialogue with yourself whether you should eat cake or not and that these voices are actually different to hallucinating voices. Thanks for clearing that up.

I can't explain why you hear voices coming objects in the room, but im wondering why not still dialogue with them even when they play off the interaction - sorry I don't know what you mean by play off do you mean they tease you? Ask them why they are teasing you? Tell them how they make you feel? Keep showing curiosity until you get to the fundamental root?

No I haven't looked into the science behind hallucinations much just what is on wikipedia but I have looked into a bit of the science behind child abuse [be it from emotional or physical] and how it can damage the brain and how therapy can actually physically heal it from Stefan Molyneuxs Bomb in the Brain series on youtube (i would post a link but im not allowed with so few posts).

[Oxidopamine]

There is some similarity in terms of the neural processing but there also are differences. To keep things simple, studies have often found the temporal lobe to be over-active and occipital lobe to be under-active. The similarity is for normal speech, the temporal lobe is activated and it is involved with sub-cortical structures for emotional processing, such as from the limbic system and Papez circuit. Speech acts as an auditory stimuli and these areas are part of auditory perception, however, in the case of auditory hallucinations, the auditory perception areas become hyper-active without any auditory stimuli. This is an incredible over-simplification though because other areas are also active.

The reason temporal lobes are often involved can be understood from a theoretical view. Damage to these areas can cause bizarre changes in behaviour, anything from becoming extremely devout to a certain religion that may not even exist to affecting auditory analysis to effecting emotional responses and so forth.

The basic neurochemical theory of schizophrenia and psychosis centers around the mesolimbic dopamine pathway. No neurochemical system acts in an isolated manner, so dysfunction of one causes dysfunction in others. At this level, there are many differences with auditory hallucinations and speech. This also explains why there are certain topics mentioned by the voices as executive function areas, such as the medial prefrontal cortex, is affected as it is part of the mesolimbic dopamine pathway. You cant truly find out what the voice is trying to say because further analysis uses many of the areas that are already dysfunctional and produce the auditory hallucinations. As it tries to make sense of what is said and interacts with you, both the voices and you draw from similar memory stores in formulating the responses. In a way, it's battling yourself.

There is still a lot more details but I'm not going to keep going as there are specific scientific journals dedicated to schizophrenia, countless books and the body of knowledge is too huge to post.

In 2009, there was a very popular study done. Unfortunately, this is only the abstract although I do have the full paper:
http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordj...35/3/549.short

This other study uses a neurobiological view to explain why many auditory hallucinations involve religious figures and meanings:

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs...98560601083118

[RwhoweR]

Is talking to oneself a sign of good mental health or lunacy? I have heard it both ways. I suppose if you are dialoging in a way that puts you in opposition or genuine disagreement with the other voice, that would be an indicator of a problem. I talk to my yellow lab all day long and could not live a day without sharing my thoughts out loud (some may keep them silent but still the same concept) but it helps me get rid of a lot of junk as well as enjoy the high points. If I start believing he is somehow disagreeing with me when I talk, I may have an issue. Then again, if I did have a voice who was telling me things I did not want to hear I would assume it was some nasty ghost that followed me home and I would tell it to "go to the light". I guess I just don't take well to anyone telling me what to do, even if it is in my own head. Stand strong! There is really only one true voice and that is yours. Just a theory of mine

[mgran]

If I dialogue with the voices things get worse. For example, if I'm walking back from work, and some voice starts swearing at me in French, and I reply to him, he jeers even louder, I end up shouting at it (in French) people look at me funny, and when I go into Sainsburies and try to buy my groceries I find I can't speak English anymore.

If I ignore it then, although it's annoying, it's not so horribly bad.

In the past I've really got messed up trying to speak to (real) people, because I'm in a jumble in my head... words get messed up between what they're saying, what I'm trying to think, what the real person is saying, how I'm trying to respond.

Talking to the voices leads me to sentences like this: "I'm sorry, pelicule is dividended, where's the ... hiyannima, I forgot... crap stick." All the while bright red, hyperventilating, sweating, shaking, and thinking I'm going to pass out.

This does not go down well when trying to pay for one's shopping. The lady at the till will never look at you the same again. (I may also add that in this state I can't figure out how much to pay, remember my pin number, or fill a shopping bag.) Fortunately I've never been dragged into hospital when in this state... I have no idea why. And it happens a lot at supermarkets. I imagine the stress of all those people.

If I ignore the voices then I don't get into an argument with them, and I tend not to dissolve into a puddle of inarticulate goo.

[RunningEagleRuns]

Originally Posted by GiraffeEars

I've been reading the threads on this forum section going back a few months and the topic of hearing voices came up numerous times where individuals found this to be an issue to them. I can understand that it can be distressing but im curious if this is actually a problem? I'm wondering what is the difference between someone with schizophrenia hearing voices and a "normal" person hearing voices?

Please correct my if im wrong but it seems to me that our responses to these voices are actually the problem?

So for example deciding whether or not to eat a delicious chocolate cake. We may discuss to ourselves voice 1: "eaatttt ittttt! nom nom nom!" voice 2: "but what about diabetes?!" , voice 3: "it'll be fine! we did enough exercise this week!" etc.

But when we hear a voice saying "go kill yourself" we are shocked and think "whats wrong with me?" and so we get on meds and try to dissociate away from these "bad" thoughts.

What im curious about why not dialogue with these voices the same way as you would with others? Why not find out what it really wants to say? Maybe, for example, the voice could actually be your internalized mother or father who spanked (aka beat you) you or called you harmful names when you were a defenseless little boy/girl? Because at that age not having your parents approval = death.

Please let me know your thoughts.

I've thought the voices were just me too. But the doctor doesn't agree. =(

[costello]

Hi GiraffeEars:

I don't hear voices. I think the internal dialogue you're taking about it different from what a voice hearer hears.

You might be interested in the work of Marius Romme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing...mme_and_Escher

In his research he's found that there is a significant subset of voice hearers who never become psychiatric patients - either because their voices don't distress them or because they learn their own way of coping.

[costello]

I noticed this statistic at the link I sent to GiraffeEars:

"70% of voice hearers reported that their voices had begun after a severe traumatic or intensely emotional event, such as an accident, divorce or bereavement, sexual or physical abuse, love affairs, or pregnancy. Romme et al. (1998) found that the onset of voice hearing amongst a 'patient' group was preceded by either a traumatic event or an event that activated the memory of an earlier trauma. There was a high association with abuse. These findings are being substantiated further in an on-going study with voice hearing amongst children."

[costello]

Originally Posted by RwhoweR

Is talking to oneself a sign of good mental health or lunacy? I have heard it both ways.

I don't think it necessarily means either.

I suppose if you are dialoging in a way that puts you in opposition or genuine disagreement with the other voice, that would be an indicator of a problem.

I don't have a psychiatric dx, and I often talk out loud to myself when I'm alone. Used to be if someone made me mad at work, for example, I might tell that person off while I'm driving home. I used to believe it helped me blow off steam, then I realized it just keeps the anger hotter.

Sometimes I explain something to a person I'm imagining is present. Like I'm teaching them. I think it helps me work through complex ideas and kind of consolidates them in my mind.

I talk to my yellow lab all day long and could not live a day without sharing my thoughts out loud (some may keep them silent but still the same concept) but it helps me get rid of a lot of junk as well as enjoy the high points. If I start believing he is somehow disagreeing with me when I talk, I may have an issue.

I talk to my dog and cats all the time. When I'm feeling silly I even give the dog a voice and pretend like she's talking back to me.

My dog never disagrees with me. She thinks I'm a genius. Well, she does think I ought to feed her steak more often.

[costello]

Originally Posted by RwhoweR

I talk to my yellow lab all day long and could not live a day without sharing my thoughts out loud (some may keep them silent but still the same concept) but it helps me get rid of a lot of junk as well as enjoy the high points.

Here's my favorite dog-human conversation:

Originally Posted by GiraffeEars

Thank you for your reply! I should have put a disclaimer in the op that I am no expert and that im actually a complete noob at this, even I disagree with myself most of the time

Ok so I read that you know the kind of voices that im talking about - the internal dialogue with yourself whether you should eat cake or not and that these voices are actually different to hallucinating voices. Thanks for clearing that up.

I can't explain why you hear voices coming objects in the room, but im wondering why not still dialogue with them even when they play off the interaction - sorry I don't know what you mean by play off do you mean they tease you? Ask them why they are teasing you? Tell them how they make you feel? Keep showing curiosity until you get to the fundamental root?

No I haven't looked into the science behind hallucinations much just what is on wikipedia but I have looked into a bit of the science behind child abuse [be it from emotional or physical] and how it can damage the brain and how therapy can actually physically heal it from Stefan Molyneuxs Bomb in the Brain series on youtube (i would post a link but im not allowed with so few posts).

Ahh sorry thanks for clarifying that. I didn't mean to be defensive, But the choice for me to take meds is still not an easy choice. I do not have schizophrenia, I have Bipolar I questionably schizoaffective. I started having hallucinations at around age 10, I don't have a history of severe childhood abuse. But I do come from a family littered with mental illness.

I don't like to interact with the voices or with visual hallucinations because it only seems to make things worse, and scarier for myself. When I interact with them it's almost like handing over the power to remain rational. I could become a danger to myself or someone else if I totally loose touch with reality. I do realize that the voices, or visual even tactile hallucinations are actually my mind (me). But when you re right in the middle of it and you are also delusional, that doesn't really matter anymore. And I am only speaking for myself here.

I have had a lot of therapy, but haha it as not cured me, I wish it were the case. With Bipolar anyways there is a Bipolar Kindling model, this could be of some explanation as to why things can get worse with time and age despite therapy + medication therapy.

[xlz1968]

What is your mother tongue? French or English? In my "hallucinations", I heard all in English even though my mother tongue is Chinese.

[mgran]

I learned Irish and English concurrently. I speak several other languages as well, lived and worked in France, Holland, Belgium and Germany.

[mgran]

Originally Posted by costello

Here's my favorite dog-human conversation:

That's hiliariously cruel!

[costello]

Originally Posted by mgran

That's hiliariously cruel!

I can watch that video over and over and it makes me laugh every time.

I just watched it for the first time without the sound. The man who made the video never even met the dog. Someone sent him the video and he added the voices. I wish I were so creative as to take that mundane little video and add that hilarious dialogue.

[mgran]

I like the mystical kitty one. I think it's the posh accent that does it.

[costello]

Originally Posted by mgran

I like the mystical kitty one. I think it's the posh accent that does it.

Yeah. That one's cute too. I hadn't looked at any of his other talking animal videos until today. To me the man teasing the dog about food is still the best. I love the way he fits what he's saying to the dog's ear movements. And "You gotta be kidding me." "Nope. Not kidding."

And underlying it all is the suspicion that food really is all dogs ever think about.

[GiraffeEars]

Thanks for the replies guys, im reflecting on what you said and also on some of my thoughts to them so I will get back to each of them soon but first im really curious about something if you can help me understand, some of you said that your thoughts and words become jumbled but for me your posts on here are really coherent and make a lot of sense - why do you think this is?

[mgran]

Because I take my meds!

[mgran]

Interestingly enough, I found a book that I wrote a few years ago. At the time I thought it was a great book. Rereading it I was really shocked by the fact that my grammar kept switching tenses, sentences ran on, changed topic half way through, and what I had thought of as "poetic" was really incomprehensible mumbo jumbo. It was very upsetting for me. I didn't finish reading my "novel of the century". I might have the courage to do so later... anyway, I saved it, for future reference, so I know how collapsed I am off meds.

[Oxidopamine]

Originally Posted by RwhoweR

Is talking to oneself a sign of good mental health or lunacy? I have heard it both ways.

I suppose it would depend on two main factors. First, why are you talking to yourself? I often talk to myself when I'm studying, doing a paper and even during a test (although then I whisper to myself). I find it helps me to hear what I'm writing down so I can take a third-person perspective and see if what I'm writing down makes sense. It also helps me to arrange my thoughts.

Second, how you are talking to yourself? For example, if you're shouting at yourself, it still doesn't mean you've fallen in the deep end, it simply means you're angry. Although if you start arguing out-loud with yourself from multiple perspectives as though it were a bunch of people in one body, that may (and I stress may) be an indicator of instability. Again, it all depends what/how it is being said and why it's being said.

Originally Posted by GiraffeEars

Thanks for the replies guys, im reflecting on what you said and also on some of my thoughts to them so I will get back to each of them soon but first im really curious about something if you can help me understand, some of you said that your thoughts and words become jumbled but for me your posts on here are really coherent and make a lot of sense - why do you think this is?

To best answer the question, recall the diabetes analogy Anika posted. Someone who has diabetes will not always have low or high blood sugar. Similarly, with schizophrenia, the psychosis isn't constantly there and even when it is there, some people are able to ignore it.

In 2006, Dr. O'Reilly published an impressive paper that really helps to explain your question. I apologize ahead of time that the images cannot be expanded so I'll walk you through it (if you have access to the article, then you can see the images in a larger size). I'm focusing on Figures 1 and 2 because they explain each other, Figure 3 is a bit too complex for these purposes.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/31...1.figures-only

Part A of Figure 2 is in the condition called, "gate closed". Look up to Figure 1a and you'll see this is a condition where attention is not given to anything in particular in one's environment. As an analogy, you're sitting down sipping some coffee, listening to the birds outside and relaxing.

Part B of Figure 2 is in the conditioned called, "gate open". As shown in Figure 1b, attention is focused on a specific thing in the environment. As an analogy, you're now focusing on a particular chirp from a bird to figure out what kind of bird it is.

When it refers to the "gate", it means the flow of dopamine (DA), so when it is open, there is more flow than when it is closed.

This all ties into psychosis because when the gate is open and there is excessive DA flow, the gate cannot be closed. So, there is attention given but it is without any focus, so everything in the environment is now being detected and all of it is being processed, causing an overload. Once anti-psychotic medications are administered, they reduce the DA flow so the gate is forcefully closed.

I hope I explained it clearly because it is a very complex process that Dr. O'Reilly tried to simplify. Don't worry about the various neuroanatomical parts in Figures 1 and 2, they're not necessary for my simplification.