[costello]

Has anyone tried metacognitive therapy? There are free materials you can use here: http://www.uke.de/kliniken/psychiatr...izophrenia_MCT

I'd like to try this with my son.

Metacognitive means thinking about thinking. It addresses several thinking errors that are more prevalent amongst those dx'd with sz. http://www.uke.de/kliniken/psychiatr...izophrenia_MCT

Some of these errors are ones my son has. In fact he had these thinking errors long before he ever showed any signs of mental illness, especially jumping to conclusions and attribution problems. He's had problems with these since he was a little boy. I just thought he was "illogical." I used to find it very frustrating when he'd, for example, get one little tiny fact and think he understood the whole situation. Even when more facts came in that disproved his initial impression, he'd cling to his first conclusion. (That's another thinking error common in sz, btw, "bias against disconfirmatory evidence.")

It used to make me nuts. Now I see this "illogical" thinking was probably a forewarning of his later problems. I wonder if addressing this when he was a small boy might have helped him avoid some of his current problems.

Anyway we're going to work through the modules and see if it helps.

[costello]

There seem to be five thinking errors addressed by this program:

1. Attribution - Blaming and Taking Credit

2. Jumping To Conclusions

3. Changing Beliefs

4. To Empathize

5. Memory

All of these address thinking errors more prevalent in people dx'd with psychosis than in the general population. They all exist in the general population to some extent. And not all psychotic people have them. I've seen all of them to some extent in my son except possibly empathy. (Empathy has to do with being able to identify other people's feelings.)

[costello]

The first module has to do with attribution. The researchers explain it this way: "Patients with schizophrenia often cast blame for negative events onto other people (e.g. neighbours) and/or institutions (e.g. the secret service) rather than spreading blame over multiple sources."

My son does this. In the past he's blamed me for things which were outside of my control - or which I couldn't anticipate at all - which made me angry. Maybe now that I can understand it as an unproductive thinking style, I can be calmer when he does it and help him reason through it.

We'll do the first module after he gets out of bed this morning. It's really meant to be done in a group, but we'll just have to do the best we can with the two of us.

[mgran]

Originally Posted by costello

There seem to be five thinking errors addressed by this program:

1. Attribution - Blaming and Taking Credit

2. Jumping To Conclusions

3. Changing Beliefs

4. To Empathize

5. Memory

All of these address thinking errors more prevalent in people dx'd with psychosis than in the general population. They all exist in the general population to some extent. And not all psychotic people have them. I've seen all of them to some extent in my son except possibly empathy. (Empathy has to do with being able to identify other people's feelings.)

The first two I definitely have, I'm afraid I'm not quite sure about the other three, not had a chance to read the material properly.

Memory I have issues with, because I feel like I remember everything... the problem is I can't remember what really happened, and what I only thought happened. Even on meds I'm having trouble dividing up "real" and "dreamt" incidents. It makes it quite confusing talking to someone, and they stare at you blankly, only to realise that you dreamt the entire argument, or whatever.

My son also has problems with the first two, but perhaps he only learned that from me.

[mgran]

Costello, can I use this thread to do the modules with you and your son? I'll post my input, and you let me know how you two are getting on? Thanks for the information.

[costello]

Originally Posted by mgran

Memory I have issues with, because I feel like I remember everything... the problem is I can't remember what really happened, and what I only thought happened. Even on meds I'm having trouble dividing up "real" and "dreamt" incidents. It makes it quite confusing talking to someone, and they stare at you blankly, only to realise that you dreamt the entire argument, or whatever.

Interesting. You describe the problem as the researchers see it. Here's what they write:

"Memory problems are a core problem in schizophrenia [25], which in turn comprise both functional outcome [48] and adherence [13]. In addition, schizophrenia patients display reduced memory vividness: often they only vaguely remember autobiographical episodes. There is increasing evidence for overconfidence in memories [49–51]. Many studies revealed that this overconfidence was especially present for incorrect or false memories [51],

while confidence for correct responses was often found to be lower than that of controls (for a review see [51]). Again, overconfidence in errors is not restricted to delusional themes (e.g. alien abduction) and thus likely represents a risk factor rather than a consequence of paranoid symptoms. Overconfidence in errors, along with enhanced errorproneness, can result in knowledge corruption: a large part of what the patient holds as fact is actually incorrect. Recent evidence has accumulated that this pattern of overconfidence also manifests itself in other cognitive domains [52]."

My son definitely has issues with memory. He'll have vivid memories of things that never happened. I'm just not sure how you treat that problem. Maybe just making him aware that it's an issue he should be alert to.

[costello]

Originally Posted by mgran

Costello, can I use this thread to do the modules with you and your son? I'll post my input, and you let me know how you two are getting on? Thanks for the information.

I'd love it. I wish we could do it as a group somehow.

[KUREHA]

I have never heard of that - it's interesting.

(((((Kureha)))))....huggs. ((((Costello)))) ....(((Mgran))))....hugs for all....Wolfy

[mgran]

I wonder if we could all get into chat at some point?

Let's work out time zones...

Costello, what you describe about memory would certainly explain a lot of problems I've had in the past with my family. My brother and father in particular would get very upset with me, because I would describe incidents that never happened. In fact, for a long time they tried to tease me out of it, by calling me "false memory..(name)"

All that did was make me feel that either, a) they were the ones with the memory problem, they were repressing things, b) that they were actively against me, and trying to belittle me and do me down. The second response was very damaging, because I stopped trusting them, and became quite paranoid, to the extent that I barely spoke to my brother in years. Now that he's become aware of my diagnoses he's been extremely supportive, and it helps for him to know that I wasn't deliberately lying or exagerating for effect. But yes, memory issues did cause a huge problem in our relationship.

It doesn't help that I actually do have a very good memory for certain things. The areas of memory in which I score highly (mainly linguistics) have given me false confidence in memories that I feel I have "experienced", but which never actually happened. (For example, I remember going to the pictures to watch Pirates of the Caribbean with my mother... when I was ill I refused to accept the evidence to the contrary... ie, that my mother had died years earlier.)

Now that I'm aware it's a problem I'm more alert to it... I still get it wrong though at times. It's frustrating.

[costello]

I'm in Central Standard Time - middle of the U.S.

I think skype would work for this purpose. At least I know that one of my coworkers used it when she was working on her masters degree, and she was assigned to work with a group on a project.

About false memories, just this evening one came up. My son and I were talking about a man who tricked him out of his car last year. His neighbor and one of her friends could see he was pretty confused. They got him drunk and tricked him into signing the title to his car over to the friend.

A few weeks later we, my son and I, were driving on the highway to his apartment. We noticed the car being driven and we followed it to a gas station where we confronted the man. The man ran, jumped in the car, and drove away quickly, injuring my leg in the process.

This evening we were discussing this incident, and my son asked, "What did you think when I pulled the knife?" I told him he hadn't pulled a knife. He said that when I went inside the gas station, he pulled a knife. I told him I hadn't gone inside the gas station, we were together the whole time, and there was no knife.

He said, "Oh, well, I did punch him." Again, I had to tell him that he hadn't punched the man. No one had punched anyone.

It must be awful to be so sure something happened when it hadn't.

[mgran]

I'm sure that some of my memories are like this... it can be quite humiliating if someone not on your side picks up on it. Just awful at work.

I think I am central too.Texas.Near Dallas.Let us know mgran.Tc .

[costello]

Isn't the whole of the UK in the same time zone? I think it's 6 to 8 hours later than Central.

[costello]

Originally Posted by mgran

I'm sure that some of my memories are like this... it can be quite humiliating if someone not on your side picks up on it. Just awful at work.

It must be. And even when you trust the other person, well, their memories might be faulty too. My son is so sure he punched that guy with the car. Maybe I just didn't see it? But I saw where my son was standing, and he wasn't close enough to hit him. His arms would have to be 8 feet long. The point is that you can't even necessarily check your impressions against what others remember.

This reminds me of a book I was reading about a girl who has sz. She remembers beating the family dog to death when she was a teen. She remembers it in detail -the object she used, the way the dog cried out, etc. The problem is the rest of the family tell her they only had one dog when she was young, and they didn't have it during the time period she remembers and they didn't have a dog of the description she remembers.

[mgran]

I think sometimes it's wishfulfillment, or fear. For example, your son was obviously angry (and very rightly so) with the man he remembers punching. He probably wished he could punch him, but had the sense not to. However, the wish was stronger in his mind than what actually happened, so it overlaid the real event.

I remember beating up a guy who tried to rape me. Thing is, there's no real evidence that it actually happened. But I remember it in detail. In this case, I don't know what happened. I do know I've beaten people up in the past (mainly police men, or when I was at school I'd sometimes snap and whale on the bullies.) My arrest record proves that I did indeed "assault pc" on several occasions. My father and brother remember the school incidents. But other times in my later life are less easy to confirm. My son does confirm me chasing two would be robbers from our house at one o clock in the morning, so it's something I could have done... but at least some of my memories are wonky, or wishfulfillment.

There's also the terror memories, when you think you did something dreadful (the thing you fear most) and they can take quite some getting over.

Your son's memory on this occasion shows how he felt, not what he did. I like that he wanted to avenge and protect you both.

Oh, and the UK is in one timezone, and I can do Skype.

[costello]

There's a 6 hour difference. So 10 am here is 4 pm in London.

I work week days - leave the house before 7 am and get home about 6:30 pm. I can bring my son to work with me and use my break to do the MCT lesson. He already comes to work with me on Mondays.

Or we can plan on weekends. I spend much of the day on Sundays with my mother. We meet her at 11 or 12 and leave her at about 5.

Saturdays are usually good for me.

Let me know when's good for you, mgran and wolfsong.

I suppose once a week is sufficient. I have this temptation to rush through the whole thing, but it would probably be best to work through a module then use the week to process and work on what the module covers.

There are two cycles in American English and two in British English. We could probably plan on working through all four cycles. That way the whole thing would be covered four times and would reinforce the topics.

What do you think?

[mgran]

Seems like a good idea...

From half three to half five on a Saturday we're out, other than that I could do Saturdays. Mondays I'm in from three pm, my son is home half three, can entertain himself, wind down from school for an hour, so maybe after four on a Monday.

I don't know how to sync our time.I am in the United States....Texas is the state,and Dallas is the nearest major city.So if you view the time I posted this ....for you....it is currently 7:28am for myself

[costello]

You and I are in the same time zone, wolfsong. So 8 am our time is 2 pm where mgran is.

Yay!

[mgran]

Originally Posted by costello

You and I are in the same time zone, wolfsong. So 8 am our time is 2 pm where mgran is.

Well, how about 8 or 9 am your time, two or three my time? That would be perfect.

Okeee....but,lets set it up in advance,and do we need structure?I'm not very good at being in charge....kind of a go with the flow type.*grinz*

[costello]

Are we talking about Saturday? If so, that's good for me. 8 am CST/2 pm mgran's time?

[mgran]

That would be perfect for me. )))