Higher threshold of pain in sz?

Does anyone here dx'd with sz have a higher than normal pain threshold? I've heard of this before. Not sure if it applies to my son or not.

It seems to fit in well with the hypothesis that sz has something to so with lipid metabolism since prostaglandins - which transmit pain messages - are made from fatty acids. If you were low on the necessary fatty acid, you might not make the prostaglandin needed to send the pain message?

lol holy crap. thats me. for many things. idk if its sz or not.

if i do something thats percieved as painful by most this is how it will go. say i hit my head:

*BOOM*
Some person: OW! WOW! Are you ok????!
Me: Hahaha! Yea thanks.
Some person: omg.........

I go both ways. In some ways I can handle a lot of pain. Sometimes intentional injury hurts less than accidental injury. I guess its that intentional injury I know is going to happen and I just don't know when unintentional injury is going to happen. But if its an accidental injury it hurts. So in other ways I am hypersensitive to pain. I was worse when I was a child though. I have this nasty bruise and it doesn't even hurt. I have scratches all over my body that I don't even feel. I am also a violent sleeper and when I obviously hurt myself when I am sleeping I don't get up. The main thing that hurts is the fibromyalgia but in some ways I am used to that as well.

I don't think that I particularly have a higher pain threshold in general. However, I sometimes get a huge push of adrenaline while I'm "paranoid" or "psychotic." Under those circumstances I not only don't feel pain, but have greatly increased strength as well. But I don't think this is from so-called schizophrenia or any mental illness. It's just from adrenaline. The same way people in other crisis can lift cars off loved ones, or save their children from a burning building, not feeling the pain of torn muscles flames until afterwards.

Last winter (2010-2011) my son was deep in psychosis and living at home. My furnace has broken down, and I can't afford to replace it. So my house was really, really cold. I'm gone at work most of the day, so it wasn't too much of a problem for me, but my son was home most of the time.

That whole winter he only mentioned the cold once - and that was just a passing comment, "It's cold in here." (Truly it was freezing - in the low 30's for a long time.) I can't decide if he wasn't feeling the cold for some physiological reason, or if he was so involved in his own inner world that the "real" world wasn't impinging on his consciousness.

This past winter he wasn't in psychosis, and he seemed surprised to learn that the furnace didn't work. It's like it never penetrated all last winter that we didn't have a working furnace.

Is that a pain threshold thing? I don't know.

The only other incident I can think of that would point to a high pain threshold for my son was something that happened when he was about 3 or 4. He was walking with his class in preschool when he tripped and fell and hit his head on the sidewalk, opening up a large gash on his forehead. He apparently didn't notice, because he got up and kept walking without saying anything. It wasn't until several minutes later that another child noticed he had a bleeding wound on his face and pointed it out to the teacher. He said he hadn't realized he was hurt. It seemed odd at the time, but nothing like that ever happened again, so ... <shrug>

I'm extremely insensitive to the cold, but the heat makes me feel ****ing miserable. But for the most part, my pain threshhold is very minimal. One time I got hit square in the nose (while it was pierced) by an incoming soccer ball from all the way across a field & continued running to make my goal while everyone was distracted by my nonchalance. I used to regularly harm myself intentionally not due to emotional pain, but because it was a sensation. I think I have a sensory processing disorder because sometimes my sense of touch can be too sensitive & really distracting, as well as taste/smell/sound/sight. But I hear that some people with schizophrenia/psychotic disorders have a predisposition to interpreting things differently, so maybe it works on a pain level as well? And if the dopamine theory is true for the brain, which causes psychosis, then couldn't it be true for the body which would make the interpretation of pain less severe?

Maybe, but a more interesting idea - to me - has to do with faulty lipid metabolism. As I said above, prostaglandins are made from arachidonic acid. People with sz tend to be deficient in AA which is one of the most prevalent fats in the brain. Apparently this deficiency may screw up the movement of biochemicals through the brain - which might implicate dopamine? I'm explaining it badly - probably because I only have a tenuous grasp of the subject.

Other interesting factoids I've run across recently (and I hope I'm not misrespresenting them; I run across these things in passing but don't write them down, so I'm relying on my memory here): People dx'd with sz are less likely to get rheumatoid arthritis which involves prostaglandins. People dx'd with sz are far more likely to be smokers, but they're less likely to get lung cancer - somehow related to AA.

Huh! That's interesting!! I also found an article where some people with sz have been treated in Japan by metacycline, which evidently implies that some sort of inflammatory condition could be to blame in some cases.

I heard about the anti-cancer properties of sz. In another thread, I'm going to post this really awesome video I found about the cognitive biology of sz on the Stanford University youtube channel. It's lengthy, but I really enjoyed hearing it. I'm a science geek & want to get a degree in cognitive neuroscience, so that might explain that bit!!

I remember you saying that before. I envy you - being young and just starting out. I was fascinated by the brain when I was a teenager. Actually I have been my whole life. I wish I'd gone that route in my career. Lately I've been kicking myself for not making more of an effort in high school chemistry. I didn't like the teacher, and that was it for me! Sheesh! The decisions we make when we're 17 haunt us for life. Now I want to understand this crap so I can help my son. Anyway I'm reading elementary chemistry books.

Here's something else: people dx'd with sz tend to not get the niacin flush. They either don't get it or it's less intense. Also related to arachidonic acid and prostaglandin.

Oh it's stressful as hell... Problems with my financial aid paperwork, having to stay on the phone with those morons. I just keep fighting through it because I know it will be worth it once I graduate-- At nearly ****ing 30 years old!! Hahaha. XD
When I learn some really interesting stuff, though, I think I'll start a blog! And I'll make sure to let you & the forum know when I do. I mean, for the first two years it's just going to be catching up to speed on math & taking basic courses. But after that, I'll get to do the really fun research!

You have all kinds of interesting information! I think you may be underestimating yourself. Sure, you don't understand the intricacies about it but you understand a great deal... I like to see people who pursue knowledge through their lives. Not all hope for the human race is lost!
Hmmm about the niacin. I truthfully need to learn more about dietary science... I enjoy eating healthy & stuff, especially because I love cooking, but I don't fully understand how everything forms a big picture. Biology is more challenging for me than non-organic chemistry or physics. Hahaaa

Well, I was diagnosed (and as far as I know, remain diagnosed) with schizophrenia. I reject the diagnosis, but I certainly have florid hallucinations most of the time. I do also have a very high pain threshold, though I had never correlated the two. Very interesting!

I'm not well-versed in science enough to understand all the implications of your lipids theory; do you perhaps have any ideas where a layperson like me could read more?

Oh, I'm so mad, I want to weep! I had written a long answer to this and was almost finished when the browser suddenly closed, and I lost the whole thing! I'll start again, but I'm going to answer in chunks posting each chunk as I go.

First, there's a guy named Malcolm Peet doing research in this area. He's name is distinctive enough that a google search will pull up a lot of good stuff which is mostly written in plain English.

I don't know if you've heard of the WHO studies which showed that people dx'd with sz have dramatically better recovery rates in developing countries than developed countries. There's been a lot of speculation as to why this is so, but several researchers have noticed that in the countries with the best recovery rates, the diet includes more protein from fish, seafood, and plants as opposed to land animals and birds.

International variations in the outcome of schizophrenia and the prevalence of depression in relation to national dietary practices: an ecological analysis

Cross-national differences in diet, the outcome of schizophrenia and the prevalence of depression: you are (associated with) what you eat

Info chunk two.

Some studies and case studies have shown symptom improvement in sz and depression with the addition of fish oil. The amount of improvement seems to be associated with the medications which are taken along with the fish oil. People on no medication at all see the most improvement. The second best group is people on clozapine which is a last resort medication for those who don't succeed with any other med because it has serious side effects. The next best group is those on atypicals, followed by those on older antipsychotics.

Diet, diabetes and schizophrenia: review and hypothesis

Omega-3 Polyunsaturated FattyAcids in the Treatment of Schizophrenia

Info chunk three.

Polyunsaturated fats (PUFAs - the fats in fish and plants) are more unstable than other fats, so they oxidize more easily. For this reason it would be wise to take an antioxidant while consuming PUFAs. If you're eating a diet of fish and plants, you're no doubt getting antioxidants from your food. If you're taking fish oil capsules, it might be wise to take an antioxidant like vitamin E at the same time.

Positive association between plasma antioxidant capacity and n-3 PUFA in red blood cells from women

The effect of increased intakes of polyunsaturated fatty acids and vitamin E on DNA damage in human lymphocytes

Info chunk four.

People in the early stages of psychosis are more likely to be under oxidative stress. Several of the studies suggest adding antioxidants at the beginning of the episode to possibly help reduce duration or intensity of the episode.

Impaired antioxidant defense at the onset of psychosis (Includes: "These findings indicate a compromised antioxidant defense at the onset of psychosis, and suggest that oxidative injury might contribute to adverse developmental events in the pathogenic cascade of schizophrenia.")

Reduced antioxidant defense in early onset first-episode psychosis: a case-control study

Oxidative stress and role of antioxidant and omega-3 essential fatty acid supplementation in schizophrenia (Includes this (my bolding): "8. The patients in developed countries show higher levels of lipid peroxidation and lower levels of membrane phospholipids as compared to patients in the developing countries. 9. Initial observations on the improved outcome of schizophrenia in patients supplemented with EPUFAs and antioxidants suggest the possible beneficial effects of dietary supplementation. 10. Since the oxidative stress exists at or before the onset of psychosis the use of antioxidants from the very onset of psychosis may reduce the oxidative injury and dramatically improve the outcome of illness.")

Applying the above to my situation.

I started eating a huge amount of fish and other omega 3 heavy foods at the end of March because I hoped it would help the tendonitis in my right shoulder (it did). My son joined me in this change of diet, and I insisted he continue taking the fish oil his pdoc has recommended. Within a week I noticed subtle changes in his behavior. I kept saying to people I could see a change in him but I wasn't sure it was a change for the better.

Within two weeks I was suffering from insomnia which I tentatively linked to the fish oil. I discussed it here: http://forums.psychcentral.com/showthread.php?t=218808, including an analysis of the possibility that oxidative stress might be causing the insomnia here: http://forums.psychcentral.com/showp...8&postcount=13

Last Thursday my son was becoming more obviously paranoid, and last night he shared a delusional idea with me. I immediately went to WalMart and purchased 5 antioxidants which I saw recommended in several of the articles about oxidative stress in sz or with PUFA consumption.

Last night I had my son take vitamins A, C, and E, along with alpha lipoic acid and coenzyme Q. I have no idea if this will help, but my working hypothesis is that my son, who has been remarkably stable for over a year now, is having some kind of reaction to the dramatically increased PUFAs in his diet.

I don't think the answer is to withdraw the PUFAs, but trying to counteract the oxidative stress may help.

I find this lipid metabolism theory to be very exciting. I've read a lot about sz over the last few years, and this theory is more compelling than most IMO. It resonates with what I know of my son and his experiences. The dietary changes we've made have actually changed my son's mental state. Granted the change was not positive, but I think the fact that there's a change at all is a clue worth pursuing.

My next question: do I tell his pdoc he's struggling? I don't want a knee jerk increase in medication dosage.

you know...i dont eat fish. hm.

I know. You've mentioned your diet before, and I've been worried. If you don't want to eat fish, then you should at least consume good sources of plant-based omega 3s - leafy green vegetables, walnuts, beans, flax seed, chia, etc. According to an anecdote in The Queen of Fats, one of the populations with the highest levels of omega 3s in their blood actually eats little fish but consumes tremendous amounts of leafy greens.

Sorry, i got to this topic late. Costello, while your lipid metabolism theory is interesting, one thing I learned in nursing school is about distracting someone from their pain (turning on the tv, massages, etc.) It relies on something called the gate control theory of pain which is basically what you described with your son not feeling the cold because you thought he might have been too involved with his inner world. While I haven't done much reading or research on the matter, your topic made me think of this gate control theory. Maybe a person with schizophrenia who is actively psychotic is simply too distracted to feel pain let alone process a thousand other sensations neurotypical people take of granted.

Thanks for all the information, Costello! I haven't got the chance to read it all now, but I'll get back to it in a few months. (I'm in the midst of bar finals and there is positively no space in my brain for anything but the law!)

I had a few thoughts coming to mind as I read through your stuff, though. I'll scatter them as coherently as possible. It might help to know more about my background (briefly) - I was diagnosed with schizophrenia well on five years ago now. I have auditory and visual hallucinations, mainly, though with loads of counselling I'm always able to tell what they are. I've been forced to take nearly every drug available in my country for mental health issues (including clozapine), also had ECT; none of it worked. I managed now with only diet, therapy, supportive people, and really strict self-monitoring. Also I trained in social work whilst I was "in the system", not don't really work in that any longer.

Yes, I have heard of those studies. One thing that comes to mind based on my friends/people I used to work with in the field - especially from an Afro-Carribean background - is that non-Western cultures often have a much more positive attitude to hallucinatory and delusional experiences. Have you read or heard of a book called Hearing Voices: A Common Human Experience? It had a really interesting perspective on this.

Regarding the dietary information: It's all very interesting to me. I've long since given up on biomedical psychiatry and I'm not really concerned with finding a "why" for my experiences; I suppose part of that is because I cope very well. But I do follow a vegan diet (with occasional fish - tons of linseed/flax though, including supplements) and I credit that and the exercise I do with switching my voices from persecutory to "friendly if mildly annoying".

I recall there was some work done in the 60s and 70s about gluten intolerance and schizophrenia; I can't recall if it was ever disproven or simply abandoned, but I do find it interesting as both schizophrenia and coeliac disease run in my family and I happen to have both.

One final thing occurred to me about higher pain thresholds and schizophrenia: the "medications" they use to treat were, in my experiences, basically "brain cages". They numb you to everything. When I was taking clozapine, I broke a toe and fractured my foot in three places during a game of football and didn't even notice for six days because I was so numb. So that could certainly be a factor. I'm not as pain-tolerant now I don't take the drugs, that's certain!

I obviously can't tell you what to do about your son; I hope you work it out though. Hugs for both you and him. xx

fortunately i do. actually mostly out of that...walnuts and beans.
hm

yea i dont fish dairy or meat.
it doesnt agree with my stomach...makes me vomit.

i eat very weird ive always been told.

today i went and ate dry cheerios..then some time passed...then i ate a mini chicken sandwich...then later ate half a jar of pickled okra.

one time the only thing i ate in one day were two cans of jalapenos straight.i loved it.

i remember going to a buffet with my family once when i was 13. everyone got all this stuff needed like 1-2 plates. i got one plate full of pickles..oyster crackers and some sunflower seeds.

im always told i eat extremely odd. i also like straight black coffee..black tea..
when i was a teenager id eat paper and string.
but i liked it....still kind of do....

I just got told a really weird story by my Mum, when I was talking to her on the phone. When I was around 3 years old, I was running around the house like a hyperactive maniac as per usual. That's all I did when I wasn't drawing. And I tripped over a rug & smacked my head so hard on the tile I had an imprint of it for a few days. Evidently I didn't start crying or react to the pain at all until she started freaking out... Weird ****, man.

Hm. In regards to fishsandwich's post? You sound an awful lot like me!! Maybe it's that combination of mental resilience & healthy habits that has allowed me to latch onto so much clarity & stability? If anything, that really keeps me motivated now. So thanks for that, even though it wasn't your intention.

I'm never quite sure what my intentions are! I had a lovely boyfriend once, a Buddhist fellow, and he'd blather on about right intention etc. etc. . . . I never did get quite as much inner (or outer) peace as he did.
Anyway, I digress. I'm really happy to meet another psychotic (if I may be so bold) person who manages well. I don't meet many - perhaps I've never met one.

HAHAHA the subconscious oftentimes fights with the consciousness... So "intentions" in the purest form are difficult to comprehend. But I try to meditate & introspect as often as possible so the two understand eachother better. It causes less problems for me, except that the constant introspection is usually to a point of obsession. It's hard to manage without distracting myself. :P
Feel free to be bold! I don't get offended often. It's really nice to see that there's hope for me!! I mean, ****, you're taking the bar exam. No one survives law school unless they have serious composure... And considering your psychosis? That's incredible. I want to go into an incredibly mentally demanding profession as well & so it's really refreshing to see that. I don't think I've met many either! Mgran seems to have her **** together usually, unless she's really bad, in which she avoids the forums much like I do.

Could be, and that's certainly the interpretation I put on it while it was happening. And I have to say that insensitivity to pain is not something I've noticed in him particularly. In the course of 27 years I would probably have noticed if he had a high pain threshold I would think. On the other hand I can't remember his ever having any serious injuries as a child. No broken bones. No surgeries. No serious illnesses. No scars. Not even any bruises that I can remember. I remember he had some seriously swollen lymph nodes in his groin when he was about 6. He noticed them and brought them to my attention, but I'm not sure if he was in pain or not. (The doctor said it was because he had a lot of mosquito bites on his legs, and his immune system was in overdrive.)