Elyn Saks Ted Talks

http://www.ted.com/talks/elyn_saks_s...l_illness.html

I've said before that I don't really like this woman, but eh -- she's a schizophrenic lawyer, I had to post it

I like Prof. Saks. Her experiences seem so different from my son's, though.

I always wonder how she can remember her episodes in such detail. People compare psychosis to dreaming while awake. I forget most of my dreams.

Also, I don't understand how it is that one doesn't remember from episode to episode that the delusions are wrong. My son wrote quite a bit down during the last episode. Recently he told me he'd been reading some of that stuff, and he kept wondering what he was thinking. "What was I thinking?" he asked me. And yet, he could go back to thinking that way. I don't understand how you can understand that your thinking was flawed during an episode and then have another episode where your thinking is flawed in the same way and not recognize it.

If Prof. Saks is anything like me (which I'm prone to think she is, given that we both operate at the "high functional" end of the spectrum), she's probably used to thinking that she's usually right because she's very intelligent. So it's harder to believe that any thought you're having at any particular time might be untrue; especially so because you can always use your intelligence to come up with a way to justify a thought or belief.
I get hyper-alert when I'm delusional, too, so I see *more* evidence and blame other people's failure to make the same conclusions as me on their failure to notice all the evidence.

And as I said before, I dislike her because of her mental health policy work, not herself or her story per se.

I agree with what fish said about it. I'm definitely used to making my own decisions and relying on my own brain to know what's going on. It's like someone is trying to convince you that the sky is green when you KNOW the sky is blue. It doesn't matter that I had faulty thinking in the past, because I barely remember when it's past, and it doesn't matter that it's my mum (etc) saying the sky is green - why would she lie to me?! - I still KNOW that the sky is blue and you're not going to convince me otherwise.

*Willow*

But can't you remember that this happened before and it turned out you were wrong so maybe you're wrong this time too?

I don't know what to say, sorry, it just doesn't seem to work like that. There's just this feeling of certainty, like you can't possibly be wrong.

*Willow*

Thanks.

So, I presume that you're wrong sometimes. I imagine this happens even when you KNOW at the time that you're right. And you've been wrong in the past, I'm sure.

I don't think the process is any different from "normal wrongness", if that makes any sense.

I've never believed I was married to someone who in reality had instructed the family to call the police if I showed up and that I had four children with that person. And then held onto that belief in the face of overwhelming evidence that it was incorrect.

If I had had such a belief, then later realized I was wrong, then I started having similar beliefs and the people around me told me I was deluded - I have a hard time imagining the thought process that ignores the input telling me I'm wrong. I think that I would remember the previous incident and doubt myself a bit the second time. Particularly when the 'evidence' is just a thought that popped into my head. My son could literally mid-sentence "realize" some new information. It would just come into his head, and he'd believe it. A friend had died, for example. Or someone was being raped. Or he had a disease.

I mean, if I knew someone who was giving me really interesting gossip all the time, but most of the time the gossip turned out to be wrong, I'd stop believing that source of information. They're unreliable. This information that pops into my son's head is always wrong. So, why continue believing it?

I guess that's the part I can't wrap my head around. Having been done this path a few times, why be so sure you're right when everyone is telling you you're not?

See, I've never been that delusional. My delusions tend to border on the divide between 'just a (highly) different way of looking at the world' and 'delusional'.
Whatever your son believes, though, I imagine that he has a lot of reasons for believing what he does, whatever they may be and however false they are.

I see you've never been delusional.
Though I believe most people are delusional about something, it just never gets challenged. A close friend of mine believes he grew up in care (he didn't). Nobody challenges it because he never really brings it up, and in the end it doesn't matter.

Because when you're called schizophrenic, you get used to people not believing ANYTHING you say. Even when what you say is actually true, there's a good chance people will tell you it's false. (I had a doctor once try to convince me that I'm not Canadian, for Christ's sake.)
You can never rely on other people to tell you what is right, true, good -- anything. You learn to go it on your own, because even the people who try to help you end up torturing you (literally) much of the time.
So when you're sure you're right -- no matter how wrong you've been in the past, no matter how "unrealistic" it seems -- you keep going it on your own, because that's all there is.

Also, I don't think you'll ever understand what your son experiences if you come at it so rationally. I've never believed anything quite so dangerous as what your son does, but I can see how he'll have some kind of thought process behind them that isn't all that irrational. It just leads him to an irrational result.

If he would bother, you should get him to figure out WHY he believes those things when he does. What is the evidence that makes him believe it so? It doesn't matter how bizarre the evidence seems to you. This is what Mr. Therapist does with my delusions. I have to figure out all the patterns, then I know what's going on when I have them -- even if I still believe the stuff, it's less compelling somehow.

Thanks for the thoughtful replies, fish. I'm so stressed today, I was afraid after I posted that my questions were too aggressive.

Personally I believe we're all delusional to some extent or another. It's just that most of us are close enough to reality that we function ok.

I agree there's meaning in the delusion. I've been encouraging him to think about the meaning. Usually he already has a pretty good idea. Maybe he's saying things he's afraid to just come right out and say, so he cloaks it in all this symbolism or says things indirectly?

One problem he has is not being able to face painful realities. So he makes up an alternative he likes better. The girl didn't dump him. They're married and have kids. He has to be encouraged to face the pain and work through it.

You mostly sound like you have no idea how delusions work Also I can tell that you are a bit incredulous because you don't think you could ever be so very misguided. I think that's wrong; I'm sure you could be delusional if the right circumstances set you off. Everyone could be. Perhaps your delusion is believing that you've never been delusional

I don't know that there's always meaning in delusions. I have some odd ones that seem to come from nowhere, but maybe they have meanings I just haven't found and don't care to as they're so benign.

And when I said "find out why he believes", I don't mean 'what is the underlying meaning/find out what hurt him', I mean -- what pieces of information/fact make him conclude this delusional thing? Somewhere there will be a faulty link in the evidence, and that's where you break the delusion. Kind of like being a litigator

I can understand why it must be so frustrating for you to not understand how he can think things that seem so illogical. I've never been properly delusional to the extent where I've 100% believed my strange thoughts: there's always been a small part of me that argues with it, though usually not so successfully. For example, I can just glance at a stranger on the street and somehow KNOW that they've heard my thoughts. Now a small part of me knows that this can't happen, but that knowing feels less compelling and right than the KNOWING behind the delusion. It's in my gut - that feeling that everyone has when you know something seems to be very strong when accompanying the delusion. Even if there's a logical part saying 'hang on, people can't really read minds' that knowledge that people can't read minds doesn't feel as strongly right as the feeling accompanying the idea that they did just read my mind. I hope this makes sense; I feel like I'm rambling now

Not just schizophrenic or psychotic labels - I get the same with depression because I interpret things negatively, so nobody believes me. For example, I'll say "so-and-so said something", and I'll get "I don't think they would have meant it like that..." like I'm making it up. It's VERY frustrating! Got worse once the psychotic label was added though

That sounds like a good approach fish, I might have to try that, thanks!

Sorry you're feeling stressed costello

*Willow*

I've never found that logic convinces the ones who want to think the way they think.

I want to think the way I think and I HATE being wrong, but logic does occasionally work for me!

Logic works with my son too, but I think it demoralizes him. He's convinced he's stupid. And I'm the "smart one" in my family. Like National Merit, Mensa member, 164 IQ smart.

I personally think that kind of smart is nice, but it's not everything. IQ tests only measure a certain kind of intelligence, and probably not even the most important kind IMO.

But my sister is in awe of my intelligence. She used to talk about it quite a bit and tell my son how very, very intelligent his mother is. "Brilliant," she'd say. "Genius," she'd tell him. I really think the combination of my sister telling him how smart I am and how well I do academically and the fact that he performs poorly at academics is extremely intimidating to him. It brings out a shame reaction. He'll preface things he says to me by saying, "I know this isn't rational, but..." or "I know this doesn't make sense, but..."

I have to tread gently when I go into logic or reasoning with him. I think he sees it as my territory and he's not on his home turf. Ironically, I think the shame reaction he has contributes to his not being able to think clearly. Floods of negative emotion tend to shut down our frontal lobes, and we have less access to our reasoning skills.

My IQ was 181 when it was last tested. It's done **** all for my life except make me unpopular with almost everybody (I'm not showing off!) and (marginally) better-employed than average.

People always tell me I'm so smart, but it's not like it saved me from anything. And when I was in the nuthouse, I was held to a higher standard before I was allowed to escape, because I was "smarter" and "should know better".

Elyn Saks is in demand as a lecturer and is good at it

I am not sure how she financed Ted Talks in Europe

Professor Saks was offered a " honeymoon trip to Florence in 2010 " with all expenses paid for her and Will.

Keynote lecture by Professor Elyn Saks in Florence, Italy to a major conference of schizophrenia researchers in 2010

http://www.schizophreniaforum.org/for/vir/SIRS2010/swf/0001.html

As for her memoir

Prof Sacks starts off her memoir at a young girl in her 50's and 60's in Florida, who attended Vanderbilt University in the USA, then went to Oxford as a Rhodes scholar, And returning attended Yale Law School.and graduated.

The lecture is chronological in order and Prof Saks reads a lot from her memoir published in hardcover in 2007

Prof Saks ends the lecture reading a bit from her memoir about her romance at age 43 and marriage to Will

I loved her memoir, quite a worthwhile read.

In the 50's and 60's, probably...

She has received a lot of grants for her work; I believe a MacArthur Genius Grant was one of the many. She has her own foundation as far as I know, too. I'm fairly sure that TED talks (when you give them, not just watch them) are sponsored, and as a chaired professor in law/psychology there is also institutional support.

Yeah, I think IQ is overrated. And it used to irritate me when my sister called me a genius, because there's more to being a genius that scoring high on a test. You actually have to do some genius-like thing - which I never have. I just have some decent reasoning skills and an excellent memory. Frankly I'd have traded some of that for artistic and people skills.

Yeah, I've read her book. She's an amazing person. I've emailed her too. She told me her husband is a law librarian - like me!